Killing And The Christian

[Bold Believer]

@Gdemoss I love it when people emphasise new testament standards, and assume that since Jesus "did away with" the old covenant that the OT no longer counts, and its false. The God of thr OT is the same God in The NT. And Jesus didnt come to do away with the law but to fulfil the law. The apostle Paul said that the law was in place so that we know what sin is. And its also in the NT that all sctipture is God breathed and to be used for teaching and reproof. Im on my cell here and having a hard time looking stuff up but when I get home tonight ill post the exact scripture references.

Paul also stated that if he had done any wrong, he was willing to die. This tells me that he believed in the governmental/corporate right to exact the Justice of God. Self-defense and the defense of the helpless is also considered in the laws of most civilized countries, a holdover from the days when Christian principles were highly esteemed.

This thread has in its roots the misunderstanding of corporate versus individual. Corporately as a people, a nations' authorities (be they elected or appointed) carry the justice-sword of God to use against those who do evil. Individually, we as people have the right to defend ourselves, our families and those who are unable to defend themselves against evil.

[gdemoss]

Patriot & Bold Believer: I understand your positions concerning scripture. Especially the part about Paul saying that he refuses not to die as neither would I, what I don't see is anything that clearly shows that it is Christians who are the ones running the government and doling out the death to those who are worthy of it. Instead I see an exact separation of church and state where the church is the church and the state is run by unbelieving gentiles who need prayer that they might come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved. As Paul had made abundantly clear that prayer be made first and foremost for our governing officials for this exact purpose. Why pray for salvation for those who are not in need of it?

<< 1 Timothy 2 >>

King James Version

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

When you read this, you don't seem to see the reason he request the prayer for these men. If our leadership truly came to a knowledge of the truth and became saved me who preach and teach the gospel of God we would be able to lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty, but it isn't happening. Instead we have leadership who are living in unbelief supporting the murder of unborn babies and a man right to fornicate openly without rebuke. They trouble our nation as a whole.

Gary

[lesjude]

It is ANZAC Day in Australia and New Zealand, where we gather together and remember those who fought and died so that we could live in freedom. LEST WE FORGET. The freedom you enjoy, lesjude, was bought at a price. If you don't like it, move to some country where the military hasn't fought for your freedom, and see how you like it.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young.

Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.

They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,

They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:

Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning,

We will remember them.

LEST WE FORGET.

Excellent Post.

Jesus bled and died for the freedom of Christians. One of those freedoms is to be citizens in His kingdom which entitles us to His protection at all times. Please see Psalm 91. He also sets us free from worshiping a false religion, nationalism. He gives us the right and authority to be sons and daughters of the King by adoption which includes being conformed to the fullness and stature of Christ.

Who would Jesus shoot or have His citizens shoot.?

[The_Patriot21]

2 Timothy 3:16 ¹⁶ All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Thats all scripture, Old Testament included.

Matthew 5:17

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them

As stated right there, Christ didnt come to abolish the law, or the prophets-but to fulfill it. It doesnt say "the law is gone, so you can now ignore the principles of the law and forget the Old testament"

Romans 7:7

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet

The law is there so that we know what sin is. Im not talking about whether we should pray for our government-thats a given we should, but if its a matter of whether we should kill or not, well we should never kill out of cold blood-but in the case of self defense like posted in the christians and guns section in apologetics or capitol punishment-I see nothing anti-Biblical about either, as they were both in the Old testament, in the Bible, often God commanded. Does Jesus in the NT go out and specifically say you can defend your family if someone invades your home? or you can punish someone to death if they commit and are convicted of a horrible crime? no, but why would He need to if He already did in the Old testament. Jesus came to fulfill the law-and the prophecies-not add to them, and not repeat them. Im not talking about christian persecution-Im talking about defending your daughter from that hoodlum that broke into your home in the middle of the night to kidnap her, Im talking about that serial killer on death row whos been convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt by a jury of his peers.

[gdemoss]

2 Timothy 3:16 ¹⁶ All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Thats all scripture, Old Testament included.

Matthew 5:17

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them

As stated right there, Christ didnt come to abolish the law, or the prophets-but to fulfill it. It doesnt say "the law is gone, so you can now ignore the principles of the law and forget the Old testament"

Romans 7:7

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet

The law is there so that we know what sin is. Im not talking about whether we should pray for our government-thats a given we should, but if its a matter of whether we should kill or not, well we should never kill out of cold blood-but in the case of self defense like posted in the christians and guns section in apologetics or capitol punishment-I see nothing anti-Biblical about either, as they were both in the Old testament, in the Bible, often God commanded. Does Jesus in the NT go out and specifically say you can defend your family if someone invades your home? or you can punish someone to death if they commit and are convicted of a horrible crime? no, but why would He need to if He already did in the Old testament. Jesus came to fulfill the law-and the prophecies-not add to them, and not repeat them. Im not talking about christian persecution-Im talking about defending your daughter from that hoodlum that broke into your home in the middle of the night to kidnap her, Im talking about that serial killer on death row whos been convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt by a jury of his peers.

Where we are in disagreement comes from the statement that we are expected to know sin by the law. Paul stated that he did not know sin but by the law which is true. There are other references to knowledge of sin being by the law. But as for the final authority on what is and is not sin, it isn't in the law. Many live in sin ignorantly because they believe that to be true. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness as he is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh. Christ came and magnified the law. Can you prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can righteously declare who should die and who should receive mercy by the OT or NT teachings? A man in the OT was put to death for collecting sticks on the Sabbath because it was against the law, yet the disciples were given a free pass by Christ though they picked and ate corn on the Sabbath which was unlawful for them to do. How do you decide who lives and who dies? Romans states that anyone who disobeys their parents is worthy of death and the OT agrees with this position. Will you kill your children for disobeying you? Would you think evil of the authorities if they killed your children for disobeying you? Exclusion of the weightier matters of the law is unrighteousness. Deciding who lives and dies must be left up to God and understood in clear directives from him. I have received no such clear directive to kill anyone. You think you have. We shall both appear before the judgment seat of Christ. I refuse to judge anything before the time but you may if you feel comfortable doing so.

Gary

[The_Patriot21]

Granted Gdemoss, God defines what sin is, but without the law, we would not know what sin is and it was instituted by God for that reason. As far as whether a criminal being tried whether to be put to death-me, by myself, no I dont, but I also believe God allowed the government to be put in place to enforce the law of the land-and that America was founded on christian principles including our justice system, which was setup so no one could sentence a man to death by themselves, it had to have solid evidence presented, ruled over by a judge and jury of their peers, and given every right to defend themselves. I don't see any problem with that. As far as beyond that, in self defense, Im not choosing to kill someone-im not picking someone out, Im simply defending myself, if the attacker happens to die in the process of defending myself, well I dont see anything in the NT that says that I dont have the right to defend myself. Do I want to kill someone? no, but if it came down to my daughter or the person trying to harm her, then yes I am going to choose my daughter because I feel that God didnt give me the right to protect me, he gave the responsibility to protect my family, so yes-if it came down to protecting my family I will choose the life of my family over that of the aggressor.

[Bold Believer]

s

Patriot & Bold Believer: I understand your positions concerning scripture. Especially the part about Paul saying that he refuses not to die as neither would I, what I don't see is anything that clearly shows that it is Christians who are the ones running the government and doling out the death to those who are worthy of it. Instead I see an exact separation of church and state where the church is the church and the state is run by unbelieving gentiles who need prayer that they might come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved. As Paul had made abundantly clear that prayer be made first and foremost for our governing officials for this exact purpose. Why pray for salvation for those who are not in need of it?

<< 1 Timothy 2 >>

King James Version

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

When you read this, you don't seem to see the reason he request the prayer for these men. If our leadership truly came to a knowledge of the truth and became saved me who preach and teach the gospel of God we would be able to lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty, but it isn't happening. Instead we have leadership who are living in unbelief supporting the murder of unborn babies and a man right to fornicate openly without rebuke. They trouble our nation as a whole.

Gary

And the reason for that Gary? BECAUSE MODERN BELIEVERS HAVE ABDICATED THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE WORLD AROUND THEM AND HAVE INSTEAD RETREATED BEHIND THE CHURCH WALLS. THEY HAVE ADAPTED THE SINKING SHIP PRINCIPLE OF THE LATE J. VERNON McGEE (You don't polish brass on a sinking ship). THEY'VE BOUGHT THE FOOLISH TEACHINGS OF A FUTURE GREAT TRIBULATION, A SINGULAR ANTICHRIST AND A GOLDEN-AGE MILLENNIUM, "POLITICS ARE EVIL" "SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE*" AND SO FORTH AND SO ON. WHAT YOU DESCRIBE IS THE NATURAL RESULT OF SAID ABDICATION.

(*There is no seperation of church and state in the US Constitution. That is an out and out lie. It IS however, Article 10 of the former Soviet Union's constitution.)

We elect clowns to office and cry when we get a three ring circus in DC.

IF we had believers in office, then things would be different, but so long as the Church keeps telling godly men that politics are evil and dirty, who will ever run? Believers on one hand cry when some godless heathen is put into office, and on the other hand say we have no business being IN politics as Believers. Do you not see the problem? YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

You want justice, but you are unwilling to do what God says to do to GAIN that justice, therefore you get nothing. Yet another state has abolished the death penalty making a total of 17. So now, even if we convict some of these 'fine upstanding citizens', we are unable to exact justice on them, so now such people will continue to inflict their godlessness on society and when we catch them, WE have to bear the cost of feeding, housing and clothing the sons of the devil. Such folly is taking our nation to the poorhouse at an alarming rate, and you and others as Believers applaud this crap? What are you thinking?

[Guest Butero]

The principle of Mat 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

Gen. 4:7-8: Cain made the wrong sacrifice which opened the door to sin of hatred, jealousy and finally killing. The sacrifice Christians are to make is in Ro. 12:1-2. When they do not do this and yield to the Holy Spirit training as to what this means they will do what is right in their own sight. This often results in operating in expediency (armed guards in churches) which is operating on the knowledge of good and evil not Life.

Note what Jesus says in Mat 26:52. The disciples surely had a reason to wound and kill to defend each other and Jesus. The antichrist is killing saints and they are to follow nonresistance in Rev 13:7-10

Gen 4: 23-24 tells of a killing for a wounding and possibly to save his own life. He indicates he realizes this was wrong with the statement he makes about Cain in vs 24.

In Gen 8:6-7 is a clear statement on killing. The exception being capital punishment (Old and New testaments) and the OT wars of His judgments on nations whose cup of iniquity was full.

The Bible in Acts 17:25-27 speaks of all being one blood. God's heart at this time is that men be saved not killed or injured, especially not by carnal Christians defending themselves or others.

King David is a type of Christ and was called by God a man after His own heart. However, Father God told him he could not build the temple because he had shed much blood on the earth in His sight. Even though these were nations under judgment in wars God had directed. Here is what God said to King David: I Chron. 22:7-8 and I Chron. 28:3.

Jesus view of "just" wars and physical violence is in Luke 9:51-56. The disciples did not know what spirit they were of! They thought they had a "good" and Biblical response (see Elisha). Christians who either do not have the Holy Spirit or do not submit to His training in this area end up using 'expediency' or OT justifications for their violence which there is none there either.

Every non believer that a Christian kills ends up in the pit which was the point of what Jesus said in Luke 9:55-56. Then after you wound them, or talk to the ones who are left that are not killed, it makes it hard to tell them about the love of the Lord.

Some justify war by saying the US is a Christian nation. There is no such thing. There are nations with the King's citizens in them being salt and light, not acting like the world and serving its Godless systems or relying on the expediency of armed guards in churches.

At this point some anecdotal evidence is in order. Nate Saint and those with him who died rather than defend themselves or each other is an example. I will say they were told by leadership not to go and may be the reason for no Divine protection.

On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has some good points. After the battle of Gettysburg (the South lost) 100's of rifles were gathered up from the battlefield. Many were double and triple loaded. The reluctance to kill with an individual weapon seemed to be the reason. To cover their reluctance they did not fire but "reloaded". He goes on with more evidence throughout history to support the point, and the ways the military and our society has overcome this God given reluctance to kill.

Also he establishes the killing as the cause of PTSD. His ways to overcome this are junk but his evidence is compelling. This is sowing and reaping for violation of God:s laws.

PTSD is easily overcome by repentance and deliverance. How an airborne ranger and Delta force operator got set free by Jesus when we had the privilege of ministering deliverance to him is an interesting story.

General S. L. A. Marshall makes the point with his unique method of interviewing WW II, Korean War and Vietnam soldiers right after close combat. He interviewed the handful of survivors of Able CO. that hit the Dog Green on Omaha Beach. He talked with about 20 of over 200 not killed or wounded. It was the beach that Saving Private Ryan tried to show at the start of the film. He discovered a very high percentage that did not fire their personal weapons then, and in all these wars except Vietnam. By then the military had devised training to partially overcome the God given resistance to killing.

In Vietnam one platoon of less than 30 men stood off a force of 200 very determined NVA all night with no artillery and some of the time with no illumination. Near the end, having very little ammo left, knowing they were as good as dead they just all started laughing! Captured NVA later said this really affected their morale. I think the US troops had the resistance to killing removed and the NVA didn't. This platoon was mostly just a reg. bunch of draftees that had not even seen the elephant yet.

This training is so effective, along with the conditioning to violence that our society provides, that troops will assault immediately when ambushed by a superior well protected force and win! In training the same men thought to themselves, never will I do this! The other force probably still had that bothersome inhibition.

The US Marines seem to be most open and perhaps best at this. They tell all their 'boots' that they will make them into trained killers! The US Army does the same.

Your take on Matthew 5 is incorrect. If you are going to say that God advocates pacifism, you are going to have to explain why He has had Israel, at times, destroy entire nations of people. There is no such thing as a "Holy War" waged by a country. The United States has not been involved in a just war since WW II, however, you can't throw a blanket over the whole thing and car it wrong. This subject has been debated by people for centuries and pacifism is not advocated in the Bible when a nation is unjustly attacked. I take it you believe our armed forces to be criminals?

Please reread the initial post as it explains the wars in the OT and God's attitude even toward King David.

Preemptive aggressive war is an international war crime. It is one crime the Nazis were tried, convicted and hung for. As long as a nation wins or is strong enough they can do as they wish and do, because they can do as they wish.

Christians are to be transformed by the renewing of their minds into the stature and fullness of Christ. Who would Jesus kill in one of the nation's carnal wars? Would He approve of a citizen of His Kingdom doing the same? He made this very clear to His disciples.

You would be surprised who said this. He is long dead but his statement is true for all the wars the US ever fought.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

First of all, I don't recognize international law. Each country is sovereign. A pre-emptive strike is perfectly legitimate. Right now, we have the nation of Iran trying to get nuclear weapons, and we know they plan to go after Israel. Israel and it's allies have every right to attack Iran right now, and should do so in order to stop them. There will be far less casualties if we do so now than after they have nukes. The same thing goes for the war on terror. At the same time, in that case, we were attacked, so it's not exactly the same thing.

The Bible makes a clear distinction between murder and killing in battle. God himself sent King David into battle. God himself raised Kings up and gave them instructions to fight and kill others in battle. Even when he wasn't directly giving the orders, you see his influence when it comes to wars, even using the King of Babylon to execute his judgement on sinful nations.

[Guest Butero]

Oh well, I guess I'm a criminal, shame on me for doing my part to preserve freedom.

Thank you for your service, and don't let anyone put a false sense of guilt on you for defending this nation. At the same time, you need to realize that some people have a misunderstanding of scripture when it comes to killing. Remember "Sergeant York." He had a real objection to killing, until he got into combat. He wasn't killing simply to harm others, but to save his fellow soldiers, as well as defend his country.

[grandma dolittle]

Oh well, I guess I'm a criminal, shame on me for doing my part to preserve freedom.

Old Zimm,

I am sorry to say you are wrong. You are not a criminal. Christ told us to obey the heads of our government and as a soldier you did just that. There is a big difference between murder and war (honest war... not raping and killing for the pleasure of it) Remember what Christ said on the sermon on the mount. It is all about the heart and the reasons behind the actions. God bless you.