The Submerging Church

[GoldenEagle]

While this has been a very interesting read I'd like to politely disagree with those who claim that Rick Warren is part of the Emergent Church movement. My parents have worked with Rick Warren for nearly 3 decades in helping spread the Gospel. Rick knows them by name. I helped with 2 church plants with the Purpose Driven Church (PDC) model where we saw over 500 peole come to the know Christ as their personal Savior over the years. I can tell you that there is a lot of mis-information regarding Rick Warren out there and a majority of it is false.

This was the original article written by a Non-Christian with Orange County Newspaper and found here (February 2012) that started this whole controvery. An observation... When we read well-known Christian leaders quoted as saying something in a local paper that seems out of character (say Billy Graham for example) or contrary to their views over many decades, perhaps we might give that person the benefit of the doubt.

For clarification please see this article and the transcript regarding Rick Warren's thoughts on God, Evangelism, Missions, and Islam... (It is also can be found on the Christian Post In particular note the text bolded in red.

Editor’s Note: Pastor Rick Warren has often said that “you never win your enemies to Christ, only your friends.” And he’s gone far past the limits most believers are willing to broach in order to form friendships and love a world in need of Jesus. Because of this, he’s often the target of unfair criticism and unfounded rumors. If you’ve longed for Pastor Rick to clear the air with boldness and clarity, keep reading. Along with another article we published about how Rick is a bridge-builder, this article answers the questions you might be asking. It’s the transcript of an interview between Rick, the Christian Post, and myself. Read on…

QUESTION: Do people of other religions worship the same God as Christians?

WARREN: Of course not. Christians have a view of God that is unique. We believe Jesus is God! We believe God is a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not 3 separate gods but one God. No other faith believes Jesus is God. My God is Jesus. The belief in God as a Trinity is the foundational difference between Christians and everyone else. There are 2.1 billion people who call themselves Christians… whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Pentecostal, or Evangelical…and they all have the doctrine of the Trinity in common.

QUESTION: A recent newspaper article claimed you believe Christians and Muslims worship the same God, that you are “in partnership” with a mosque, and that you both agreed to “not evangelize each other.”You immediately posted a brief refutation online. Can you expand on that?

WARREN: Sure. All three of those statements are flat out wrong. Those statements were made by a reporter, not by me. I did not say them … I do not believe them… I completely disagree with them … and no one even talked to me about that article! So let me address each one individually: First, as I’ve already said, Christians have a fundamentally different view of God than Muslims. We worship Jesus as God. Muslims don’t. Our God is Jesus, not Allah. Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

Second, while we urge our members to build friendships with everyone in our community, including Muslims and other faiths, (“Love your neighbor as yourself”), our church has never had any partnership with a mosque. Friendship and partnership are two very different levels of commitment. Some of our members have hosted a Bible study with Muslim friends, which I applaud, but I’ve never been to it, and a Bible study certainly isn’t any kind of partnership or merger! It’s just crazy that a simple Bible Study where people explore Scripture with non-Christians would be reported as a partnership and others would interpret that as a plan for a new compromised religion. Just crazy!

Third, as both an Evangelical and as an evangelist, anyone who knows me and my 40 year track record of ministry knows that I would never agree to “not evangelizing” anyone! I am commanded by my Savior to share the Good News with all people everywhere, all the time, in every way possible! Anyone who’s heard me teach knows that my heart beats for bringing others to Jesus.

QUESTION: That same article mentioned that you ate an Iftar dinner with Orange County Muslims. What is that all about?

WARREN: It’s called being polite and a good neighbor. For years, we have invited Muslim friends to attend our Easter and Christmas services and they have graciously attended year after year. Some have even celebrated our family’s personal Christmas service in our home. So when they have a potluck when their month of fasting ends, we go to their party. It’s a Jesus thing. The Pharisees criticized him as “the friend of sinners” because Jesus ate dinner with people they disapproved of. By the way, one of my dear friends is a Jewish Rabbi and my family has celebrated Passover at his home, and he attends our Christmas and Easter services. I wish more Christians would reach out in love like Jesus.

QUESTION: Why do you think people who call themselves Christians sometimes say the most hateful things about Muslims?

WARREN: Well, some of those folks probably aren’t really Christians. 1 John 4:20 says, “If anyone says, ‘I love God,’ yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.” And 1 John 2:9 says “Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.” I am not allowed by Jesus to hate anyone. Our culture has accepted two huge lies: The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear them or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.

QUESTION: Let’s talk about evangelism. In the past 10 years, Saddleback Church has baptized over 24,000 new believers. No other church comes close to that record. You are likely the most evangelistic church in America. What’s the key?

WARREN: We are willing to do what many other churches are unwilling to do. We are willing to go beyond our comfort zone.

QUESTION: For instance?

WARREN: Because Jesus commanded us to take the Gospel to everyone, I spend much of my time with groups of people who completely disagree with what I believe. I’m constantly trying to build a bridge of love to nonbelievers, to atheists, to gays, to those I disagree with politically, and to those of other faiths. We don’t wait for these people to come to church; we go to them and share with them on their turf, not ours. Every member is a minister and a missionary. Saddleback was a missional church 30 years before the term became popular. We just called it being “purpose driven”.

QUESTION: “Building a bridge” sounds like compromise to many people.

WARREN: Building a bridge has nothing to do with compromising your beliefs. It’s all about your behavior and your attitude toward them. It’s about genuinely loving people. People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. Before people ask, “Is Jesus credible?” they want to know if you are credible. Before people trust Jesus they must trust you. You cannot win your enemies to Christ, only your friends. It’s part of what Paul calls “the ministry of reconciliation.” It is Christ-like to treat people with dignity and listen to them with respect.

QUESTION: Why are most Christians so ineffective at sharing their faith?

WARREN: I have a whole seminar on that! First, they don’t really have any unbelieving friends. They spend all their time with other Christians. As a result, they are afraid to share their faith because it feels unnatural to them. For most people to come to Christ, you must build a relationship with them first. You must love them. The truth is, most Christians love everything else more than the people around them that Jesus died for. Second, many don’t really believe that people are lost without Christ. Third, many Christians are afraid of the criticism they will receive from other Christians if they hang out with unbelievers. It was the religious people who hated Jesus the most. They criticized him for associating with tax collectors and lepers and prostitutes and politicians and going to parties. Lost people loved Jesus but the religious folks saw his associations as dangerous compromise. The same is true today. Modern Pharisees still use guilt by association as a weapon. Just read the blogs. They’d rather hunker in a bunker and attack those courageous enough to reach out to non-Christians. I do not fear the disapproval of others. I fear the disapproval of God on my disobedience to what he has clearly commanded us to do.

QUESTION: What is the P.E.A.C.E. plan?

WARREN: It is a biblical strategy of ministry based on five activities Jesus modeled in his ministry. Saddleback members have been beta testing it for the past nine years all around the world. Each letter of P.E.A.C.E. represents one of five things Jesus taught his disciples to do: P stands for Plant churches. E stands for Equip leaders. A stands for Assist the poor. C stands for Care for the sick. E stands for Educate the next generation. The PEACE plan is accomplished by local churches through local churches. It is based on three passages of Scripture and the specific instructions Jesus gave to his teams that he sent out. There are at least a dozen major differences between the PEACE Plan and the traditional, typical mission program of NGOs and parachurch organizations of the past 100 years. It is a return to the missional strategy.

QUESTION: What is the PEACE Center?

WARREN: Based on Jesus’ instructions in Acts 1:8, we practice the PEACE Plan in three dimensions: PERSONAL PEACE – my ministry to those closest to me; LOCAL PEACE -our congregation’s ministry to our community; and GLOBAL PEACE - serving other local churches around the world as those congregations do their own local PEACE. The PEACE Center is the building on our church campus that houses about three dozen of our 300 ministries to the community. It offers our food bank, job training, family counseling, legal aid, car repair, tutoring, English as a second language, legal immigration assistance, and many other ministries.

QUESTION: I read an article that claimed you were building a PEACE Center to bring Muslims and Christians together in peace.

WARREN: It was the writer’s mistake. He got two different stories confused. Our recently opened PEACE Center, on the Saddleback Church campus has NOTHING …zero… to do with our Muslim friends.

This is an example of why I always doubt what I read in newspapers and blogs about ministries. Secular reporters trying to cover churches and theological issues often get it wrong. But then Christian bloggers, instead of contacting the ministry, blindly believe, quote and repost the errors made by secular reporters. Then those errors become permanent, searchable, and global on the Internet. I couldn’t count the number of times a secular reporter has gotten a story about Saddleback wrong but then it is perpetuated by Christians who never fact-check. And the three factors I mentioned about the Internet make it impossible to correct all the misperceptions, and outright lies that get repeated over and over.

Hopefully this can clear up any concerns people might have regarding Rick Warren.

God bless,

Jon

[Mcgyver]

Thanks Jon,

 

It's nice to hear something from the source, and from someone who has first hand knowledge for a change.

[Floatingaxe]

Rick Warren, Emergents and Muslims

Watched this video in it's entirety today.

This is a 6 min clip from chapter 9.

Rick Warren states in part during his inauguration day prayer for Mr. Obama "and you are the Compassionate and merciful one"

Joe Schimmel mentions this is a phrase used for Allah in 113 of the 114 chapters in the Koran.

By stating this, Rick Warren is stating the god of Islam is also the God of Christianity...

 

Reply:

 

No, it means that Rick Warren was giving God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob His due, for He alone is the compassionate and merciful  ONE.

 

 

It also states Rick Warren and many others in key positions having signed a document called "Loving God and Neighbor Together" that was a response to a Muslim document stating we can only be "one" if we worship the same god.

I.E. A Chrislam document type.

Love that shepherd's picture on Joe Schimmel's wall as well.

 

Reply:

 

No, he signed nothing of the kind and has stated so.

[Floatingaxe]

I don't know how much of Obama's presidency you have been following, since you live in Canada, but he has a very warm heart toward Islam, which is not a secret. Try connecting the dots sometimes instead of denying something may be wrong with someone you seem to think very highly of.

 

 

 

 

Try thinking more highly of those who are brothers and sisters in Christ instead of opting to follow the lowest common denominator---namely the disgruntled who happen to spread their hatred through blogs. Look to the source before accepting second and third hand opinions.

[Floatingaxe]

Rick Warren has had a "false" damage control apologetics team working for him for sometime.

Ditto, in the "real" sense: Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

As far as the "touch not God's anointed" this never meant not to compare what men say against the Word of God.

When anyone speaks falsehood, it is meant to be exposed. 2Ti 4:2

"Real" anointed and prophets of the Bible look to see God and His Word rightly divided all the time.

Psa 105:15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

Rick Warren (and many others in our day) speak many grave errors that are need to be and are being exposed.

FA, you apparently understand through study, some of the errors of the Masons and the Order of the Eastern Star in one of your past post.

Humbly, prayerfully, do some of the same homework in light of God's Word on this man.

With God's Word rightly balanced, defend Jesus Christ and his Word in the same manner as you have RW, and you will find how terribly Emergent he really is.

I have found this to be true by careful study of my own, and verified others.

Won't you and others that look to defend Rick Warren do the same?

Funny how that "chrislam" paper has not come up again, does anyone here deny Rick Warren signed that?

Can light mix with darkness? Can fresh water mix with salt water?

 

 

I did the responsible thing and went to the source. Did you?

[Floatingaxe]

This bears repeating:

 

 

From Rick Warren's church website:

News & Views 03/10/12
Saturday March 10 , 2012
Pastor Rick

ON RESPONDING TO FALSE ACCUSATIONS

Dear Saddleback family,

A week ago a reporter published an article in the Orange County Register about Saddleback Church that contained many errors and false assumptions:

It erroneously stated that we have a partnership with a local Muslim mosque.

That is false.

It erroneously reported that we had agreed to not evangelize with Muslims.

That is false.

It erroneously reported that we believe Saddleback and Muslims worship the same God.

That is false

It erroneously used a picture of our new PEACE Center as the example of a program of cooperation with Muslims.

That is false.

It erroneously reported that our church had agreed to a theological document with Muslims.

That is false.

Usually, we try to ignore the false statements made by media, and especially irresponsible bloggers, because 1) Reacting to every false report would take up most of our time, 2) It is almost impossible to undo an error’s damage once it is on the Internet, 3) God knows the truth and he is the only one we must please, 4) It is Christlike to remain silent in the face of false accusations, 5) God blesses us even more every time we trust him with our defense, and 6) We have far more important tasks to accomplish with our time.

When opponents publicly attacked and openly criticized Nehemiah for the work God had assigned him, Nehemiah responded wisely, saying “ I sent messengers to them with this reply: ‘I am carrying on a great project and the work is too important for me to stop and respond to you. Why should the work stop while I leave it and meet with you?’" (Neh. 6:30) When people have already decided to not like you, nothing you say will change their minds . . . not the truth, facts, proof, or logic. They only get more defensive and angry. It’s a waste of your breath. We’ve seen this during the past week.

But because YOU value the truth, I agreed to do an interview to correct the errors of the article, and send it to you. Of course, anything I write to you also goes public. Once my interview was released, the “I-hate-Saddleback” bloggers refused to accept the facts, and they began looking for something else to attack or to claim that I had lied. Since I wasn’t asked in the interview about the fifth error (Has Saddleback signed a theological agreement?) the bloggers began looking for a loophole, or even a “cover-up.”

Of course Saddleback has NEVER agreed to any theological document with Muslims or else the elders and I would have seen it first! No agreement or document could possibly be approved without our consent! But the first time our elders and I even heard of a document was from the article! So this week I tracked down the rumor and here’s what I found:

A member of Saddleback started a Bible study, called The King’s Way, with some of our Muslim friends. During the study they started writing down things that they noticed Muslims, Jews, and Christians might have in common: They noticed that all three claim to believe the Great Commandment (“Love God with all you heart and love your Neighbor as yourself”), all three accept the Old Testament as Scripture (and Muslims claim to accept the New Testament also) and all three are monotheistic (one God, not many). They presented these thoughts at the Bible study’s Christmas dinner in December. That’s it! End of story! It went no further. No document was signed. No agreement was made. No covenant was approved. It was just two men sharing their observations at the Bible study dinner regarding what Muslims, Jews, and Christians have in common.

That’s a huge difference from the way it was reported. It was not a new partnership. It was not a theological covenant. It was not a new religion called “Chrislam.” The fact is, the Bible study discussion paper was never even seen by anyone on Saddleback’s Leadership Team (40 pastors,) Saddleback’s Pastor’s Management Team (14 pastors), Saddleback’s Trustees (6 business leaders), or Saddleback’s Elders (7 pastors).

Predictably, to defend himself after my interview corrected his errors, the Orange County Register reporter released a segment of the so-called “document” to the I-hate-Saddleback bloggers – giving them a supposed smoking gun. Unfortunately, he forgot to ask if any Saddleback pastors had actually signed or even seen this paper. We had not! But now we’ve heard that there will be a second article this Sunday in the Register giving a platform and legitimacy to attackers who didn’t know the facts either. So don’t be surprised if it’s wrong again.

If you missed reading my interview, click here to read it.
If you’d like to read what our Muslim friend said, click here to read it.

Let me be clear: This entire misunderstanding is neither the fault of Saddleback members nor our Muslim friends who accepted the invitation to study the Bible together. It’s the result of poor reporting and the willingness of irresponsible bloggers who hate us to automatically believe anything negative about our church. They shoot first, publish a report, then ask for clarification after they’ve done the damage, and finally, they never retract anything when proven wrong. When a national news agency contacted us this week, their conclusion was “There’s no real story here.” Duh!

This incident also highlights the gullibility of people who believe everything negative on the Internet without fact-checking and the willingness of Christians to pass on bad reports about others that they can’t confirm. When people WANT to believe the worst about you, they always pass on negative reports without validating them first. It’s a motivation issue.

“Only a fool believes everything he's told! A prudent man understands the need for proof.” (Proverbs 14:15)

That’s the rest of the story. We will continue to ignore the irresponsible bloggers who just want to fight, but we will keep you informed when blatant lies are told about our church family. I love you all!


Saddleback

[OneLight]

 

I don't know how much of Obama's presidency you have been following, since you live in Canada, but he has a very warm heart toward Islam, which is not a secret. Try connecting the dots sometimes instead of denying something may be wrong with someone you seem to think very highly of.

 

 

 

 

Try thinking more highly of those who are brothers and sisters in Christ instead of opting to follow the lowest common denominator---namely the disgruntled who happen to spread their hatred through blogs. Look to the source before accepting second and third hand opinions.

 

Second of third hand opinions?  I read nothing on him, but look at his fruit.  He speaks loudly about who he is and what he believes.  Perhaps you should be paying attention instead of trying to accuse me of doing something I am not doing.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

I don't know how much of Obama's presidency you have been following, since you live in Canada, but he has a very warm heart toward Islam, which is not a secret. Try connecting the dots sometimes instead of denying something may be wrong with someone you seem to think very highly of.

 

 

 

 

Try thinking more highly of those who are brothers and sisters in Christ instead of opting to follow the lowest common denominator---namely the disgruntled who happen to spread their hatred through blogs. Look to the source before accepting second and third hand opinions.

 

Second of third hand opinions?  I read nothing on him, but look at his fruit.  He speaks loudly about who he is and what he believes.  Perhaps you should be paying attention instead of trying to accuse me of doing something I am not doing.

 

 

 

The man has tons of excellent fruit.  It appears that you haven't been listening to him, but to others, or at least allowing others to influence your opinion. It's a shame, really.

[GoldenEagle]

FloatingAxe for clarification are you talking about President Obama or Rick Warren? I'm confused.

[OneLight]

 

 

 

I don't know how much of Obama's presidency you have been following, since you live in Canada, but he has a very warm heart toward Islam, which is not a secret. Try connecting the dots sometimes instead of denying something may be wrong with someone you seem to think very highly of.

 

 

 

 

Try thinking more highly of those who are brothers and sisters in Christ instead of opting to follow the lowest common denominator---namely the disgruntled who happen to spread their hatred through blogs. Look to the source before accepting second and third hand opinions.

 

Second of third hand opinions?  I read nothing on him, but look at his fruit.  He speaks loudly about who he is and what he believes.  Perhaps you should be paying attention instead of trying to accuse me of doing something I am not doing.

 

 

 

The man has tons of excellent fruit.  It appears that you haven't been listening to him, but to others, or at least allowing others to influence your opinion. It's a shame, really.

 

 

We are talking about Obama, right?