nebula Posted June 3, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 3, 2012 JohnDB - did you see the thread where a Jehovah's Witness is defending her belief? In there, she provided an extensive explanation for how the symbol of the cross actually has pagan origins. Would you agree or disagree with this assessment? What post was this? Here's the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted June 3, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 3, 2012 nnn-kay, so? You want I should do my explanation to a JW why they are in error here? To answer what I think you are driving at... YHVH brought Yshua into the world through virgin birth even though the devil had already surmised from Genesis 3:15 (seed of the woman) / Isaiah 7:14 (almah) there would be a virgin birth and paganized the idea through Nimrod and the mother / son resurrection through what became know as the the yule log etc... ...could not YHVH have also used the cross in spite of the fact that the devil anticipated even this through the nehushtan salvation from the deadly snake bites and the assembly of the mahon in the wilderness (Numbers 2 diagram the numbers and you'll have a cross facing east)??? YHVH did not do so with the "Star of David" / Seal of Shlomo. And that is the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted June 3, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 3, 2012 The answer to the JW is that the torture stake was originated in the Assyrian empire whereupon they impaled victims on the stake itself without the use of nails. Usually the stake is pointed at the top and they would impale folks up under the rib cage or through orifices (sic) and leave them to suffer till death for days. It was particularly useful to tyrants who wanted extremely convincing deterrents to the masses rebellion / disobedience. So was the piercing of flesh with hooks through jaws etc. The Greeks also used this but not as prolifically as the Romans and not as abundantly as in the Holy Land where the rebellion was most intense. Over the centuries prior to Christ, various additions and subtractions came of the stauros (sometimes translated tree) to distinguish it from the staking of one to the ground with several stakes or one X which they were nailed to. The idea was to humiliate as much as possible as they died slowly to deter more than punish. I am sure there were some impaled on the stake as JW's depict... but the more cruel version was that of being impaled upon a cross (called a stauros to distinguish from a X cross on the ground) which included a cross beam called a patibulum (or stipes) causing a weight vector on the chest cavity making breathing impossible after a short time without the victim pushing up on the nails in the feet and pulling down on the nails in the hands to exhale... The fact that Jesus was severely scourged before being impaled proves this was the method for the added agony of dragging ones' lacerated back up and down the rough hewn stauros fed the sadistic desires of the crucifiers. A simple stake did not provide either of these. Nor would breaking the legs of the victims have hastened death. Only in the vectoring torture of a cross. Further Jesus said see the scars of the nail(s) plural in my hands. One spike through both hands overlapped would have been used in a stake execution. Further the way people prayed in the Bible with outstretched hands was prophetic of the Lord's crucifixion prayer. Still further, Jesus told Peter to follow him in his death which he described as a spreading of the hands not an overlapping of them. "I have spread my hands all the day long over an obstinate and stiffnecked people...." prophecy of the crucifixion.... This is the point where the JW usually has to run home to mommy... never to darken my door step again.... My former stepfather and his son (my half brother) were JW.s My brother is not... his father still is only because he has such strong emotional ties to the Kingdom hall (two JW's knocked on his door the afternoon he was going to commit suicide and stopped him). Glad he's alive sad he's in the Watchtower Boo Boo and Back Track Society. My brother btw was won over by the way Matthew 24:26-28 proves the Watchtower lies about the invisible return of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted June 3, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 3, 2012 I have wondered if there was some attempt to overlap two trinities, though! Judaism, says R. Prager, 'has its own trinity,' God--Torah--Israel. --Inter Interesting since there are two torahs. 1 Corinthians 9:19-21 (NIV) 19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. Galatians 6:2 (NIV) 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. Makes you wonder which torah God speaks of when he refers to "my law" Exod 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. 2 Chron 6:16 Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me. Ps 78:1 Maschil of Asaph. Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; Prov 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: Prov 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law. Prov 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. Jer 9:13 And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; Jer 16:11 Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; Jer 26:4 And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you, Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put MY LAW in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 44:10 They are not humbled even unto this day, neither have they feared, nor walked in my law, nor in my statutes, that I set before you and before your fathers. Ezek 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. Hos 8:1 Set the trumpet to thy mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of the LORD, because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law. Hos 8:12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 4, 2012 John - I wish you could have been there to answer her! But to the point I was making, because there were similar symbols in pagan cultures, the JW's argue that the cross symbol that Christians use comes from those pagan origins. Is it possible in your understanding that a similar thing took place with the Star of David (as most people call it)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted June 5, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 John - I wish you could have been there to answer her! But to the point I was making, because there were similar symbols in pagan cultures, the JW's argue that the cross symbol that Christians use comes from those pagan origins. Is it possible in your understanding that a similar thing took place with the Star of David (as most people call it)? Far be it from me to put God in any kind of box... But the 6 6 6 thing... God warns us about... And too many scriptures seem to indicate that the end time scenario will be of a false messiah misleading Israel (affirming the Mosaic covenant and then reneging on it 3.5 years later)... if so, and this modern day adoption of the seal of Solomon might well be the mark used to flush out Christians and Messianics who refuse to take the mark which at that time will be an affirmation of worshiping the beast (false messiah). As to my take about those who use the symbol now... if I am correct about the mark... note I said "IF"... then those who are using it do so in ignorance as to what it meant in the pagan past and what it will mean in the false messiah / antichrist future... so I am not accusing anyone of anything sinister... I am only trying to warn folks about a pretty coincidental trait of this star / seal being 6 points, 6 triangles, and a 6 sided center.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Understood. I have to disagree with this being the Mark of the Beast. Scripture mentions "the mark of his name" not the number of the mark. Additionally, a characteristic of this mark is that people cannot buy or sell without it. Forcing tatoos of a six-pointed star on people for no reason other than just because would be hard to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted June 5, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 Understood. I have to disagree with this being the Mark of the Beast. Scripture mentions "the mark of his name" not the number of the mark. Additionally, a characteristic of this mark is that people cannot buy or sell without it. Forcing tatoos of a six-pointed star on people for no reason other than just because would be hard to sell. Imagine Judas Iscariot coming back from the dead... and being able to scientifically prove it is him. DNA / blood content analysis whatever. The death wound to the head healed Revelation 13:3 Judas based on "son of perdition" John 17:12 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as well as "his own place" Acts 1:25 and the fact that the only recorded possession of Satan himself was of Yehudah Ben Shimon Esh Kyrioth Luke 22:3 / John 13:27 Able to do lying wonders and signs... fooling the whole world... and affirming the Mosaic covenant... and claiming to be the true messiah and blaspheming Yeshua as a false messiah... This would upset the world as we know it. There are many other clues in scripture. Like Yeshua's warning about fleeing when you see these things in Judea... pray it is not in winter or on a sabbath... on a sabbath? Shomer Shabbos has never taken precedent over fight or flight in all Jewish history. So the only scenario this warning could apply is if the Jewish people were in the holy land and in charge and enforcing shabbos laws and they see nothing at all wrong with the beast making his way to the (rebuilt) temple to sit on the mercy seat atop the ark of the covenant in the Holiest Place and claim to be God above every god. If you can think of another scenario why Jesus would say that about the sabbath in Matthew 24:20b... I'm open to consider its validity... But the point I am driving at is the whole world will be fooled by the beast... except for Holy Spirit filled Christians and Messianics... and we will be the global targets of hate for being refuseniks and made out to be the cause of all evil and brutality and we will be hunted down. This is what Yeshua spoke of as when brother would betray brother to death etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted June 5, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 666 will be the tracking device / mark to hunt down the one people who will not accept the mark... Revelation 13:16-18 (NASB95) 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. Can you imagine trying to beat that system (given modern technology)? Imagine trying to keep from starving when every garbage dumpster has a video cam aimed at it.... for example. Some optical scanner / video cam which can tell by uv ir light if a mark is legit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Imagine Judas Iscariot coming back from the dead... and being able to scientifically prove it is him. DNA / blood content analysis whatever. Umm...you believe this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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