Women in the Church

[ray]

Just to add some humor to this topic; Please delet if it not appropriate. Sorry in advance but I thought it was quite humors. You need to read everything especially at the bottom to see how it fits in.

In a message dated 3/18/2005 11:35:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, Secressel00 writes:

There were 3 good arguments that Jesus could have been Black:

1. He called everyone "brother"

2. He liked Gospel

3. He couldn't get a fair trial.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Jewish:

1. He went into His Fathers business.

2. He lived at home until he was 33.

3. He was sure his Mother was a virgin and his mother was sure he was God.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus could have been Italian:

1. He talked with his hands.

2. He had wine with every meal.

3. He used olive oil.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus could have been a Californian:

1. He never cut his hair.

2. He walked around barefoot all the time.

3. He started a new religion.

But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus could have been Irish:

1. He never got married.

2. He was always telling stories.

3. He loved green pastures.

But the most compelling evidence of all - 3 proofs that Jesus could have been a woman:

1. He fed a crowd at a moment's notice when there was no food.

2. He kept trying to get a message across to a bunch of men who just didn't get it.

3. And even when he was dead, He had to get up because there was more work to do

[Gerioke]

I don't know if it's just me but I have noticed there's a lot more woman going to church and acting like christians then there are men.Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that?

[ray]

If I base the one scripture on women be silent in churches meaning they are to be silent completely I would have to re-examine the whole way I was brought up. It seems to me that this passage is taken out of context way to often. If you are going to examine this issues of womens roles in the church; you need to look at all the passages in the Bible regardings womens roles in the church.

If it is not until this time period in the Bible, now women are be silenced, what were women allowed to do before? This verse indicates to me prior to this time it was ok for women to have speaking roles in church. I think we need re-examine the whole context of that passage.

IF women are to be silent why are they able to teach Sunday school up through highschool and not anything after that?

IF women are to be silent why can't they serve communion they don't have to speak just pass the plates.

IF women are not allowed to speak why is their a womens class?

IF women are not allowed to speak why are they able to share in a co-ed class?

IF they are truly to silent why do we allow them to speak at all in church?

Something is not right with passage in the context in which we apply it to women.

[Guest aliengurl]

i have a women of destiney bible and it has something on this matter:

it says:

..... I do not believe paul meant women were not to speak at all because acts 18:26,21:9 and 1 corinthians 11:5 make it clear that they did.The greek word used is diffrent from the 1 corithians 14:34 word translated"be silent"Although in the corithian passage silent means "to hold peace",this word silence in 1 timothy means "stillness" or "quietness" or even "agreement". It expresses the attitude of the learner.This teachable attitude is the same attitude of humble submission that any male rabbinic scholar was to have in that day.What a beautiful thought? Paul was saying to these women , who were never allowed to be taught in a scholary way in the Jewish synagogue system, that they could be fulll-fledged disciples. So what could timothy 2:11-15 mean? Rather than completely prohibiting teaching by women, it is possible that paul was prohibiting their teaching heresy.After all it was in the very same city of ephesus that pricilla,along with her husband Aquila,both well known by paul taught a male christian leader named apollos.Other admonitions in 1 timothy suggest that women were going from house to house( or prehaps house chruch to house chruch) leading others astray.Paul writes about this in 1 timothy 5:13 they are described as "busybodies", saying things which they ought not to. In verse 15, paul warns that "some have already turned aside to satan".One of the most difficult sections of 1 timothy is verse 12 because it seems to say that allowing women to teach men would be giving authority over men . Part of the difficuty arises because the greek word authenteo occurs here and nowhere else in the new testament. There are many interpretations of authenteo one says to dominate. While the word authenteo has been translated by the word authority in nearly all english bibles, it is not the same as exousia the word use for authority in many other passages.Evidence suggests another meaning of authenteo from that time period - that of"originator".As a result the interpretation, the passage could be translated "im not allowing(present tense for that situation)a women to teach or proclaim herself as the originator of man. Adam first was formed first, not eve. In light of the prevailing mother-goddess heresy and emerging gnosticism in 1st and 2 timothy and titus,It seems clear paul was bringing correction in1 tim 2:11-15. He was correcting women or even a "wife" who was teaching some sort of heresy.We find many passages to show that women did indeed teach men and held significant places as leaders in the chruch ( acts18:26,21:9,rom16:1,3,7).The old testament also teaching men(2kings22:14,prov1:8,31:26,and micah 6:4)

[irishcowboy]

Hello Michael.

One of my favourite topics. Where's the matches?

Read the bible I'd say.

I believe this;

GE 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

That the Church have been without their better halfs too long. We have all been the losers in this.

Women should take up the yoke and pull their weight. We need a whole Church.

Since we are all one in Christ anything that stops one of the Royal Priesthood from fulfilling her role is sin and diminishes all of us.

But I am afraid it will be the women who cause the most strife here because they like the easy life!

women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.  1 Corinthians 14:34

So the Amen must be said in their head?

johnp.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

as the law says, what does the Law say about women these days?

who is actually teaching and preaching? if a man is filled with the Spirit of the Lord, then is it the man or the Holy Spirit that is teaching/preaching?

fi a woman is filled with the Spirit of the Lord, who is doing the teaching/preaching? the woman? or the Holy Spirit?

mike

[Guest Your_love_is_the_anchor]

I don't see anything wrong with women pastors or women in ministry. I go to a Mennonite church and my pastor now is a woman, and so was the pastor before, and they're just as good as anyone else! The fact that the Bible says women should be silent in churches, especially in the New Testament, is very troubling for me. I guess I should read some of those articles, though, before jumping to conclusions.

[book_wirm]

I too am nervous in replying to this post. It is without a doubt one of the most emotionally charged issues that churches today face. I will try to say what I have to say without offending...I hope I can do this.

I believe, and my families life proves this, that it is the role of a woman to remain silent in the church. Has this passage been misused? Perhaps, but if so then by both sides. My, and my families (I say this because it includes my wife and daughters) are of the mindset that a woman should not be a pastor, should remain silent in the church, and other things which do not pertain to this topic and would only cause more grief than necessary.

I do feel it is necessary to answer some of the comments that have been made, specifically the post that listed several questions which seem to prove a contradiction of doctrine and practice. They were along the lines of "If a woman should be silent why is there women's classes?" and such.

Below are the scriptures we believe instruct us in the proper role of women in the church.

I Corinthians 14:34

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

It has been said that this silence is not actually "silence" but something else. I think this is poor interpretation. If we look just 6 verses prior Paul instructs another group to maintain silence: speakers of tongue where no interpreter is present. Which is it? Should this individual say what they will or should they keep silent? This is not the only place women are told to keep silence in the church either. In I Timothy 2:12 we read:

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but

to be in silence.

Questions were raised as to why woman teach children, other woman, and make comments in study groups. To this I will say first that the women in my family do not make comments in study groups for it is in direct opposition to these passages. If questions arise in their mind during such studies they are instructed what they must do.

I Corinthians 14:35

And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

We do believe that there is no scriptural reason why a woman cannot teach children or other women. On this we read in Titus 2:3-4b:

The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness,

not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

That they may teach the young women....

Following this instruction for the aged women to teach the younger women is a list of things that they are to teach them. Furthermore, we are told that Timothy, Paul son in the faith, was instructed in the scriptures from his youth by his mother and grandmother.

As to when if ever a woman may open her mouth to say a thing in church, I see no reason why outside of scriptural instruction a woman cannot speak with her friends and such. There is no mandate that this is wrong. The prohibition is only ever applied to the teaching of scripture. Part of the misunderstanding I think comes from incorrectly defining "church". It never was, nor should it now be, considered the building in which we meet for we, not the building, are the church. A woman then is not prohibited from speaking with friends and enjoying fellowship once she enters the door but rather from commenting on and instructing in the scripture when in the "church": ie. the gathered body of believers.

I know this is not a popular belief, but I believe it is a scriptural one. Again, I have not intended to offend. If I have done so, please, in Christian charity, believe that I have done so only because I could speak nothing other than what my consience and the scripture says.

I will watch for further discussion and humbly offer any answers that are required of me.

In Christ,

Eric

[Guest devittjl]

What about the qualifications of an elder (deacon) in 1 Timothy 3:12 one of which is "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife"

How can a person of leadership in the church be a woman if they have to be a husband?

The scriptures do not change meaning because of the day of age.

[Guest PistosHuios]

This is interesting indeed. I'm not sure what has gone on in the past discussions of this issue but has ANYONE considered the Greek in this issue? Many, not few, have suggested that the 1 Cor. passage in discussion, and others that hint towards women being "silent" could possibly be rendered "Wives". The greek word for women used is a general word whice means women, but in certain contexts we Translate it "wives, wife" the word is "gunay" (that's it's transliteration). The same thing happens to the generals word for man "aner". When talking about "husbands and wives" the words often being used are simply mand or women.

Case has a lot to do with it, when the word is being used "possessively" "the man's woman" translators would be right in using the words "husbands wife" and it wouldn't change the meaning. However, In the case of some of the Timothy, and Corinthian passages it isn't clear if Wife, or Woman is the right word and they always fall back to the general use of "woman". Technically, woman CAN be translated Wives, in the 1 corinthian passage, meaning that Wives are to be silent, and that would make sense because later on they are to consult their husbands at home, and not all women have husbands to consult!

I personally believe women can teach, testify, and talk. However, I also believe that the Word clearly shows that MEN are to be the leaders in decision making, both in the Church, and in the home. Not as a sort of Tyranny but as the Son of God submits to the final authority of the Father.

I don't believe that their is enough evidence in the old Testament to justify letting all women hold office.

James said it rightly "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater stricness". Jas. 3.1

And I"m not sure how a women can be "the husband of one wife" 1 TIm 3:2 and 1 Tim 3:12. I think if we ignore the Obvious implications this verse has, we are blind. It seems clear that in regards to OFFICES in the church, Paul, and God Himself expected those offices to be held by Men, with one wife. Otherwise it would say something in regards to or wife of one husband, but it doesn't.

That's my view and I hold strongly to it.

[Guest shecaniah]

Brothers and Sisters,  Last night I heard this subject come up ? And I have been thinking about it ever since . I am not sure how I feel about this for sure !

women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.