Euthanasia is wrong!

[AnotherSinner]

Need to write a living will...have two small children to consider in the event anything happens to either myself or my husband. If it were the two of us...would not worry so much. However, whether here or not, need to put some things in motion as to the well being of my children....see nothing hypocritical in that.

Also ....my grandmother-in-law who passed last week, had it written for her not to be revived. She spent some of her last week on this earth in pain. Yet when her time came, she was smiling..... that for me...was a testimony in itself that those who fight the good fight until the bitter end have something to look forward to as she was a firm believer in God. She was one of two women I knew who knew how to love and live well.....

[Guest Butero]

here's something to ponder....

when an animal is suffering and there is no cure, euthenasia is encouraged. but when a human is suffering and there is no cure, euthenasia is a criminal act.

we can all sit here an judge euthenasia to be wrong or not wrong, but there is no scripture, IMO, that indicates that medical assistance to end one's suffering in that way is any more "wrong" than using any other medical intervention. i know that my father suffered for three years before he finally died. i don't know why God allowed him to continue living, if you could call that living. but He did allow it, and i won't question why. but....

if someone gets cancer and, for whatever reason, does not get chemotherapy or whatever other treatments are available, God allows them to suffer.

if someone gets heart disease and needs a transplant but doesn't get it, God allows them to suffer.

if someone gets shot and a doctor doesn't take the bullet out, God allows that person to suffer.

perhaps the reason God allows a terminally ill patient to suffer is because those whom HE has given the authority to end their suffering haven't been permitted by law to do so.

i'm a wuss. i hope when i die it's quick and painless. and if it can't be quick and painless, then i sure hope laws have been passed by that time to allow me to die with dignity at a time of my choosing. don't think i wouldn't consult God about it, i most certainly would. but frankly, i can't imagine my loving heavenly Father telling me "tough beans, you have to suffer a few more years."

go ahead, stone me. i'm sure there is at least ONE person here who will agree with me, even if they won't admit it.

I'll admit it. I do agree with you. I see no problem with suicide and assisted suicide myself. I have my reasons (many I am living right at this moment).

How do you get past the fact that God commands us not to commit murder? Suicide is murder of self, and I believe it is a one way ticket to hell. It is not that God can't forgive you for murder, but there is no opportunity for true repentance, when it is your final act. I don't believe in the OSAS doctrine, so I don't see any chance of redemption for someone who commits a wilful sin like that, and can't confess it.

I don't believe in OSAS either. I believe murder means murder...taking another persons life without permission. I believe the Bible does not address suicide. In fact the only thing I see is murder. I also see a difference between killing and murder (how do you justify war under this belief?). No one has ever been able to present me with a situation biblically dealing with suicide, and hell, and they won't because it is not addressed. There is a difference between euthanasia and suicide as well. One is killing the another person, and one is killing your self. Another thought...You shall not murder....well you shall not murder what? Other humans (obviously)...why not the animals as well? Did He include the animals (sport hunting, killing for fun). Where are the actual lines drawn? It is left very shaded. If I were to decide to take my own life to save my children the pain of dealing with me (and it could hit the point within the next year that I may not be able to care for myself anymore), I do not believe that My Lord would scold me for it...and if He would so be it! I am willing to accept whatever may come my way. But I do not feel that it is clearly defined. No one has been able to show me where those lines define...everyone seems to believe just a little differently about murder and suicide.

Let me ask you a good one since I deal with it in my life...if someone with multiple personalities was to have an alt personality take over (not the core person), and that personality decides to kill the body, do you hold the person who was not in control responsible? How is that to be handled biblicaly?

(and yes that IS a serious question that floods my mind daily)

I already answered the issue of war. We know God wasn't speaking of fighting in battle when he commanded us not to kill because he ordered people into battles. We also know he wasn't speaking of capital punishment, because he instituted it. To me, murder means to decide to kill an innocent person. That can be another person, or myself. Either way, it is still murder. God gave us dominion over animals, and even gave us permission to use them for meat. He didn't do that with people. I don't believe in killing anything simply for sport. I don't think that is being a good stewart over the things God entrusted us with.

I want you to think long and hard about what you said about accepting the consequences that may come your way? What if those consequences are eternity in hell? Even if it is not, what if it is loss of all your rewards or authority in God's Kingdom? Would you really forfeit that to end temporal suffering down here? I wouldn't, but that is a personal decision.

I actually think your multiple personality question was a good one, but it isn't that difficult to answer. A person that has multiple personalities is using them to cope with an unbearable situation. It is really the same person, but the mind splits into differen't people to deal with something. Since it is still the same person, regardless of whether or not they are one personality or a dozen, they will still be held responsible for their actions.

By the way, I don't have a living will, and have given instructions to use any medical means available if I become sick or disabled. There is no hypocrisy with me on this issue. I don't believe in any of that stuff, death with dignity, living wills, or assisted suicide.

Herein lies my situation....and you are only getting a piece of it. I have 3 kids living....one a grandmother and I are fighting over, and 2 living with me. I am ill. Have been for over a year now. Losing my ability to care for my kids. I have no family to care for me. I was disowned in February when I was too sick to make it to Ohio to attend my Mothers funeral. If I didn't have the friends I do I would have been dead last year, and no one would have known. My 14 yr old thought I was gone. I don't find it right to put my care on my 14 yr old and 4 yr old. Specially when I am told there is nothing wrong with me. I have lost more than 100 lbs in a year without trying...actually trying to prevent it. I have had times I didn't know who or where I was (so now a friend stays here full time to keep an eye on me). I get to kinda live....I spend most of my sick time on my bed...like I am now. I have been down for the past 5 weeks this time. When I feel semi okay you can't slow me down. I am very self sufficient (I was raised to care for myself, and shamed when I couldn't). I cannot handle the insanity when I lose coherency. I can see what is going on even though I understand very little of it. I can't communicate during those times, and the medical profession can find nothing wrong with me. Yeah I would save my kids that grief no matter what. I've been widowed, lost both parents, and all grandparents, and had a stillborn all in the last 5.5 yrs. Do you actually think I am sane at this point? In this next year I could lose all ability to care for myself...and you know what I will get? Left in my house to die alone. That is exactly what I have to look forward to is the State taking my kids away when I can no longer care for them, and to die alone and confused (if my money holds out long enough that I don't become homeless while it is happening). If someone happens to find me I might be thrown in an institution somewhere. If I am "lucky". (If anyone wonders where I have been hiding, and why I haven't really been in chat this past year there it is).

First of all Colleen, I want you to know how sorry I am for what you are going through. It must be frustrating having doctors tell you there is nothing wrong with you? I wish I could give you real solutions to your problem, but medical issues are beyond my knowledge. The only thing I would suggest is that you get another medical opinion? I can't understand how the doctors told you there was nothing wrong? What do they think is going on? Do they think you are a hypocondriac, and starving yourself?

I wish I could cure you, but all I can do is pray for you. When someone is going through a crisis like you are, it is easy to let emotions cause a person to give you bad advise, out of sympathy. It would be the easiest thing in the world for me to tell you that God would understand you harming yourself to save your kids from having to deal with your illness, but I can't do that with a clear conscience. Perhaps he wants to teach them lessons about love and caring for their Mother? They could be things that will effect them for the good for the rest of their lives? On the other hand, you may feel like you are a burden, and that being out of the picture would be better for all concerned, when it would be devestating to them? All I can do is pray, and perhaps others here at WB will pray as well? God bless and keep you, and give your kids the strength to deal with things as well.

[Guest LadyC]

a do not resusitate isnt euthanisa that is when the doctors know that patient is terminal and has chosen to die and not be revived as their life is already short

key words here: the doctors KNOW that the patient is terminal and [the patient] has CHOSEN TO DIE.

an advanced directive, aka living will, that includes the orders not to prolong life by way of life support has essentially asked to be allowed to die. why then is it different for someone who is terminal but for whom life support machines are not an option?

and a DNR is not exactly the same thing. a DNR means do not bring back to life after the person has already died.

euthenasia as decided by the state without the consent of the patient is wrong, of course. but euthenasia at the patient's request, IF that person is terminal and suffering, is a whole different ball of wax.

and again the question is... on an issue where GOD is silent, why do people take it upon themselves to condemn? why do people think they have the right to put words in God's mouth where He did not speak them? and not only put words in God's mouth, but then to condemn those who disagree by judging them to be going to hell in a hand basket?

where God is silent, it is an issue left between the individual and God. if the individual believes for himself that it is wrong, it would certainly be a sin to do it anyway. the same as anything else... if someone believes playing Uno is wrong because it is cards, then they shouldn't play. if one believes eating pork is wrong, they shouldn't eat. if someone believes a glass of wine is a sin, then they shouldn't drink. but since God doesn't say any of those things is wrong for all people, then nobody has the right to determine for someone else if it is a sin between them and God.

[Guest Butero]

I don't believe God is silent on this issue. I believe when God says "Thou Shalt not kill," that includes killing of self.

[jasoncran]

a do not resusitate isnt euthanisa that is when the doctors know that patient is terminal and has chosen to die and not be revived as their life is already short

key words here: the doctors KNOW that the patient is terminal and [the patient] has CHOSEN TO DIE.

an advanced directive, aka living will, that includes the orders not to prolong life by way of life support has essentially asked to be allowed to die. why then is it different for someone who is terminal but for whom life support machines are not an option?

and a DNR is not exactly the same thing. a DNR means do not bring back to life after the person has already died.

euthenasia as decided by the state without the consent of the patient is wrong, of course. but euthenasia at the patient's request, IF that person is terminal and suffering, is a whole different ball of wax.

and again the question is... on an issue where GOD is silent, why do people take it upon themselves to condemn? why do people think they have the right to put words in God's mouth where He did not speak them? and not only put words in God's mouth, but then to condemn those who disagree by judging them to be going to hell in a hand basket?

where God is silent, it is an issue left between the individual and God. if the individual believes for himself that it is wrong, it would certainly be a sin to do it anyway. the same as anything else... if someone believes playing Uno is wrong because it is cards, then they shouldn't play. if one believes eating pork is wrong, they shouldn't eat. if someone believes a glass of wine is a sin, then they shouldn't drink. but since God doesn't say any of those things is wrong for all people, then nobody has the right to determine for someone else if it is a sin between them and God.

so you wouldnt mind your doctor who is paid to kill you mother if she ask for it. and well killing it is as he has to inject something to stop that heart. a dementia patient doesnt just all at once die from organ failure. that is what i mean. also insurance companies and the goverment who bases mecidicine often on costs will decide its cheaper.

that is what i mean and dr.kevorkian did just that! was a he murderer then? yes by god definition of murder he was.

otherwise i could grant death wishes to the sucidal teens that i come across as they asked me to kill them as they were depressed. that is what the state wants to do. force you to decide to end it by allowing doctors to kill you for diseases as they see as terminal. and depression for some is indeed surfering. if you doubt perhaps try talking to them that have it.

i should also thrown any psychosis which isnt cureable and that does cause major problems and the patient has boughts of depression. i asked god if i had alzhemiers as my grandfathers who had it if i could end it if i was told. god told me what am i not able to cure it? that stopped that for me.

letting one die and killing one who asked for it are really two different things. sorry i dont feel fallen men , particuliarily secular humanists who also argue that babies who are born to poor families shouldnt be born but aborted, should have that power. kinda violates that do no harm oath they take.

the problem here is that in holland 12 yr olds were put to death for chronic diseases but nonetheless not deadly.its cheaper for the insurance company to put to death then cure the patient in all case of illness. a 10 vial of the stuff can obtained from any vet supplier. one drug to make em sleep and another to stop that heart. same meds in fact!

[jasoncran]

let me ask it this way..

is it murder then for the patient who is told by his doctor that he has terminal illness such as demetia? which include parkinson and alzheimers? think hard as the doctor has to actively (not passively) stop the major organs from working theres the difference.

[Guest LadyC]

i think i've made my position quite clear. i watched my father suffer, his condition rapidly deteriorating for three years before he finally died. i watched my cousin care for her terminally i'll husband (i believe it was parkinsons) long after he was able to speak, move voluntarily, or have any other voluntary control over his body.

if my mother was dying and there was no hope for any recovery, much less any hope for a quality of life, i would hope that her wishes could be legally honored if death was what she wished. absolutely.

now, show me in scripture where God defines this as murder. give m one single scripture where God definitively says that medical intervenion to end one's life at their request under such circumstances is forbidden.

you can't. because it's not there.

but you CAN find scripture where saul asked someone to end his life, and the person who ended it was not condemned by God.

and you can find scripture where God indicates that if your animal is critically injured, it is ok to put it out of its misery on a sabbath rather than force it to suffer til the next day.

and you'll never convince me that God has more compassion for animals than for humans.

now, show me again where it is that God gives YOU the right to speak for Him on issues that He has not spoken on. i'm just DYING to see that one, no pun intended.

ok, maybe the pun was intended.

in any case, i'm done with this thread. at least i hope i'm done with it. i darn sure don't want to keep repeating myself. i suppose if there's any question i can respond to that i haven't already answered a half dozen times, i might take the time. but otherwise, i'm really not interested anymore in those of you who would condemn me to hell, when my loving heavenly Father certainly has not, and will not.

[jasoncran]

heres a list of arguments against euthansia

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/against/against_1.shtml

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/euthanasia.html

i disagree. some soldiers talk about not feeling better then a mass murderer. i dont feel that i would want to cross that line.im sure if a doctor who has killed many a patients probably would feel the same. once you cross this line about death. human life is meaningless. i know soldiers who have "hunting collections" of their kills. seen one first hand!

[Guest LadyC]

nice. you post links to arguments against my position,

but you obviously can't do the one thing i requested, which is to show me anywhere in scripture where GOD definitively opposes euthenasia at the patients request.

of course you can't. you never will, unless you write it in there yourself.

[jasoncran]

i think i've made my position quite clear. i watched my father suffer, his condition rapidly deteriorating for three years before he finally died. i watched my cousin care for her terminally i'll husband (i believe it was parkinsons) long after he was able to speak, move voluntarily, or have any other voluntary control over his body.

if my mother was dying and there was no hope for any recovery, much less any hope for a quality of life, i would hope that her wishes could be legally honored if death was what she wished. absolutely.

now, show me in scripture where God defines this as murder. give m one single scripture where God definitively says that medical intervenion to end one's life at their request under such circumstances is forbidden.

you can't. because it's not there.

but you CAN find scripture where saul asked someone to end his life, and the person who ended it was not condemned by God.

and you can find scripture where God indicates that if your animal is critically injured, it is ok to put it out of its misery on a sabbath rather than force it to suffer til the next day.

and you'll never convince me that God has more compassion for animals than for humans.

now, show me again where it is that God gives YOU the right to speak for Him on issues that He has not spoken on. i'm just DYING to see that one, no pun intended.

ok, maybe the pun was intended.

in any case, i'm done with this thread. at least i hope i'm done with it. i darn sure don't want to keep repeating myself. i suppose if there's any question i can respond to that i haven't already answered a half dozen times, i might take the time. but otherwise, i'm really not interested anymore in those of you who would condemn me to hell, when my loving heavenly Father certainly has not, and will not.

i disagree with your position and i watched my grandfather on his death bed as two weeks later he died from his colon failing him as he lost too much blood from it and it was due to his brain forgetting how to run the thing. that is what alzhemiers does to you and see that link and read it all it mentions doctors advising suicidal teens to end it. is a terminally ill patient able to end their life by consent? i dont think that it wise to allow it. see the studies and the dangers of holland are very real.

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/not-for-adults-only/

its happening and did. that is too much power.