WWII was a mistake

[Jon The Jew]

We're also forgetting that Wake island was attacked the very next day. So if Pearl Harbor had been defended, Wake Island would still have been attacked.

Either way, the Japanese offensive was inevitable.

Let me make a correction, it was Hong Kong the next day, the British surrendered. Then Gaum on Dec. 10th and 11th, and finally Wake on Dec. 28th.

Pearl Harbor or not, we were going to be attacked.

[Scudbuddy]

Preposterous or not it's the truth.

Unfortunately the military and the pentagon could not imagine a "Surprise Attack" of that magnitude. I do agree with the info they had, they should have been able to figure it out.

Not only could they imagine it, but they knew it was going to happen. Prior to the start of WWII only a few ships were allowed in harbor at the same time. Additionally the main naval base was not at Pearl Harbor, because moving ships that far forward left them open to attack.

FDR willing put all his eggs in one basket so to speak against the advice of his generals and also moved the fleet headquarters to Pearl Harbor. FDR engineered Pearl Harbor because up until Pearl Harbor 70% of Americans wanted to stay out of the war.

FDR would have had to have had cooperation from the military, intelligence and fellow politicians. Somebody would have talked and shown proof. No military man in his right mind is going to allow that to happen. Get a grip.

And he only needed one man to die to stir the nation to war. 3000 men, 4 battleships sunk, 4 severely damaged, almost all of our planes lined up in a row to be destroyed and our ability to wage war just about gone. Yeah, he set it up to be slaughtered. And all he needed was one man to die to get the point across.

Prepostorous.

[Steff]

Lets look at the events leading up to the event:

Warnings do no harm and might do inexpressible good

27 January 1941, Dr. Ricardo Shreiber, the Peruvian envoy in Tokyo told Max Bishop, third secretary of the US embassy that he had just learned from his intelligence sources that there was a war plan involving a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. This information was sent to the State Department and Naval Intelligence and to Admiral Kimmel at Hawaii.

31 March 1941 - A Navy report by Bellinger and Martin predicted that if Japan made war on the US, they would strike Pearl Harbor without warning at dawn with aircraft from a maximum of 6 carriers. For years Navy planners had assumed that Japan, on the outbreak of war, would strike the American fleet wherever it was. The fleet was the only threat to Japan's plans. Logically, Japan couldn't engage in any major operation with the American fleet on its flank. The strategic options for the Japanese were not unlimited.

10 July - US Military Attache Smith-Hutton at Tokyo reported Japanese Navy secretly practicing aircraft torpedo attacks against capital ships in Ariake Bay. The bay closely resembles Pearl Harbor.

July - The US Military Attache in Mexico forwarded a report that the Japanese were constructing special small submarines for attacking the American fleet in Pearl Harbor, and that a training program then under way included towing them from Japan to positions off the Hawaiian Islands, where they practiced surfacing and submerging.

10 August 1941, the top British agent, code named "Tricycle", Dusko Popov, told the FBI of the planned attack on Pearl Harbor and that it would be soon. The FBI told him that his information was "too precise, too complete to be believed. The questionnaire plus the other information you brought spell out in detail exactly where, when, how, and by whom we are to be attacked. If anything, it sounds like a trap." He also reported that a senior Japanese naval person had gone to Taranto to collect all secret data on the attack there and that it was of utmost importance to them. The info was given to Naval IQ.

Early in the Fall, Kilsoo Haan, an agent for the Sino-Korean People's League, told Eric Severeid of CBS that the Korean underground in Korea and Japan had positive proof that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor before Christmas. Among other things, one Korean had actually seen the plans. In late October, Haan finally convinced US Senator Guy Gillette that the Japanese were planning to attack. Gillette alerted the State Department, Army and Navy Intelligence and FDR personally.

24 September 1941, the "bomb plot" message in J-19 code from Japan Naval Intelligence to Japan' s consul general in Honolulu requesting grid of exact locations of ships pinpointed for the benefit of bombardiers and torpedo pilots was deciphered. There was no reason to know the EXACT location of ships in harbor, unless to attack them - it was a dead giveaway. Chief of War Plans Turner and Chief of Naval Operations Stark repeatedly kept it and warnings based on it prepared by Safford and others from being passed to Hawaii. The chief of Naval Intelligence Captain Kirk was replaced because he insisted on warning HI. It was lack of information like this that lead to the exoneration of the Hawaii commanders and the blaming of Washington for unpreparedness for the attack by the Army Board and Navy Court. At no time did the Japanese ever ask for a similar bomb plot for any other American military installation. Why the Roosevelt administration allowed flagrant Japanese spying on PH has never been explained, but they blocked 2 Congressional investigations in the fall of 1941 to allow it to continue. The bomb plots were addressed to "Chief of 3rd Bureau, Naval General Staff", marked Secret Intelligence message, and given special serial numbers, so their significance couldn't be missed. There were about 95 ships in port. The text was:

"Strictly secret.

"Henceforth, we would like to have you make reports concerning vessels

along the following lines insofar as possible:

"1. The waters (of Pearl Harbor) are to be divided roughly into five

subareas (We have no objections to your abbreviating as much as you

like.)

"Area A. Waters between Ford Island and the Arsenal.

"Area B. Waters adjacent to the Island south and west of Ford Island.

(This area is on the opposite side of the Island from Area A.)

"Area C. East Loch.

"Area D. Middle Loch.

"Area E. West Loch and the communication water routes.

"2. With regard to warships and aircraft carriers, we would like to have

you report on those at anchor (these are not so important) tied up at

wharves, buoys and in docks. (Designate types and classes briefly. If

possible we would like to have you make mention of the fact when

there are two or more vessels along side the same wharf.)"

Simple traffic analysis of the accelerated frequency of messages from various Japanese consuls gave a another identification of war preparations, from Aug-Dec there were 6 messages from Seattle, 18 from Panama, 55 from Manila and 68 from Hawaii.

Oct. - Soviet top spy Richard Sorge, the greatest spy in history, informed Kremlin that Pearl Harbor would be attacked within 60 days. Moscow informed him that this was passed to the US. Interestingly, all references to Pearl Harbor in the War Department's copy of Sorge's 32,000 word confession to the Japanese were deleted. NY Daily News, 17 May 1951.

16 Oct. - FDR grossly humiliated Japan's Ambassador and refused to meet with Premier Konoye to engineer the war party, lead by General Tojo, into power in Japan.

1 Nov. - JN-25 Order to continue drills against anchored capital ships to prepare to "ambush and completely destroy the US enemy." The message included references to armor-piercing bombs and 'near surface torpedoes.'

13 Nov. - The German Ambassador to US, Dr. Thomsen an anti-Nazi, told US IQ that Pearl Harbor would be attacked.

14 Nov. - Japanese Merchant Marine was alerted that wartime recognition signals would be in effect Dec 1.

22 Nov. - Tokyo said to Ambassador Nomura in Washington about extending the deadline for negotiations to November 29: "...this time we mean it, that the deadline absolutely cannot be changed. After that things are automatically going to happen."

CIA Director Allen Dulles told people after the war that US was warned in mid-November 1941 that the Japanese Fleet had sailed east past Tokyo Bay and was going to attack Pearl Harbor. CIA FOIA

23 Nov. - JN25 order - "The first air attack has been set for 0330 hours on X-day." (Tokyo time or 8 A.M. Honolulu time)

25 Nov. - British decrypted the Winds setup message sent Nov. 19. The US decoded it Nov. 28. It was a J-19 Code message that there would be an attack and that the signal would come over Radio Tokyo as a weather report - rain meaning war, east (Higashi) meaning US.

25 Nov. - Secretary of War Stimson noted in his diary "FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next Monday." FDR asked: "the question was how we should maneuver them into the position of firing the first shot without too much danger to ourselves. In spite of the risk involved, however, in letting the Japanese fire the first shot, we realized that in order to have the full support of the American people it was desirable to make sure that the Japanese be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in anyone's mind as to who were the aggressors."

25 Nov. - Navy Department ordered all US trans-Pacific shipping to take the southern route. PHH 12:317 (PHH = 1946 Congressional Report, vol. 12, page 317) ADM Turner testified "We sent the traffic down to the Torres Straight, so that the track of the Japanese task force would be clear of any traffic." PHH 4:1942

25 Nov. - Yamamoto radioed this order in JN-25: " (a) The task force, keeping its movements strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters and upon the very opening of hostilities, shall attack the main force of the United States Fleet in Hawaii and deal it a mortal blow. The raid is planned for dawn on X-day -- exact date to be given by later order. (b) Should the negotiations with the US prove successful, the task force shall hold itself in readiness forthwith to return and reassemble.

[Jon The Jew]

Yet WWII was a good thing?

You've still ignored the fact Japan had planned to attack Hong Kong, Guam, and Wake Island even before Pearl Harbor. WWII would have happened for us even if it never happened. Pearl Harbor was just an act of damaging us so they could invade said islands without threat of our navy. Either way, they would have invaded.

[Steff]

At the very least FDR could have pulled the troops off the ships. Instead he chose to allow 2400+ people to die.

WWII wasn't a mistake, but the deaths drawing us into it was.

I never denied Japan attacked us first, but I am saying we knew it was going to happen and the president purposely sacrificed lives to gavanize public opinion. There are literally over 50 pieces of information indicating this.

[Guest yod]

Public opinion would have been just as galvanized if we had met them miles off of Pearl Harbor.

My debate skills are fine but I don't wish to debate with someone so devoid of reality.

And I didn't call you any names...but that fact doesn't seem to matter either (again). Can someone tell me where you find "a name" in this quote;

and obviously the facts aren't going to change you opinions either

So did they treat you well in jail yesterday? 

[Steff]

Public opinion would have been just as galvanized if we had met them miles off of Pearl Harbor.

That is supposition.

What's funny Yod is that you almost never attack the argument but rely on attacking the person.

You are very fond of using words and phrases like:

Ludicrous

Crazy

Devoid of Reality

Clueless

Ect,Ect,Ect.

That shows to me and I'm sure most other people here that your debate skills are at the very least lacking and at best not being used because you prefer to bait people by attempting to insult them. I refuse to fall into that trap. Why don't you actually come back with a rebuttal of evidence?

Maybe it's because your position you have taken is utterly indefensible, sort of like the neo-con platform.

Truth be told I could get a better, more reasonable, more thought out argument out of a piece of firewood.

[Guest yod]

Public opinion would have been just as galvanized if we had met them miles off of Pearl Harbor

That is supposition.

as is your supposition that America would not have been galvanized without the destruction of the Pacific Fleet and thousands of sailors.

What's funny Yod is that you almost never attack the argument but rely on attacking the person.

Again I ask...where did I attack you? I attacked your arguement....your supposition.

You are very fond of using words and phrases like:

Ludicrous

Crazy

Devoid of Reality

Clueless

I have never used the word "clueless". Those other words are ADJECTIVES which describe your suppositions. A name is not an adjective.

That shows to me and I'm sure most other people here that your debate skills are at the very least lacking and at best not being used because you prefer to bait people by attempting to insult them. I refuse to fall into that trap. Why don't you actually come back with a rebuttal of evidence?

Why don't you try and prove that America wouldn't have been just as galvanized by defending ourselves OFFSHORE of Hawaii?

you are using "evidence" like Michael Moore does. You take pieces of evidence known only after the fact and portray them as if they were known before the fact.

Anyone could be mischaracterized in that way.

I have proven your supposition wrong and everyone knows it but you and the other conspiracy theorists.

Maybe it's because your position you have taken is utterly indefensible, sort of like the neo-con platform.

No...it's just that these things are so obvious that if you can't see them, I can't help you.

Truth be told I could get a better, more reasonable, more thought out argument out of a piece of firewood.

you might as well...no one else is listening to your wild assertions.

snap, crackle, pop!

[Steff]

I never said the American Public wouldn't be outraged had 2400+ people not been killed. But FDR purposely let 2400+ die because he knew there would be no chance of a reaction other than anger by the American public. Twarting attack by the Japanese may have just reinforced the public opinion that staying out of the war was the right idea and that the American military could handle the threat of Japan without going to war with Germany.

you might as well...no one else is listening to your wild assertions.

I rest my case Yod. Your childish debate tactics show that you are not capable of defending your position without attacking the person you disagree with.

Sad.

[other one]

Steff, you're wasting your time agruing with these guys, just post your inforamtion and let all the others that read it do so and make up their own minds. Don't frustrate yourself for they have their own reasons to believe what they do. Ultimately it will come to light and all will be known without doubt.

It all depends on this election. Do the american people agree with what George Bush and his administration have done. For only then will the rest of the world know our Nations heart and deal with it accordingly.

May God have mercy on us all.

Edited October 11, 2004 by other one