Consequences...

[Terra7]

BYE!

Edited July 26, 2012 by Terra7

[Guest necessary noise]

If the person is found guilty by the state, well the state has a right to make him accountable for what he/she is charged of. yes vengence belongs to our God thats thats but also bear in mind every authority comes from God and it should be respected. God's Will will also prevail.

[Sevenseas]

Is there not a difference between justice and vengeance? (rhetorical question, but please do respond if you want)

[NeedYouLord]

Sevenseas...I'll let someone else tackle that but something earlier I wanted to respond to...Going back to Moses and he killing (murdering, ending the life of) the Egyptian...

One day I remember having the revelation that we (ok just me, Hahaha). That we are (that I am) like Moses in the sense that he was born Hebrew but was raised Egyptian...and I likened it to just as we are (as I am)...(eventually having a born again experience-being changed-being a child of The Living God...but raised in this world...that is under the influence of the enemy...and the lust thereof...putting our so-called "enemy" or "sin" to death...not letting it be in us anymore!!! Therefore bringing the two men or two natures if you will-into one new man)

About the specific topic in the op (I just feel so wonderful...I just figured out what "op" means) Yeah...

This is something to think about...I'm starting to wonder if I write my testimony all at once...Hahaha...There wouldn't be enough screen to hold it...or my computer might blow up...Hahaha...so maybe until I know for sure I'll just put in pieces where they fit...

I have not had the opportunity to spend not one minute in our prison system and hope beyond hope that I will not have that opportunity...but I almost lost my life by my own hand (without having God's Mercy or Grace) and trying to justify what our country says is legal to do...There is no other name that one can put to ending another's life other than killing (or murder) it is the same to me...I don't care how young that other one is...even if it is still in the womb...

So I have murdered (facing the truth now for a very long time) and have been forgiven...By A Merciful God That Saved Me When I Called Upon His Name...Have I served in a physical building called a prison? No...But Have I Suffered? More than you'll ever know...sorry...not trying to be dramatic just stating truth as I see it...

Amazing what happens to us when we turn from our wicked ways and Seek His Face...Sometimes He gives us a second chance...I just knew I would never have a child...Even my (earthly) daddy told me: never have children...the one that left his family to marry his mistress who was pregnant!!! Anyway...I was given a second chance...I was legally married this time and lost another child by miscarriage...My heart was broken...So I sat down and had a talk with My God...I told Him I didn't know exactly what I had done wrong...(Understanding a little more now-this was a long time ago) that I was sorry...and that if I was to have a child...I would...and if I wasn't to have a child (according to His Will) I wouldn't...I didn't know what He wanted but I was willing at that kitchen table to accept whatever He wanted for me...(also the doctor recommended I start taking a daily vitamin)one month later...I was pregnant!!! At 44 years of age...Now here is the amazing part...I haven't held any punches with her...She knows God is real she loves to go to church...She can feel His Presence...But this is what happened: I heard the audible voice of God say this: You will homeschool my child, who is your child...Oh my...I was so scared...We are now in our 5th year!!! And God has provided every bit of the money needed...I'm in Awe of an Awesome God!!!

[Guest LadyC]

mike, i'm sorry i haven't had time to thoroughly read and prepare a rebuttal, but i do want to address the issue of moses and his lack of punishment for his "murder" that you brought up... because, well, i just happened to be reading exactly that today in my 90 day journey through the Bible. well, i read the incident yesterday, but today's reading includes the answer to your argument.

Exodus 21:12-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Law Concerning Violence

¹² “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. ¹³ However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.

now i realize God told this to moses after the fact... long after the fact... but we both know that God doesn't just change His way of thinking when it comes to sin. surely we can agree that moses did not lie in wait for the egyptian that he killed. the act was committed in the moment when he saw the egyptian beating one of the hebrews. this was so clearly not a case of premeditated murder, but an act of defense for another man's life.

we could debate whether God delivered the egyptian into moses' hand, but we won't. it's already been established that he did not lie in wait with the intent to kill anybody, but to deliver another human life from the egyptian's hand.

and we know from scripture that if moses had stuck around, he would have been put to death. instead, moses fled egypt, moved in with jethro, married zipporah, and had a couple of kids. and then what? God told moses to return to egypt, because all who had sought to kill him were dead.

sounds a bit like the city of refuge laws, doesn't it? you remember those, don't you, as the hebrews were about to cross over the river jordan into canaan, and God instructed them to set up safe cities, and that if someone killed someone without malice, they could flee to those cities, and as long as they remained there until the priest dies, they were safe from retaliation. after the priest dies, they are free to leave the city, and no retaliation can be sought.

it's pretty obvious as you read that after he killed the egyptian, he fled to a place that God led him to... and there, God blessed him... and then God told him when it was safe to return.

i imagine having to be separated from your homeland, your family, your friends, for that many years, whether in a city of refuge or whether with some shepherd's family in a foreign land, would be quite a consequence in and of itself.

so, can you agree that this is the scenario which applies to moses? God didn't let him off the hook for murder. the punishment fit the crime... he had to leave his homeland for many years for having killed a man WITHOUT premeditation or malice, and had to stay banished until the pharaoh had died and he would no longer be retaliated against.

is that not consistent with God's law?

[Bold Believer]

Interesting...Moses' story is the opposite of Christ's here. Moses went OUT of Egypt and was told to return after those who sought his life were dead. Christ went out of ISRAEL and was told to return after those who wanted to kill him were dead. Moses was a grown man, Christ Jesus was a child. Moses killed to save a man, Christ died to save all men. Antithesis indeed.

[Guest man]

If a person commits a crime worthy of death (mass murder for instance) and they really and truly repent, should they still not have to pay the temporal consequences (i.e.: execution)?

I believe they should (for the most part). There may be some exceptions to that, but I think they'd have to be extraordinary.

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.

[Guest LadyC]

mike, i think i recall you mentioning menassah, is that right? i haven't looked into that one yet,and frankly i hope someone will. but i'm struggling right now to keep up with my reading schedule, the blog, juggling that with family (motherhood isn't finished when they leave the nest, and it seems this week they both want to call 20 times a day), marriage, and the likes.

it's 4:30 and i just finally finished today's reading. it's day 6 of 90... i've completed exodus, and i've managed an entry each day so far. but by this time, my eyes are weary and my head is achey, and i just can't push myself to look up any more scriptures to study.

but i'd better push myself to go mow my 200' back yard before the city issues me a citation.

[winsomebulldog]

I am thinking that the OP is asking about breaking civil law, not moral or spiritual law. I'll use the Colorado theater shooting for an example because that's what's on all our minds right now. First the "what if's." Assume that the shooter goes to trial and is convicted of multiple counts of premditated murder and attempted murder. Assume he gets the death penalty. Then assume that while he is sitting on death row he hears the gospel, takes it to heart and gives himself to Christ. This setup leads to the hypothetical question brought up in the OP.

Does the killer's sincere repentence of his crimes mean he should have the civilly appointed consequence of his crimes set aside? If so, then how much "forgiveness" should he receive? Should he have his death setence commuted to life in prison? Or should he be set free to go on with his life?

From a Christian prespective, it is impossible to argue that God has forgiven him of the sin of the murders he committed. (Assuming, of course, that his conversion was "real." And for the sake of this discussion, I'll assume it was.) While some might argue that it is "unfair" for him to not suffer eternally for his crimes, the reality is that God doesn't draw lines when it comes to salvation and forgivenss. Repent, and it's forgiven. Period. Our human nature may want to see those guilty of horrendous crimes suffer to the point of "burning in hell," but God has a heart we can barely begin to comprehend. So, if we're talking about the eternal consequences of sin - even mass murder - committed prior to repentance, then the answer is a resounding, "Yes, the guilty should and will be forgiven."

However, I think what's truly being asked is whether or not the corporeal consequences of crimes should be forgiven, meaning set aside. And my personal answer is no. Spiritually, God forgives. But that forgivenss does not always translate into a physical absolution of any and all consequences of whatever sin we've committed. We reap what we sow. Again, in a purely civil way, the consequences of our crime are there based upon the crime in question, not the thoughts and/or feelings of the perpetrator at some point after the fact. I think many people may repent of a crime once they are in prison, but the fact is they still committed that crime and a civil jury of their peers determined that there was enough evidence to convict them of that crime. A jury or a judge then set what they felt was an appropriate sentence as punishment for that crime. Spiritual repentence and forgivness doesn't change any of that. If someone commits murder and is given the death penalty, then that is the civil consequence of committing murder. God can and will forgive them, but it doesn't necessarily follow that civil authorities must do the same.

The Bible talks much about forgiveness. And most of that talk is about our attitudes and overcoming our own natural pride that will drive us to hang on to grudges with both hands. If someone murders or terribly hurts someone we love, then I think we (meaning Christians) need to strive to forgive them. I think that's precisely what God teaches us to do in more than one place in scripture. And I think we ought to not seek vengeance, meaning we have no business going out there to punish the criminal ourselves. But vengeance and justice are not the same thing.

Justice

means:

1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

b : judge

c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity

2 a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair

b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness

c : the quality of conforming to law

3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness

Vengeance

means:

: punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense : retribution

Notice that justice is about impartiality while vengeance is about retaliation. This is precisely why juries are vetted in an attempt to find those who can and will be impartial. If victims or their families were allowed to fill the jury box, no one would receive justice.

The death penalty isn't about vengeance. It is about justice. So, if you commit murder and are found guilty of doing so, you must then meet the consequence that has been justifiably allotted to you. Honestly, your spiritual state, either at the time you committed whatever crime you were convicted of or at any later date is irrelevant. Eternal and eathly lives are not interchangable.

Having said all this, I also know that God sees His will done in all things. Meaning that if it were a part of his will for a mass murderer on death row to go free, then it would happen. As others have said, God will have mercy on whomever He chooses. We may not understand it or like it for that matter, but things happen according to His will, not ours.

[Sevenseas]

Notice that justice is about impartiality while vengeance is about retaliation. This is precisely why juries are vetted in an attempt to find those who can and will be impartial. If victims or their families were allowed to fill the jury box, no one would receive justice.

The death penalty isn't about vengeance. It is about justice. So, if you commit murder and are found guilty of doing so, you must then meet the consequence that has be justifiably allotted to you. Honestly, your spiritual state, either at the time you committed whatever crime you were convicted of or at any later date is irrelevant. Eternal and eathly lives are not interchangable.

Well said.