Does God will to heal ALL who come to Him for healing?

[gdemoss]

gdemoss

Yes, I was right. You misunderstand what I was saying. I did not word it in a way that was acceptable to you but yet I believe we mean the same thing. There is a big IF in there. God does will that all who come to him would be healed as he wills that every single person on the planet be both saved and healed. The reason they are not and will not is because of the IF you mention. There is a proper way to come to God and all the IF's must be adhered too.

Gary

There are no IF's - we ALL get sick and eventually die. Do you know any 2,000 year-old Christians? Answer - NOT ONE. The name it and claim it health and wealth gospel is a FALSE GOSPEL. Even those in the Acts Period all died.

I agree that the name it and claim it is false. There are instructions to follow. Not going to debate the if's, you believe as you will.

Gary

[Guest shiloh357]

You didn't answer the question.....how I would like to have seen you answer it You know, yes or no...but fair enough,

Sorry, I don't think God WANTS people sick. But he never promises to heal everyone, either.

[carlos123]

There is a false theology of healing out there claiming that healing is in the atonement.I

I am not personally convinced that such is a bad theology Shiloh. I lean in the direction of believing that such is indeed correct theology though my mind is not entirely made up about such (and may never be if the Lord leads me to realize what you say to be in fact true by Him).

I am curious Shiloh as to how you view the following set of verses as to what they are saying and their implications? Bolding is mine.

Matthew 8:16 (AKJV)

When the even was come, they brought to him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.

What Matthew is saying IS that whatever Jesus did in healing the sick was a direct fulfillment of what was said in Isaiah (if I am not mistaken in assuming that Esaias IS Isaiah).

That seems crystal clear Shiloh.

Now the question for me is not whether or not the verses above say that but whether or not what Isaiah says points to it being a part of the atonement or not.

And whether or not what Jesus did in fulfillment of Isaiah was specific to that time period only - when Jesus was doing His ministry on earth - or whether it has broader application and relevance or not.

Let's look at the verse quoted above out of Isaiah...

The NASB (New American Standard Bible) renders the quote from Isaiah as "He Himself took our infirmities and carried away our diseases.”

Looking through Isaiah I find no such verse. I searched for various parts of that quote and found none. At least in the NASB rendering of Isaiah.

Looking further...let's look at the LXX (Septuagint) since many quotes of the Old Testament in the New are from the Septuagint.

Hmm...that one isn't much better at all.

I can't find that quote anywhere.

Now commonly it is understood to be a quote of Isaiah 53:4. Let's see what that says.

Isaiah 53:4-5 (AKJV)

Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed.

I would say that what Isaiah is talking about is definitely connected with the work on the cross at least in part.

"Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" is not quite the same as the quote in Matthew though which says, at least in the AKJV "Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses".

Don't know how Matthew got his quote from "Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" but regardless Matthew DOES connect it to the healing of the sick that was occurring. There is no question of that connection.

What do you make of that Shiloh?

Did you know that nearly every major faith healer that has died, died from illnesses they claimed they had authority over in Christ.. In the end, the healing theology they espoused didn't work for them.

I am aware of that. Just the other day I read a very long list of many, many faith healers many of whom died from deceases like cancer and all kinds of stuff.

Definitely makes one wonder about their theology as to whether it was correct or not.

Yet...I believe it is also true that we do not make theology based on experience but rather that correct theology is derived by first understanding what is written and understanding it accurately. Going from there.

If the theology these people believed, and probably no two of them believed the same things by the way, was correct biblically then the fault for their lack of healing was NOT their theology but their persons in that they did not apparently know how to apply their correct theology to their own lives in such a way that they might have been healed.

Again...I am NOT saying that their theology was necessarily correct Shiloh. Only that IF it was, biblically speaking, it doesn't matter in the least that many of them died of deceases.

What matters is whether their theology was correct.

That is what I am looking at here in this thread. The theology, or at least one aspect of it, regarding whether it is the WILL of God as seen in Jesus to heal ALL who came/come to Him for healing.

Carlos

[nChrist]

God does will that all who come to him would be healed as he wills that every single person on the planet be both saved and healed.

The Bible does not claim that God wills for every person to be healed. That is another unscriptural statement.

You believe it is Gods will that people remain sick and die?

Gary

All people regardless of faith get sick and die, so what do you think the ANSWER MUST BE - YES. If God wills otherwise, it would be otherwise and there would be a large population of 2,000 year-old Christians.

[carlos123]

we MUST discuss all aspects of this issue, openly and honestly without being defensive...even the possibility that a lack of faith results in no healing, if we ever hope to arrive at a more perfect understanding of what God's perspective on this may be.

Carlos

I'm sorry carlos but by saying lack of faith results in no healing you are also saying those who have great faith should be healed.

What about those who have great faith and are not healed ?

Can you look in their hearts and judge their faith?

Please don't misquote me Nigel. I HATE being misquoted (seems to happen a lot around here).

I did NOT say that a lack of faith results in no healing as if such a thing is absolutely true. I said that we need to discuss the possibility that such is true. In other words it may or may not be the case. I am not sure either way yet.

Carlos

[carlos123]

There are no IF's - we ALL get sick and eventually die. Do you know any 2,000 year-old Christians? Answer - NOT ONE. The name it and claim it health and wealth gospel is a FALSE GOSPEL. Even those in the Acts Period all died.

You seem a bit excited by how you wrote that. If that is so may I suggest that you take a breather and relax?

We are starting to veer off into different camps and bringing out the swords and shields to fight over this issue.

This thread is about whether or not it is God's will that ALL be healed.

It is NOT about what you refer to as the "name it and claim it health and wealth gospel"

Please stick to discussing the topic at hand.

Thanks.

Carlos

[carlos123]

All people regardless of faith get sick and die, so what do you think the ANSWER MUST BE - YES. If God wills otherwise, it would be otherwise and there would be a large population of 2,000 year-old Christians.

Tell me something.

Do you believe that Jesus was the exact representation of the Father? That He only did that which He saw His Father doing and said only that which He believed His Father would want said?

If that is so...and I believe it is...how do you view the FACT that Jesus Christ healed every single person who ever came to Him for healing?

Was that a reflection of God's WILL?

If not...why not?

Carlos

[carlos123]

Sorry, I don't think God WANTS people sick. But he never promises to heal everyone, either.

I'll ask you the same question I asked nChrist Shiloh.

Do you believe the FACT that Jesus Christ healed ALL who came to Him was a reflection of God's WILL in the matter?

As in that it was God's WILL that all be healed?

If not...I would like to know why not?

I am still uncertain about this issue so I am asking not to be combative but rather because you may have something to offer the discussion that I have not yet thought of and that might help me make up my mind.

Carlos

[Guest shiloh357]

God will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Once saved all scripture that applies to those that are saved applies to the one who got saved. This is a given. God is willing to heal all who are sick that are saved.

The Bible does not make that kind of blanket statement. There are lots of Scriptures that only applied to original audience. While all Scripture is relevant to the believer, not all Scripture is necessarily applicable. Relevance and applicability are not the same thing.

Jam 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

So God is not willing that any should be sick but that all should follow his instructions that he laid out in the scriptures and be healed.

Well since this is the formula you are holding out, tell me this... What about people who don't have the means to follow those exact instructions. What about Christians in other countries who are in prison and have no access to elders or oil? Who can't ask anyone to pray for them??? How do these instructions help them??

[nChrist]

Folks, let's use some common sense. First, God's Will WILL BE DONE - no IF's.

Let's take the 2,000 year-old Christian I mentioned in a couple of posts and reduce the age to 200. Do you know of any 200 year-old Christians? Why not? Have you heard about the fall of man from the Garden of Eden? God never promised us an easy time in THIS short life.

2 Corinthians 1:1-11 NASB Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ. 6 But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer; 7 and our hope for you is firmly grounded, knowing that as you are sharers of our sufferings, so also you are sharers of our comfort. 8 For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life; 9 indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; 10 who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us, 11 you also joining in helping us through your prayers, so that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the favor bestowed on us through the prayers of many.

Romans 8:16-28 NASB The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. 26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

2 Corinthians 5:1-21 NASB For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. 6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight-- 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences. 12 We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.