Rapture Questions

[gdemoss]

Years ago, before 1984, when I also believed in the Pre-Tribulation rapture, one part of this theory leaned heavily on the "thief in the night" meaning it was a secret event where only the believers knew it was happening and the lost had no idea, just as a thief sneaks around in silence to do the deed he is there to do. Further studies convinced me that this was not true, since it did not fit the rest of scripture. I know understand that this means that the rapture will happen when nobody expects it to happen, just like the thief comes when you don't think he will come, otherwise, one would be ready for him when he appeared.

Another misunderstanding is when people try to say the "theif in the night" scripture is the rapture ,, no it is not speaking of the rapture ,, that is in reference to the 2nd coming not rapture....as per so often people who do not want to use ALL scripture related to the rapture get a misunderstanding ,, it has been proven repeatedly what scriptures there are about the rapture . and it has as always been ignored by those who Prefer to believe otherwise ,,, I still challenge anyone to Prove differently ,, but no one does because they refuse to take in ALL scripture about the rapture and use scripture not pertaining to it at all

Nobody can prove you wrong if you will not receive the reproof.

1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the first resurrection as spoken of in Revelation)

1Th 4:17 Then (places the timing of the next event after the first resurrection) we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Let him who has ears to hear, hear the simple straight forward message of the scriptures. Let him who has a computer cut/paste as much as he wills to rearrange the scriptures to say what they want them too. Of course anyone with a good imagination can explain away this catching up as not being the rapture or put a number of years between the catching up and the day of the Lord's return. I will simply stick to reading it as written.

Gary

Here is exactly what I have been saying ,,you intentionally use limited scripture,,, you refuse to use ALL rapture related scripture , so now you make assumptions as to when you think it will happen ... of the many other points , you refuse to acknowledge scripture that states that when the rapture happens we go UP into the clouds ,,NOT down to earth ,, your reasoning is the very same as those whom try to say the 1000 years have already begun, or the antichrist has already been in power ,,it is all totally based on using ONLY a few selected verses, intenionally leaving out many other scriptures because that is Thee Only way that you can have it say what you want it to say ,,,this topic is thread after thread ,,, as soon as the topic is covered , someone will start another asking a question that has already been answred many times ,, simple case of keep asking the question tiull you get the answer that you want and totally disregarding the full entire version... it is nothing more than those like you who simply have to have your way ,,,,regardless of how many times you are proven wrong ,,, think what you want,, but as I have said many you simply misinterpret what scripture says because you refuse to use ALL OF IT.... simply stated thatb if you really have the love of Christ you realize that it be better to stop demanding to have your way .. and think about how you will explain yourself to Christ when he brings it to your attention when you face him, arguing a point that you refuse to include ALL scripture will be a point you cannot win ...it be better to just accept what you believe if that makes you happy and go with it ,,and not insist that you are right , especially when it so easy to prove you wrong...than to insist what you think is right and make yourself look demanding ,, that is not the way of Christ

as you posted and exactly as I said it was

Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The day of the Lord is when he returns to earth ,,NOT the rapture,,Not when he calls us UP INTO THE AIR..2 different events at 2 different times ,, and just because you see a summary of sorts in REV ,,you assume things that you don't undertsand simply because you refuse to use ALL scripture related to the rapture

Right, you have done nothing but speak 'great volumes of words' that say nothing more than 'your wrong man'. You have refuted nothing. You didn't even address my post. You simply overlooked my reproof and chose to rebuke me instead. If one is coming down and others are going up, as the scripture plainly says, then they will 'meet in the air'. Yet, I am accused of 'demanding' and am admonished that I will have to 'explain myself to Christ'. You speak of 'proving' people wrong but prove nothing. You accuse others of 'assuming' yet blurt out assertions about your own understanding and follow that with an accusation that one is not being like Christ. It is as people have said about you in other threads, your position is weak an you know it so you attack the person to provoke them in hopes of somehow coming off like you won the argument when you have not even participated in the debate. That is sad. Why don't you take the verses I have posted and give a line by line commentary as to why they do not say what I have presented?

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[Montana Marv]

Rapture related:

OK, I guess I have never really read in context what Paul was writing to the Thessalonian believers. He tells them that this event of the catching up happens as part of the day of the Lord. And though we don't know the times or seasons it doesn't come upon us as a thief if we are not walking in darkness. I find this truly amazing. I was walking in darkness up until ten years ago, then began a rigorous training in repentance that netted a belief in the gospel followed by more strenuous action of seeking the Lord for sanctification and lo and behold, I have been quickly understanding that that day is almost upon us. Poor pretribbers are going to get a big surprise.

Gary

Gary

So if that day is almost upon us, what is our big suprise. Being caught up will be no suprise (we either go up first having already died, or meet those who have died before us in the air to meet Jesus), but when does the Bridegroom come? Only the Father knows? So its timing is not revealed in Scripture.

Can the Rapture happen tomorrow, or the following day? Is the Rapture imminent?

In Christ

Montana Marv

[gdemoss]

Gary I am making the point that you say things that are not taking into consideration of ALL scripture,,simple example is if you say something in a letter that expresses what you believe ,,then you write a letter latter in time and someone else reads it and thinks it means something else and you are not around to state exactly what you meant then it becomes open to interpretation by the reader,,,so if the reader wants an accurate full and complete understanding they must read all other letters that speak of the same topic written by that person and those writings by people who have the same beliefs and same teachings as the writer of the letter they are reading,,thus in regards to the topic of the rapture and return of Christ a person needs to read and understand ALL scriptures in ALL books of the bible and use them all to see what is being taught..To use only a couple is leaving out much information that helps clarify what is being taught. People who have a particular teaching that they want put forth will intentionally leave out scriptures that go a direction that they do not want to go..

Scripture states outright that the saints will be with Jesus seen in the clouds as he returns ,,they are already with Jesus having been already resurrected and present with Christ as he comes down out of heaven when he returns. These saints are people who have accepted Jesus as savoir BEFORE Jesus returns ,,all the way back though history ,they are Christians and the OT believers who were in Abrahan bosom that Jesus took to heaven when he went to hades

with keys in hand ,,,but some people still want to say that it is only those of OT times even though there is no scripture that says anything at all like that, but even if it did it still shows that they are resurrected people from earth,,which still shows a resurrection BEFORE Jesus returns to earth..

This topic has so much info on it that post tribbers don't want to include inc their posts because they have no good way to explain away all of the other scriptures so instead they choose to pretend that the numerous other scriptures do not exist because that is the only way they can hold their position,,as it makes no sense at all to pretend that the saints are not with Jesus as he comes to earth,,and it makes no sense to say that Jesus will come to earth the go back up into heaven to call for the dead in Christ and the living in Christ to be called up into heaven/the clouds just to come back down ,,the post trib scenario just makes no sense,

It can be good to use scripture to make a point ,but when people refuse to use all of what is available it has little value,,there is so much scripture that it requires very long posts to state the scriptures and how they apply,,and to do so repeatedly for those who refuse to use all scripture is simply a lot of time typing to those who refuse to accept ALL of the LORDS Word when it refutes what they say

it not feasible ,,but still if that is what you choose to believe at least be respectful to other brothers in Christ by simply rejoicing that Christ is about to return and not say things that are not loving in Christ about what others believe,,,point is that there is no one scripture that reveals all and even Paul calls it a mystery ,,,

when people insist that their view is right when they cannot prove it,,,and leaving out many other scriptures to try to prove it is not at all proving anything other than a person is willing to refuse the rest of scripture only to try to show a point be true when it is shown not true when all scripture is used,,,Christ will address all people who try to insist that their view or teaching is right and others are wrong when you refuse to use all scripture that the LORD has given,,and to add into that the posttribbers so often attack pretibbers and that is against Christ teachings,,,believe what you will

To summarize your point: Gary, your wrong. Jesus is going to deal with you when he comes. Your really gonna get it. Scripture does not simply say what it says but is so difficult to explain how it all fits together that I won't bother to take any time to try to prove what I say but simply continue to assert that you are wrong and I am right. Now get behind me and start preaching pretrib!

That about right Daniel?

Gary

[gdemoss]

Rapture related:

OK, I guess I have never really read in context what Paul was writing to the Thessalonian believers. He tells them that this event of the catching up happens as part of the day of the Lord. And though we don't know the times or seasons it doesn't come upon us as a thief if we are not walking in darkness. I find this truly amazing. I was walking in darkness up until ten years ago, then began a rigorous training in repentance that netted a belief in the gospel followed by more strenuous action of seeking the Lord for sanctification and lo and behold, I have been quickly understanding that that day is almost upon us. Poor pretribbers are going to get a big surprise.

Gary

Gary

So if that day is almost upon us, what is our big suprise. Being caught up will be no suprise (we either go up first having already died, or meet those who have died before us in the air to meet Jesus), but when does the Bridegroom come? Only the Father knows? So its timing is not revealed in Scripture.

Can the Rapture happen tomorrow, or the following day? Is the Rapture imminent?

In Christ

Montana Marv

What's the surprise? It seems that the 'day' or the 'hour' is the surprise as that is what we cannot know. There are definite things that must come to pass before the rapture takes place, if I am not mistaken, so we do have to wait for certain scriptures to be fulfilled. I don't believe it is imminent.

Gary

[Montana Marv]

Rapture related:

OK, I guess I have never really read in context what Paul was writing to the Thessalonian believers. He tells them that this event of the catching up happens as part of the day of the Lord. And though we don't know the times or seasons it doesn't come upon us as a thief if we are not walking in darkness. I find this truly amazing. I was walking in darkness up until ten years ago, then began a rigorous training in repentance that netted a belief in the gospel followed by more strenuous action of seeking the Lord for sanctification and lo and behold, I have been quickly understanding that that day is almost upon us. Poor pretribbers are going to get a big surprise.

Gary

Gary

So if that day is almost upon us, what is our big suprise. Being caught up will be no suprise (we either go up first having already died, or meet those who have died before us in the air to meet Jesus), but when does the Bridegroom come? Only the Father knows? So its timing is not revealed in Scripture.

Can the Rapture happen tomorrow, or the following day? Is the Rapture imminent?

In Christ

Montana Marv

What's the surprise? It seems that the 'day' or the 'hour' is the surprise as that is what we cannot know. There are definite things that must come to pass before the rapture takes place, if I am not mistaken, so we do have to wait for certain scriptures to be fulfilled. I don't believe it is imminent.

Gary

Gary

One thing that needs to take place is the "Apostasy" 2 Thes 2:3. This is described more in 1 Tim 4:1-3. - v3 - They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods. We need to know who the "they" are. Once this is being taught in the church or even outside of the church, we will know the the time is right at the door for the removal of the Bride. I have no idea, but does anyone know if this teaching is being taught, (infancy). I know that forbiding people to marry already exists in the Catholic Church, for their leaders. So really, this apostasy is already at work today, just not full blown.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[gdemoss]

Rapture related:

OK, I guess I have never really read in context what Paul was writing to the Thessalonian believers. He tells them that this event of the catching up happens as part of the day of the Lord. And though we don't know the times or seasons it doesn't come upon us as a thief if we are not walking in darkness. I find this truly amazing. I was walking in darkness up until ten years ago, then began a rigorous training in repentance that netted a belief in the gospel followed by more strenuous action of seeking the Lord for sanctification and lo and behold, I have been quickly understanding that that day is almost upon us. Poor pretribbers are going to get a big surprise.

Gary

Gary

So if that day is almost upon us, what is our big suprise. Being caught up will be no suprise (we either go up first having already died, or meet those who have died before us in the air to meet Jesus), but when does the Bridegroom come? Only the Father knows? So its timing is not revealed in Scripture.

Can the Rapture happen tomorrow, or the following day? Is the Rapture imminent?

In Christ

Montana Marv

What's the surprise? It seems that the 'day' or the 'hour' is the surprise as that is what we cannot know. There are definite things that must come to pass before the rapture takes place, if I am not mistaken, so we do have to wait for certain scriptures to be fulfilled. I don't believe it is imminent.

Gary

Gary

One thing that needs to take place is the "Apostasy" 2 Thes 2:3. This is described more in 1 Tim 4:1-3. - v3 - They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods. We need to know who the "they" are. Once this is being taught in the church or even outside of the church, we will know the the time is right at the door for the removal of the Bride. I have no idea, but does anyone know if this teaching is being taught, (infancy). I know that forbiding people to marry already exists in the Catholic Church, for their leaders. So really, this apostasy is already at work today, just not full blown.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Agreed. The Apostasy must come first. The greatest problem with this is identifying the Apostasy, what it looks like. You have offered a bit from Timothy for consideration and I must admit that I have not studied out the Apostasy in detail biblically trying to define it and need to prayerfully consider doing so. If time permits and the Lord wills, I will. Thanks for the provoking to thought on the matter my brother.

Gary

[gdemoss]

Montana Marv, bless you so much for provoking me to study!!! I have learned something that I never new that helps me with understanding how these scriptures all fall in place. Unfortunately it is quite frightening revelation that supports the claims that I have been making about the end being imminent. Consider the following:

ἀποστάσιον G647 is the neuter version of the same word ἀποστασία (feminine) and is covered in these verses on marriage:

• Mat 5:31 It hath been said , Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement647:
  
• Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement647, and to put her away ?
  
• Mar 10:4 And they said , Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement647, and to put [her] away .
  

ἀποστασία - is used to reference the accusation made against Paul in Acts when they said he was trying to tell the Jews to 'forsake' Moses and stop circumcising their children.

Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

This is of dire importance in understanding what is about to happen to the gentiles in the church who are not living and walking in the Spirit but whoring after other spirits and turning to leaders who are not even following God to deliver them from their ills.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

These two 'events' happen together and it does not describe people leaving the church on their own accord. It describes God divorcing another whore. Which is what I have been claiming is going to happen all along. While it is true that God hates divorce, he is not above doing it:

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

God divorced Israel (Northern Kingdom) 2 Kings 17 and they were no longer a people, Isaiah 7. This is the minor fulfillment of this prophecy. The major fulfillment deals with Hitler, French Vichy and the Jews (Judah). I have declared openly that the scripture prophesies that God will divorce the multitude of nations (Ephraim, the fullness of the gentiles) before Israel turns 65 in April of 2013. This new understanding of the word used for 'falling away' in this text simply solidifies my position further. We are waiting for God to divorce which is also what I speak concerning the cleansing of the gentile court of the current temple made without hands.

All I can say to anyone concerning this is, I hope I am wrong but it is all I see. Repent is the word of the day. Seek his face. Come out of her my people...I am going to divorce her. Attach yourselves unto my still bride Judah whom I am returning unto. Awake thou sleeping Lazarus who has been dead 4 days as Jacob went down to Egypt and died 4 thousand years ago and a day with the Lord is as a thousand years....become as little children...understand the simplicity behind the way he speaks in the spirit mysteries....Mary though you sat at my feet you were without understanding and Martha, Martha so careful about many things yet I weep at the tomb of Lazarus over your unbelief...And all the people said, Amen...No...they picked up stones instead and said, "away with such a man, it is not fit for him to live..."

Peace and love in Christ, thank you again for the provocation,

Gary

[OneLight]

Onelight:

Wow brother..........

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

4th Trumpet:

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

I get it!!! God turned the light back on for the sun, moon and put those stars that were missing back real quick, just in time for the 4th trumpet... Man, thank you for the help Brother.. It reads just like a novel, and not like God said in Isaiah 28.... "Line upon line" "here a little, there a little." Like things with like things. Like a novel though..

I just took me a bit to get it... I am slow that way at times...

Jesus Is Lord.

Sarcasm is not a good trait to carry. Do you really believe that all the stars will fall to the earth? Consider the size, my friend, and you will see that the term "star" cannot mean what we call stars today.

http://www.quantrek.org/size_comparison/size_comparison.htm

If you want to really have a discussion, please leave out the sarcasm and passive aggressive statements.

[WailingWall]

.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The part I high lighted sounds like an eclipse followed by a meteor shower to me. Doesn't it?

Suppose it sounds like that but i really dont like to speculate

[WailingWall]

Rapture related:

OK, I guess I have never really read in context what Paul was writing to the Thessalonian believers. He tells them that this event of the catching up happens as part of the day of the Lord.

Gary

Yes gdemoss, ive found that also

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Seems the 2 above scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord. Theres just not enough time for you pre-midders.