Did Jesus pay for ALL sin (past, present, and future sin)?

[Guest shiloh357]

I did not raise the Apostles up above Christ. I went exactly by what scripture says.

Truth #1: Did Christ tell His Apostles and ONLY His Apostles that whoever sins they forgive, they are forgiven and whoever sins they do not forgive is not forgiven. The answer is Yes. Is that found in Scripture? The answer is yes.

John 20:22-23 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

This is not the same "forgiveness" that we get from Christ. This is not saying that if I have told a lie or committed adultery that God has transmitted His power to forgive and absolve me of those sins to a man with apostolic authority. Jesus is referring to legislative and judicial authority within the community of believers. The "forgiveness" is not spiritual absolution, but the legal and judicial authority to settle disputes among those in the believing community. In effect, what you have is a Rabbi extending rabbinic authority to His disciples. The Rabbis had the ability to "forgive" a debt or misdeed, but that authority did not extend to the level and authority held by God alone. For anyone to read into that verse that Jesus was giving them divine authority to forgive sins is nothing short of sloppy theology and poor exegesis

Truth #2: Did God give the Apostles the power and authority to heal the sick and even raise the dead? The answer is yes. Can that be shown in Scripture. The answer is yes. See the following scriptures:

Acts 3:6-7 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted [him] up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

Acts 9:40 Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

Truth #3: The Bible says that Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit and is the one who gives the Holy Spirit. Did Christ give the Apostles the authority to also give the Holy Spirit? The answer is yes, but it was done through the laying of hands. Is there scripture on that? The answer is yes.

Acts 8:18-19 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Acts 9:5-6 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Yes, but that is not power that was imparted to them as apostles. They were simply the conduits through which God exercised His power. That power is never said in Scripture to be imparted to them, personally.

So, in conclusion, I did not raise the Apostles to be greater than Christ. It was God Himself who gave them the right and power to be His adopted sons, and it was Christ Himself who gave the Apostles glory so that they would be one with Him.

He did not give them glory in the sense that they were glorified. And He did not give them glory in order for them to be one with Him. That is not what He said. He said that He had given them the glory in order that they would be one. You slightly mis-represented the passage in John. In addition, Jesus, prayer in John 17 was not merely for the apostles. According to Jesus, His prayer was for everyone who believed on His Name through their message, and that includes us today. So to apply that passage as if it was simply for the apostles is not good exegesis.

Furthermore, John 1:12 is not referring to the apostles alone, but to all who believe on Him. "To as many as received Him..."

[Guest shiloh357]

You didn't, but you didn't address anything I said either, you only posted more of your belief as if what I said meant nothing. The point is, which has to be dealt with, is scripture tells us that forgiveness of sins is only due to the cross through His shedding of His blood. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not shed any blood, only the Son.

As pointed out, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. They are three entities that are one in every way. Do you agree with the this diagram below?

There appears to be an error in your diagram. The part in the diagram that says the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God is correct. But the error is that they were never separate. To say that the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father and the Son separates them......when they are actually one. In fact, this is what the Bible says:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is a prophecy from Isaiah, and it appears that your diagram goes against this passage in the Bible because in this verse it is saying that the Son is called "Everlasting Father" (among other names).

There is the error of your belief system, believing that God sends Himself as three different entities when there are three entities, separate but one. Thinking that when scripture tells us in 1 John 5:7 they are one, that they are physically just that, one entity, is false. Scripture tells us that they are one in every way, but separate. They think the same, they believe the same, they feel the same, they agree completely, but they are not each other. Who did the Father send to be a sacrifice for sins, Himself? Who did Jesus send when He returned to the Father( Himself?), the Holy Spirit (Himself?) They are three different entities who have a bond that is perfect in every way.

Selene, scripture is very clear that Jesus came to die for our sins, not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. They all agreed that this is how it was to be done. Scripture does not contradict itself.

Jesus is the creator of all there is, therefore, the Everlasting Father. He is not the Father as in Jehovah. He is the Son,Yeshua, the Word, who through Him all things that were created was created..

Brother Onelight, if you honestly believe that Jesus Christ the Son is the ONLY Savior and Salvation, then you need to ask yourself why the Bible also calls God the Father "Saviour" (See 1 Timothy 2:3) and that salvation comes from God the Father (Psalms 68:20). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all play a role in mankind's salvation. That is why even the Father is called "Saviour" and salvation comes also from the Father. They are one. They were never separate. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that they were separate. It had always said they were one or in union. I'm now going to sleep. Good night.

Jesus is God and the Son of God, but Jesus is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. Biblically they are one God but they are separate Persons. That is the crux of the doctrine of the Trinity. We believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in essence and being, but are also three distinct Persons. This is demonstrated in Scripture. The Father sends the Son, the Son sends the Holy Spirit. They are not essentically separate, but they distinct Persons who are unified in one God.

[allofgrace]

Yet if I commit murder and I ask you to forgive me do you have capacity? I believe only God would have that capacity. I would argue that perhaps others wouldn't agree.

God bless you.

In Christ,

GE

In my post I stated that if one believed what the gospel says then the person would be able to tell them theirs sin are forgiven. No where in scripture does it say if another person forgives you of something you did to them or someone else they loved and they ask you to forgive them that God goes along with the forgiveness. I made it clear, only God can forgive sin. Not saying you implied I said that, but just wanted to make what I said clear. Have a good day.

[allofgrace]

If one speaks by the Holy Spirit, then whose words are they? Only God can forgive sin. Can God speak through you?

How did Jesus forgive sin? He spoke by the Holy Spirit.

Mat 9:1 ¶ And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city. And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man] blasphemeth. And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

What did Jesus compare here? Did he not show that saying "Arise, and walk" was the equivalent of forgiving sins?

Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Could Peter have said "In the name of Jesus Christ, thy sins be forgiven thee." ?

Incidentally Jesus told the paralytic that his sins were forgiven (aphiēmi) which is also remitted. And used the same word to tell his disciples to go and do likewise. John 20 shows Jesus giving the Holy Spirit via breathing upon them and then explains that whosoever sins that they forgive they are forgiven them. Same Greek word as was used when he healed the paralytic.

2Cr 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

That's a really interesting verse too. Hmm. I need to study this some more.

Praise God for all the discussion he provokes you guys to have! I learn so much as I go.

Actually, the Bible does say that the Holy Spirit can speak through a man.

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

So, when the Apostles went around doing miracles and forgiving sins..... I believe it was actually the Holy Spirit in them doing it rather than them.

Actually, if you read the verse you posted it says take no thought beforehand what you shall speak, neither do you premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in the hour, that speak you: for it is not you that speak, but the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Spirit giving the words, but it is the person doing the speaking. This is what is meant by their being filled with the Spirit. Filled means full and He is leading and the person is following exactly as He leads. I mention this because many are confused when the scriptures say in several different places that the same Apostle or another was filled with the Holy Spirit, it simply means that at that precise moment they are expressing the exact message that He intends for them to say. The believer has all of the Holy Spirit they will ever receive but the more one learns the scripture and applies it the more the Holy Spirit has of them. They grow in their obedience by following His leadership and that mostly is by obeying the word of God and when our actions match the word of God then we are filled with the Holy Spirit and that is the reason we responded as we did, because without Him we can do nothing, all of our good thoughts and deed originate from Him as this verse show in Phil 2:13 for it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure.

[Guest ninhao]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is a prophecy from Isaiah, and it appears that your diagram goes against this passage in the Bible because in this verse it is saying that the Son is called "Everlasting Father" (among other names). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one. They were never separate. Even Christ pointed out that He and the Father are one.

Hello Selene,

This is interesting. Can you explain how Jesus and the Father are presented as being separate( Jesus on Earth Father in Heaven etc ) in many places in the bible. For instance the Father spoke from heaven when Jesus was on Earth.

2Pe 1:17-18 KJV For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

I thought Jesus and the Father being one meant they were united in solidarity and essence etc.

[GoldenEagle]

Yet if I commit murder and I ask you to forgive me do you have capacity? I believe only God would have that capacity. I would argue that perhaps others wouldn't agree.

God bless you.

In Christ,

GE

In my post I stated that if one believed what the gospel says then the person would be able to tell them theirs sin are forgiven. No where in scripture does it say if another person forgives you of something you did to them or someone else they loved and they ask you to forgive them that God goes along with the forgiveness. I made it clear, only God can forgive sin. Not saying you implied I said that, but just wanted to make what I said clear. Have a good day.

I was just clarifying brother. I understood this in bold from your posts. However, there are quite a few people reading this thread by the thread count that aren't posting. And others have implied or even argued differently than your comment in bold as you are aware.

Some of the things we do on the site as Servants is attempt to help guide those who are new to the faith and struggling regarding God's Word I'm sure you can understand.

God bless you!

In Christ,

Jon/GE

[OneLight]

You didn't, but you didn't address anything I said either, you only posted more of your belief as if what I said meant nothing. The point is, which has to be dealt with, is scripture tells us that forgiveness of sins is only due to the cross through His shedding of His blood. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not shed any blood, only the Son.

As pointed out, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. They are three entities that are one in every way. Do you agree with the this diagram below?

There appears to be an error in your diagram. The part in the diagram that says the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God is correct. But the error is that they were never separate. To say that the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father and the Son separates them......when they are actually one. In fact, this is what the Bible says:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is a prophecy from Isaiah, and it appears that your diagram goes against this passage in the Bible because in this verse it is saying that the Son is called "Everlasting Father" (among other names).

There is the error of your belief system, believing that God sends Himself as three different entities when there are three entities, separate but one. Thinking that when scripture tells us in 1 John 5:7 they are one, that they are physically just that, one entity, is false. Scripture tells us that they are one in every way, but separate. They think the same, they believe the same, they feel the same, they agree completely, but they are not each other. Who did the Father send to be a sacrifice for sins, Himself? Who did Jesus send when He returned to the Father( Himself?), the Holy Spirit (Himself?) They are three different entities who have a bond that is perfect in every way.

Selene, scripture is very clear that Jesus came to die for our sins, not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. They all agreed that this is how it was to be done. Scripture does not contradict itself.

Jesus is the creator of all there is, therefore, the Everlasting Father. He is not the Father as in Jehovah. He is the Son,Yeshua, the Word, who through Him all things that were created was created..

Brother Onelight, if you honestly believe that Jesus Christ the Son is the ONLY Savior and Salvation, then you need to ask yourself why the Bible also calls God the Father "Saviour" (See 1 Timothy 2:3) and that salvation comes from God the Father (Psalms 68:20). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all play a role in mankind's salvation. That is why even the Father is called "Saviour" and salvation comes also from the Father. They are one. They were never separate. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that they were separate. It had always said they were one or in union. I'm now going to sleep. Good night.

1 Timothy does not say God the Father, it says "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior". You are adding to scripture to back your personal belief.

You cannot take the way one was saved in the OT and apply it to how one is saved during this age. That is just wrong exegesis. We do not wait in paradise for Christ to come and preach salvation to us. Yet, if you notice, they were not saved until Jesus preached salvation to them, salvation through Him.

John 14:6 states: "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

We also read in John 5:31-23 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." If the Father has committed all judgment to the Son, who else is there that can forgive, for in order to forgive, one has to judge there was sin.

Being one does not mean they do the same things. You are adding this without scriptural backing. You have been shown over and over with scripture that forgiveness and salvation comes only through the Son.

[allofgrace]

I believe that Selene is right about God the Father and Jesus both being referred to as God our Savior as in

1 Tim 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Titus 2:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It would be hard to say that both of these verses are not saying that both the Father and the Son are called Savior. The Titus passage is the strongest of the two in its wording but both seem to be pretty clear that both are referred to as Savior, at least to me. V4 says when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior. Not to mention that the OT has several more that I believe would say the same.

Edited February 28, 2013 by allofgrace

[Guest ninhao]

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is a prophecy from Isaiah, and it appears that your diagram goes against this passage in the Bible because in this verse it is saying that the Son is called "Everlasting Father" (among other names). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one. They were never separate. Even Christ pointed out that He and the Father are one.

Hello Selene,

This is interesting. Can you explain how Jesus and the Father are presented as being separate( Jesus on Earth Father in Heaven etc ) in many places in the bible. For instance the Father spoke from heaven when Jesus was on Earth.

2Pe 1:17-18 KJV For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

I thought Jesus and the Father being one meant they were united in solidarity and essence etc.

Hello Ninhao,

The Father and Son are never separate. The Bible says that they are one, united, in union, or in a relationship, but the Bible never said nor indicate that they were separate. I think that our concept or idea of "separate" is not the same as God's definition. For example, God always pointed out that husband and wife are one. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say they are separate. Yet, humans see them as separate. The Bible always says that Christ and His Church (His Bride) are one. And when the Apostle Paul persecuted the Church, Christ came to Him and said "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" Christ never said, "Why are you persecuting the Church? - which is really what Paul was doing. But to God, He and His Church are one and not separate.

Isaiah said that the Son to be born will be named "Wonder-Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace. The Son is named or called the Everlasting Father, and the "Counselor". Counselor is another name for the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

What should be most interesting is the fact that Isaiah says that the NAME of the Son is "Wonder-Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Prince." To the Jewish people, the name of a person is extremely important. There is a lot of significance in a person's name and their name is a big deal. For example, when God's changes Abram's name to Abraham or Saul's name to Paul, this name change is a significant thing. In fact, the name of God is so significant to the Jewish people that they only pronounce His name once a year - during Yom Kippur. So, for Isaiah to say that the Son's name is "Wonder-Counselor (Holy Spirit), Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace" indicates the nature of the Messiah who was to come. The passage tells us that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not separate. They may be distinct only in that one is the Father, the other the Son, and the other the Holy Spirit.......but all three are one and not separate (as humans tend to see with their limited and fallible vision).

And God's nature was never an easy one to explain. Because the Bible calls the Son and the Father a "Savior", then I believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all took part in the entire salvation of mankind......but this is something that cannot be explained easily despite the fact that Scripture calls the Father a Savior. It is just something that comes from "faith." And "faith" needs no explanation.

Ok thank you Selene. From your comparison to husband and wife being "one" now I can understand your perspective. Although they are one they still have separate bodies and can be in separate places. Is this the position you hold concerning Jesus and the Father ? I suppose the crux of my question is do you believe our Father was in Heaven while Jesus was on Earth ?

[OneLight]

1 Timothy does not say God the Father, it says "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior". You are adding to scripture to back your personal belief.

You cannot take the way one was saved in the OT and apply it to how one is saved during this age. That is just wrong exegesis. We do not wait in paradise for Christ to come and preach salvation to us. Yet, if you notice, they were not saved until Jesus preached salvation to them, salvation through Him.

John 14:6 states: "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

We also read in John 5:31-23 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." If the Father has committed all judgment to the Son, who else is there that can forgive, for in order to forgive, one has to judge there was sin.

Being one does not mean they do the same things. You are adding this without scriptural backing. You have been shown over and over with scripture that forgiveness and salvation comes only through the Son.

Everything in the Bible is the word of God and that includes the Old Testament. I'm sure that you agree that both the Old and New Testament are the word of God. Also, I never said that they do the same things. I said that all three took part in the entire salvation of mankind. They all took part in the entire salvation of mankind because the Son cannot do anything without the Father.

Everything in scripture is the word of God, but that is not the issues we are discussing. But before we continue, tell me, do you follow all the 613 laws in the OT since it is the included in the word of God and is His commandments?

John 5:19-21 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Why did you stop before the end? The rest of this passage reads, as I posted before:

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." The Father, according to His word, no longer judges. This is plain and simple to understand. They do not do everything, though they are capable. Each has their own purpose, though they are in full agreement. You never addressed the fact that the Father remained in heaven while Christ came to this world. Why do you think that is? IF they both do the same things, why didn't the Father die on the cross instead of the Son? Could it be “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”?

This is why I said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not separate. They were never separate. They were always one, united, in union, and always in a relationship. When a person is one and in union with God, they behave as He is. A person separated from God is a sinner. Thus, the Son could never be separated from the Father. This is also the reason why Jesus' name is translated to mean "Yahweh saves." Yahweh is the name of the Hebrew God in the Old Testament.

Nobody but you are saying that people think they are separate in the sense that they have different beliefs. We are saying that they have different things, or responsibilities, they fulfill, and one does not do what the other is doing. I have pointed this out before. Did you not read it?