mizzdy Posted May 3, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted May 3, 2012 I always found it interesting at how many people who say "well Jesus didnt defend himself" as a reason that we shouldnt protect ourselves. The very same Jesus who chased the money launderers out of of the temple with a whip. The Jesus, who is the Son of God, who is fully God and fully man, who sent the Isrealites to war numerous times and told them to wipe out everyone in the land. Jesus offered Himself up-in that case, defending yourself would be counter productive. Goes back to ecclesiastes, there is a time and a place for everything-Jesus sacrificing himself has nothing to do with whether one should defend themselves or not, or whether a country should go to war or not. God isnt calling to go out to war with people these days, the only war we are engaged in right now is the spiritual one. But that doesnt mean we cannot defend ourselves and our country when necessary. What I liked about Marks account of this is that it seems Yeshua saw the money changers the day before and returned the next day and drove them out. If thats the case that is premeditated, showing that He is the only one who can take vengence on those who wrong Yahweh. Just thought that was interesting. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted May 3, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,711 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,528 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted May 3, 2012 How do you know God doesnt call countries to war? Just because He no longer speaks in visions or lead with giant pillars of fire doesnt mean God isnt involved with war. Secondly, yes we should leave vengeance to the Lord, but theres a difference between vengence and defending oneself, ones family, and country, from threats both at home and abroad. There is also a difference between vengeance and justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldzimm Posted May 3, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 85 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,874 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 348 Days Won: 12 Joined: 03/10/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/08/1955 Share Posted May 3, 2012 How could one be a martyr with a gun? "Remember the Alamo" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncran Posted May 4, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 4, 2012 the battaan death march. many a battlefields of soldiers that died in and were in heaps in the civil war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted May 4, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,711 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,528 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted May 4, 2012 How could one be a martyr with a gun? "Remember the Alamo" lol oldzimm though to address this, it goes back to time and place-defending ones country from terrorism, isnt necessarily what I would call persecution, nor defending yourself from the guy breaking into your house to kidnap your kid in the middle of the night-chances are they dont even care whether your a christian or not. Neither does that car jacker. . .there is a difference between someone putting a gun to your head and saying "give up God or else" and someone putting a gun to your head and saying that their taking your kid away from you just cuz they want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted May 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted May 4, 2012 How do you know God doesnt call countries to war? Just because He no longer speaks in visions or lead with giant pillars of fire doesnt mean God isnt involved with war. Secondly, yes we should leave vengeance to the Lord, but theres a difference between vengence and defending oneself, ones family, and country, from threats both at home and abroad. There is also a difference between vengeance and justice. Why did God all the Israelites to fight those around them? It wasnt just because land it was because God wanted them to have a fighting chance, so to speak. Yahweh wanted as least intrusion into this newly formed group, He wanted them to be free from the idolatry of those already in the nation. As the years went on David achieved a 'peace' and they prospered yet even when any king, judge or leader went out to war without His premission things went south pretty guickly. Why would He calls anyone to war these days? What righteous war does God need us to fight physically? I can see Israel and all of us who support those in the land going to war to protect their land, Gods land really. I can see America or any country protecting their borders, I can see countries protecting those who cannot do so for themselves. But God calling us to war? Somehow I just dont see that going on right now, do you think He still is calling us to war with others and for what reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted May 4, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,711 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,528 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Good question-the answer is we dont, but neither did most of the israelites at the time. Hindsight is 20/20 its easy to look back and see why, especially when its written down. We cant see the big picture we dont even know exactly what Gods doing in our lives half the time. But we do know God has a plan-and I think sometimes that includes war. You say how do u know that Gods calling to war-well I say how do you know He doesnt. The answer is without knowing Gods will in the big picture, neither of us can answer that question with 100% certainty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldzimm Posted May 4, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 85 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,874 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 348 Days Won: 12 Joined: 03/10/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/08/1955 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Good question-the answer is we dont, but neither did most of the israelites at the time. Hindsight is 20/20 its easy to look back and see why, especially when its written down. We cant see the big picture we dont even know exactly what Gods doing in our lives half the time. But we do know God has a plan-and I think sometimes that includes war. You say how do u know that Gods calling to war-well I say how do you know He doesnt. The answer is without knowing Gods will in the big picture, neither of us can answer that question with 100% certainty Good answer How could one be a martyr with a gun? "Remember the Alamo" lol oldzimm though to address this, it goes back to time and place-defending ones country from terrorism, isnt necessarily what I would call persecution, nor defending yourself from the guy breaking into your house to kidnap your kid in the middle of the night-chances are they dont even care whether your a christian or not. Neither does that car jacker. . .there is a difference between someone putting a gun to your head and saying "give up God or else" and someone putting a gun to your head and saying that their taking your kid away from you just cuz they want to. Actually it was a simple answer to a simple question, a person(s) doesn't have to be persecuted in order to be called a martyr. God is outside of time, so way should I stick to the present to give an answer. The Battle of the Alamo is a good example of armed men becoming martyrs. The Battle of the Alamo was a 13-day siege by the Mexican Army (February 23 – March 6, 1836). The Mexican Army had 2400 men, the Men at the Alamo numbered 260 at best. The men at the Alamo were given a choice to leave or stay and surely die. The men knew that the longer they could hold off Santa Anna's Army, the more time the Texan Army had to muster up more recruits. If my memory serves me right, all the men stayed and all but two died at the Alamo. The brave men of the Alamo were a good example of what Jesus said in John 15:13. English Standard Version (ESV) Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. So were the men at the Alamo martyrs? You bet they were, When Sam Houston's Texan Army attacked Santa Anna's Army in April 21, 1836, at the Battle of San Jacinto, the rally cry of the Texans was "REMEMBER THE ALAMO". Santa Anna's Army didn't stand a chance, I believe they were caught by surprise and the rest is history, Texans won their independence. Bottom line, The Texans were greatly out numbered in their fight for independence, I truly believe that is was by God's grace they won. God played a big role in the freedom of Texas. The exact same thing can be said about the USA's battle for independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted May 4, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,711 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,528 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Yes, very good example. Another example I think that God may have called a country to war was America in WW ll. Hitler was on a crusade to take over the world and kill any minority he thought was inferior, that included the Jews which were Gods chosen people, and promised Gods protection. America was going to sit it out-but as history pointed out chances are britain and russia wouldnt of been able to stop hitler. It wasnt until japan attacked pearl harbor that america got involved-in a way that may have been americas wake up call, because several of japans top generals thought that it was a bad idea and japan did it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncran Posted May 5, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 5, 2012 Good question-the answer is we dont, but neither did most of the israelites at the time. Hindsight is 20/20 its easy to look back and see why, especially when its written down. We cant see the big picture we dont even know exactly what Gods doing in our lives half the time. But we do know God has a plan-and I think sometimes that includes war. You say how do u know that Gods calling to war-well I say how do you know He doesnt. The answer is without knowing Gods will in the big picture, neither of us can answer that question with 100% certainty Good answer How could one be a martyr with a gun? "Remember the Alamo" lol oldzimm though to address this, it goes back to time and place-defending ones country from terrorism, isnt necessarily what I would call persecution, nor defending yourself from the guy breaking into your house to kidnap your kid in the middle of the night-chances are they dont even care whether your a christian or not. Neither does that car jacker. . .there is a difference between someone putting a gun to your head and saying "give up God or else" and someone putting a gun to your head and saying that their taking your kid away from you just cuz they want to. Actually it was a simple answer to a simple question, a person(s) doesn't have to be persecuted in order to be called a martyr. God is outside of time, so way should I stick to the present to give an answer. The Battle of the Alamo is a good example of armed men becoming martyrs. The Battle of the Alamo was a 13-day siege by the Mexican Army (February 23 – March 6, 1836). The Mexican Army had 2400 men, the Men at the Alamo numbered 260 at best. The men at the Alamo were given a choice to leave or stay and surely die. The men knew that the longer they could hold off Santa Anna's Army, the more time the Texan Army had to muster up more recruits. If my memory serves me right, all the men stayed and all but two died at the Alamo. The brave men of the Alamo were a good example of what Jesus said in John 15:13. English Standard Version (ESV) Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. So were the men at the Alamo martyrs? You bet they were, When Sam Houston's Texan Army attacked Santa Anna's Army in April 21, 1836, at the Battle of San Jacinto, the rally cry of the Texans was "REMEMBER THE ALAMO". Santa Anna's Army didn't stand a chance, I believe they were caught by surprise and the rest is history, Texans won their independence. Bottom line, The Texans were greatly out numbered in their fight for independence, I truly believe that is was by God's grace they won. God played a big role in the freedom of Texas. The exact same thing can be said about the USA's battle for independence. president lincoln, then a senator, said that was an illegal war that we started. we invaded that mexican soil. Lincoln contended that the disputed territory between the Nueces River and the Rio Grande only belonged to Texas where her jurisdiction had been clearly established, and he did not think it extended to the Rio Grande. "It is a fact, that the United States Army, in marching to the Rio Grande, marched into a peaceful Mexican settlement, and frightened the inhabitants away from their homes and their growing crops," Lincoln said. In his "Spot" resolutions of 1847, he called on Polk for proof of the president's insistence that the war began when Mexicans shed American blood on American soil "That soil was not ours; and Congress did not annex or attempt to annex it." Lincoln voted for a resolution that declared the war unnecessary and accused Polk of violating the Constitution in commencing it. He nonetheless voted to supply the American army and he did not support legislation that would have prohibited acquiring territory from Mexico as part of a peace settlement lol a RON PAUL OF THAT ERA.http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/biography4text.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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