Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?

[iamlamad]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

 

 

 

Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God.

To answer the OP question, both.

 

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

 

 

Have you even considered that both the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ are at the BEGINNING of the Millennium instead of during the seven years?

 

Consider Yeshua`s words at the Last Supper, His Last Pesach Seder (Passover Feast) with His students:

 

Matthew 26:27-29

 

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

    

Luke 22:17-18

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

 

And yet, as we learn from the marriage at Cana, our Master's first miracle, wine is an INTEGRAL part of the Jewish marriage supper! And, the Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, is NOT in "heaven" but is rather right here on this earth after the Messiah returns!

 

Then, in answer to your questions about Matthew 25, the "sheep" are those nations who treated His people well, and His people are both the Isra'elites (His natural Family) and the believers grafted into the Olive Tree against nature (His adopted Family). The "goats" are those nations who mistreated and abused His people! This is a WAR TRIBUNAL and it occurs AFTER the battle at Har-Megiddown, or as it is known today, "Tel Megiddo," the tel that overlooks the Yizra`'el (Jezreel) Valley east and south of Haifa, Isra'el, and Mount Karmel. All the nations who came to fight in the multi-nation confrontation must answer at that time to the new Melekh Yisra'el (the new King of Isra'el). Neither the "sheep" nations nor the "goat" nations are God's people! They are the ones who are judged for HOW they treated God's people!

 

I think we MUST follow what John wrote and allow his writing to form our beliefs. John clearly shows the wedding and supper IN HEAVEN before He gets on the white horse. Therefore I am conviced it will happen just as he wrote it. I might add, there are several who have been in heaven and seen the tables all ready, stretching out as far as the eyes can see - and came back to tell and write what they saw.

 

If we believe in John's chronology, a post trib rapture will not work! They will miss the wedding and supper.

 

Next, if the rapture took place at the time of Jesus on the white horse, where would there be any sheep for the judgment of the nations? The righteous people would all have bodies as angels. Again, a posttrib rapture will not work.

 

Lamad

 

 

Not so, bro'. If you want to strictly follow the timing of the Revelation, you must also adhere to the time when the Kingdom is given to the Messiah! This occurred in Rev. 11:15-19:

 

    

Revelation 11:15-19

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH), and of his Christ (Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come (a reference to Psalm 2:1-12), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

KJV

 

Psalm 2:1-12

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed (Hebrew: Mashiyach), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord  with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

KJV (quotation marks added; words of the kings in blue; words of the Messiah in red; words of God the Father in purple)

 

This occurs ON THE EARTH! Some say that the first time the Messiah is seen on the earth is in Revelation 19:11-21, but that is just when He comes WITH HIS ARMY already raised from the dead, well equipped with horses and battle equipment, trained and ready to fight against the enemies of Isra'el. Consider the following verse:

 

Revelation 14:1

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (Hebrew: har Tsiown = the "holy hill of Zion"), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

KJV

 

and

 

Revelation 19:11-21

11 And I saw heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) opened (Greek: eeneoogmenon from anoigoo, the same word used in Revelation 11:19 and Matthew 3:16), and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: (another reference to Psalm 2:1-12) and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

KJV

 

These last verses 17 through 21 refer specifically to the aftermath of the battle at Har-Megiddown (Armageddon), the watchtower overlooking the valley of Yizre`'el (Jezreel), east and southeast of Haifa, Isra'el.

 

    

Joel 3:9-17

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat ("YHWH will judge"): for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

KJV

 

and the resurrection has already occurred by this time!

 

    

Zechariah 12:7-14

7 The Lord  also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

KJV

 

It's simply that a bad understanding of "heaven" has given rise to all sorts of untenable interpretations of Revelation.

 

Matthew 5:12

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

Matthew 5:16

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

Matthew 5:34

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

 

Matthew 5:45

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

Matthew 6:9

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

 

Acts 3:21

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

Acts 7:55

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

There are many more, but what is the point? OF COUSE heaven is also where GOD IS. The same Greek word is used for BOTH.  It is where many Jews (Hebrews) will be when Jesus descends and sends His angels to gather His "elect" from BOTH HEAVEN and earth.

 

WHY is he gathering them? Your guess won't work here, because you have guessed incorrectly that it is Paul's rapture, which it is not. Perhaps it is the gathering for the judgement of the nations. It seems very likely that God will have all His "brethren" there.

 

As for the "beginning of the Millennium," that is not where  you are guessing it is. The exact point between the old millennium and the new is the 7th trumpet that also divides the 70th week. So the last half of the week is in the NEW Mellennium.

 

OF COURSE HE saw heaven opened - he has been IN heaven for this vision. Jesus has just ended the marriage and supper which took place IN HEAVEN - the same heaven where God's throne is - and is then seen descending down to earth on the white horse. There is no need to rearrange any of this to fit pet theories; leave it exactly as it is written and you will stay out of trouble with your doctrine. The wedding is in heaven. The pretrib rapture takes people to heaven FOR the wedding. The supper is in heaven. AFTER the wedding and supper, THEN  Jesus descends to earth and all the heavenly armies with Him, for the battle of Armageddon. After that, the judgment of the nations.

Of course, by the battle of Armageddon, the resurrection of the dead in Christ will have happened, for John saw that in Rev. 7. The resurrection of the OLD Testament saints will have happened for that happened at the 7th vial. So over course, the only resurrection left to happen is the second resurrection for the lost.

 

It is much wiser to form doctrine as much as possible from the New Testament rather than the Old for it is a more full and complete revelation. Some times in the old, there is a 2000 year difference in time and events IN the SAME verse. Revelation is not written like that. It is very chronological. When Revelation shows the marriage in heaven before Jesus gets onto His white horse, we can KNOW that is the order it will happen.

 

Lamad

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

 

 

 

Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God.

To answer the OP question, both.

 

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

 

 

Have you even considered that both the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ are at the BEGINNING of the Millennium instead of during the seven years?

 

Consider Yeshua`s words at the Last Supper, His Last Pesach Seder (Passover Feast) with His students:

 

Matthew 26:27-29

 

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

    

Luke 22:17-18

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

 

And yet, as we learn from the marriage at Cana, our Master's first miracle, wine is an INTEGRAL part of the Jewish marriage supper! And, the Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, is NOT in "heaven" but is rather right here on this earth after the Messiah returns!

 

Then, in answer to your questions about Matthew 25, the "sheep" are those nations who treated His people well, and His people are both the Isra'elites (His natural Family) and the believers grafted into the Olive Tree against nature (His adopted Family). The "goats" are those nations who mistreated and abused His people! This is a WAR TRIBUNAL and it occurs AFTER the battle at Har-Megiddown, or as it is known today, "Tel Megiddo," the tel that overlooks the Yizra`'el (Jezreel) Valley east and south of Haifa, Isra'el, and Mount Karmel. All the nations who came to fight in the multi-nation confrontation must answer at that time to the new Melekh Yisra'el (the new King of Isra'el). Neither the "sheep" nations nor the "goat" nations are God's people! They are the ones who are judged for HOW they treated God's people!

 

I think we MUST follow what John wrote and allow his writing to form our beliefs. John clearly shows the wedding and supper IN HEAVEN before He gets on the white horse. Therefore I am conviced it will happen just as he wrote it. I might add, there are several who have been in heaven and seen the tables all ready, stretching out as far as the eyes can see - and came back to tell and write what they saw.

 

If we believe in John's chronology, a post trib rapture will not work! They will miss the wedding and supper.

 

Next, if the rapture took place at the time of Jesus on the white horse, where would there be any sheep for the judgment of the nations? The righteous people would all have bodies as angels. Again, a posttrib rapture will not work.

 

Lamad

 

 

Not so, bro'. If you want to strictly follow the timing of the Revelation, you must also adhere to the time when the Kingdom is given to the Messiah! This occurred in Rev. 11:15-19:

 

    

Revelation 11:15-19

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH), and of his Christ (Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come (a reference to Psalm 2:1-12), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

KJV

 

Psalm 2:1-12

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed (Hebrew: Mashiyach), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord  with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

KJV (quotation marks added; words of the kings in blue; words of the Messiah in red; words of God the Father in purple)

 

This occurs ON THE EARTH! Some say that the first time the Messiah is seen on the earth is in Revelation 19:11-21, but that is just when He comes WITH HIS ARMY already raised from the dead, well equipped with horses and battle equipment, trained and ready to fight against the enemies of Isra'el. Consider the following verse:

 

Revelation 14:1

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (Hebrew: har Tsiown = the "holy hill of Zion"), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

KJV

 

and

 

Revelation 19:11-21

11 And I saw heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) opened (Greek: eeneoogmenon from anoigoo, the same word used in Revelation 11:19 and Matthew 3:16), and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: (another reference to Psalm 2:1-12) and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

KJV

 

These last verses 17 through 21 refer specifically to the aftermath of the battle at Har-Megiddown (Armageddon), the watchtower overlooking the valley of Yizre`'el (Jezreel), east and southeast of Haifa, Isra'el.

 

    

Joel 3:9-17

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat ("YHWH will judge"): for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

KJV

 

and the resurrection has already occurred by this time!

 

    

Zechariah 12:7-14

7 The Lord  also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

KJV

 

It's simply that a bad understanding of "heaven" has given rise to all sorts of untenable interpretations of Revelation.

 

Matthew 5:12

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

Matthew 5:16

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

Matthew 5:34

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

 

Matthew 5:45

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

Matthew 6:9

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

 

Acts 3:21

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

Acts 7:55

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

There are many more, but what is the point? OF COUSE heaven is also where GOD IS. The same Greek word is used for BOTH.  It is where many Jews (Hebrews) will be when Jesus descends and sends His angels to gather His "elect" from BOTH HEAVEN and earth.

 

WHY is he gathering them? Your guess won't work here, because you have guessed incorrectly that it is Paul's rapture, which it is not. Perhaps it is the gathering for the judgement of the nations. It seems very likely that God will have all His "brethren" there.

 

As for the "beginning of the Millennium," that is not where  you are guessing it is. The exact point between the old millennium and the new is the 7th trumpet that also divides the 70th week. So the last half of the week is in the NEW Mellennium.

 

OF COURSE HE saw heaven opened - he has been IN heaven for this vision. Jesus has just ended the marriage and supper which took place IN HEAVEN - the same heaven where God's throne is - and is then seen descending down to earth on the white horse. There is no need to rearrange any of this to fit pet theories; leave it exactly as it is written and you will stay out of trouble with your doctrine. The wedding is in heaven. The pretrib rapture takes people to heaven FOR the wedding. The supper is in heaven. AFTER the wedding and supper, THEN  Jesus descends to earth and all the heavenly armies with Him, for the battle of Armageddon. After that, the judgment of the nations.

Of course, by the battle of Armageddon, the resurrection of the dead in Christ will have happened, for John saw that in Rev. 7. The resurrection of the OLD Testament saints will have happened for that happened at the 7th vial. So over course, the only resurrection left to happen is the second resurrection for the lost.

 

It is much wiser to form doctrine as much as possible from the New Testament rather than the Old for it is a more full and complete revelation. Some times in the old, there is a 2000 year difference in time and events IN the SAME verse. Revelation is not written like that. It is very chronological. When Revelation shows the marriage in heaven before Jesus gets onto His white horse, we can KNOW that is the order it will happen.

 

Lamad
 

 

 

Well, let me give you a few verses, too:

 

 

    

Matthew 16:1-4

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

KJV

 

In all four of the highlighted words above, the root Greek word used is "ouranos." How would the Greeks who read this passage have distinguished between the word "ouranos" in verse 1 and the words "ouranos" in verses 2 and 3? The answer is, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE!

 

The word "ouranos" is the root word that is used in EVERY VERSE you quoted above!!! Yet, there are FOUR other Greek words that were translated "heaven," "heavens," "sky," "air," or "heavenly."

 

Let's look quickly at the Greek of each of the seven verses you quoted:

 

Matthew 5:12 - ... en tois ouranois, literally "in the skies"

Matthew 5:16 - ... en tois ouranois, literally "in the skies"

Matthew 5:34 - ... en too ouranoo, literally "in the sky"

Matthew 5:45 - ... en ouranois, literally "in skies"

Matthew 6:9 - ... en tois ouranois, literally "in the skies"

Acts 3:21 - ... hon dei ouranon men dexasthai, literally "whom must [the] sky indeed receive" or "whom [the] sky must indeed receive"

Acts 7:55 - ... eis ton ouranon, literally "into the sky"

 

and I'll throw one in for good measure...

 

Acts 7:56 - ... idou theooroo tous ouranous dieenoigmenous, literally "Look! I see the skies thoroughly opened!"

 

And, in keeping with this verse, let's add three more passages:

 

            

Matthew 3:16-17

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him (Greek: eeneoochtheesan autoo hoi ouranoi = were-opened to-Him the skies), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven (Greek: foonee ek toon ouranoon = a-voice out-of the skies), saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

KJV

    

Acts 1:9-11

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up (Greek: kai hoos atenizontes eesan eis ton ouranon poreuomenou autou = and while gazing-intently they-were into the sky as-went-up he), behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (Greek: esteekate emblepontes eis ton ouranon = why stand ye-gazing-up into the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (Greek: ho analeemftheis af' humoon eis ton ouranon = which is-taken-up away-from you into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (Greek: etheasasthe auton poreuomenon eis ton ouranon = ye-have-seen Him depart into the sky).

KJV

    

Acts 9:3-6

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven (Greek: exaifnees te auton perieestrapsen foos ek tou ouranou = suddenly also to-him there-shined-around-him a-light out-of the sky):

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

KJV

 

ALL of this is from the Greek NEW TESTAMENT!, since that's important to you. Actually, however, one should be learning from BOTH "Testaments!" While it is true that the New Testament explains the Old Testament, the Old Testament gives the background for the New Testament! Without the Old Testament, one CANNOT understand the New Testament any better than the Old Testament could be understood without the New!

 

Now, let's talk theology: Do you believe in the omnipresence of God? I certainly do; it's one of the basic tenets of theology proper. So, the question is "Where is God NOT?!" "Heaven is NOT where God is!" Heaven (or rather the sky) is just one place of MANY where God is! There are MANY more places where God is!

 

 

Psalm 139:7-12

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

KJV

 

1 Kings 8:22-29

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven:

23 And he said, Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.

25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.

26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:

29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.

KJV

 

2 Chronicles 2:3-6

3 And Solomon sent to Huram the king of Tyre, saying, As thou didst deal with David my father, and didst send him cedars to build him an house to dwell therein, even so deal with me.

4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the Lord our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.

6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

KJV

 

2 Chronicles 6:13-18

13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven,

14 And said, O Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts:

15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.

16 Now therefore, O Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.

17 Now then, O Lord God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.

18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

KJV

 

Nehemiah 9:1-6

1 Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackclothes, and earth upon them.

2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.

3 And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of the Lord their God one fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped the Lord their God.

4 Then stood up upon the stairs, of the Levites, Jeshua, and Bani, Kadmiel, Shebaniah, Bunni, Sherebiah, Bani, and Chenani, and cried with a loud voice unto the Lord their God.

5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the Lord your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.

6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

KJV

 

So, the heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = skies) and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = and the sky of the skies or outer space) cannot contain Him; so, where is this abode of God you are talking about? It DOESN'T EXIST! The closest thing to it is the New Jerusalem which is currently "under construction" in space.

[iamlamad]

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

 

 

 

Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God.

To answer the OP question, both.

 

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

 

 

Have you even considered that both the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ are at the BEGINNING of the Millennium instead of during the seven years?

 

Consider Yeshua`s words at the Last Supper, His Last Pesach Seder (Passover Feast) with His students:

 

Matthew 26:27-29

 

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

    

Luke 22:17-18

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

 

And yet, as we learn from the marriage at Cana, our Master's first miracle, wine is an INTEGRAL part of the Jewish marriage supper! And, the Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, is NOT in "heaven" but is rather right here on this earth after the Messiah returns!

 

Then, in answer to your questions about Matthew 25, the "sheep" are those nations who treated His people well, and His people are both the Isra'elites (His natural Family) and the believers grafted into the Olive Tree against nature (His adopted Family). The "goats" are those nations who mistreated and abused His people! This is a WAR TRIBUNAL and it occurs AFTER the battle at Har-Megiddown, or as it is known today, "Tel Megiddo," the tel that overlooks the Yizra`'el (Jezreel) Valley east and south of Haifa, Isra'el, and Mount Karmel. All the nations who came to fight in the multi-nation confrontation must answer at that time to the new Melekh Yisra'el (the new King of Isra'el). Neither the "sheep" nations nor the "goat" nations are God's people! They are the ones who are judged for HOW they treated God's people!

 

I think we MUST follow what John wrote and allow his writing to form our beliefs. John clearly shows the wedding and supper IN HEAVEN before He gets on the white horse. Therefore I am conviced it will happen just as he wrote it. I might add, there are several who have been in heaven and seen the tables all ready, stretching out as far as the eyes can see - and came back to tell and write what they saw.

 

If we believe in John's chronology, a post trib rapture will not work! They will miss the wedding and supper.

 

Next, if the rapture took place at the time of Jesus on the white horse, where would there be any sheep for the judgment of the nations? The righteous people would all have bodies as angels. Again, a posttrib rapture will not work.

 

Lamad

 

 

Not so, bro'. If you want to strictly follow the timing of the Revelation, you must also adhere to the time when the Kingdom is given to the Messiah! This occurred in Rev. 11:15-19:

 

    

Revelation 11:15-19

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH), and of his Christ (Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come (a reference to Psalm 2:1-12), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

KJV

 

Psalm 2:1-12

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed (Hebrew: Mashiyach), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord  with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

KJV (quotation marks added; words of the kings in blue; words of the Messiah in red; words of God the Father in purple)

 

This occurs ON THE EARTH! Some say that the first time the Messiah is seen on the earth is in Revelation 19:11-21, but that is just when He comes WITH HIS ARMY already raised from the dead, well equipped with horses and battle equipment, trained and ready to fight against the enemies of Isra'el. Consider the following verse:

 

Revelation 14:1

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (Hebrew: har Tsiown = the "holy hill of Zion"), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

KJV

 

and

 

Revelation 19:11-21

11 And I saw heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) opened (Greek: eeneoogmenon from anoigoo, the same word used in Revelation 11:19 and Matthew 3:16), and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: (another reference to Psalm 2:1-12) and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

KJV

 

These last verses 17 through 21 refer specifically to the aftermath of the battle at Har-Megiddown (Armageddon), the watchtower overlooking the valley of Yizre`'el (Jezreel), east and southeast of Haifa, Isra'el.

 

    

Joel 3:9-17

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat ("YHWH will judge"): for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

KJV

 

and the resurrection has already occurred by this time!

 

    

Zechariah 12:7-14

7 The Lord  also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

KJV

 

It's simply that a bad understanding of "heaven" has given rise to all sorts of untenable interpretations of Revelation.

 

Matthew 5:12

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

Matthew 5:16

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

Matthew 5:34

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

 

Matthew 5:45

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

Matthew 6:9

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

 

Acts 3:21

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

Acts 7:55

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

There are many more, but what is the point? OF COUSE heaven is also where GOD IS. The same Greek word is used for BOTH.  It is where many Jews (Hebrews) will be when Jesus descends and sends His angels to gather His "elect" from BOTH HEAVEN and earth.

 

WHY is he gathering them? Your guess won't work here, because you have guessed incorrectly that it is Paul's rapture, which it is not. Perhaps it is the gathering for the judgement of the nations. It seems very likely that God will have all His "brethren" there.

 

As for the "beginning of the Millennium," that is not where  you are guessing it is. The exact point between the old millennium and the new is the 7th trumpet that also divides the 70th week. So the last half of the week is in the NEW Mellennium.

 

OF COURSE HE saw heaven opened - he has been IN heaven for this vision. Jesus has just ended the marriage and supper which took place IN HEAVEN - the same heaven where God's throne is - and is then seen descending down to earth on the white horse. There is no need to rearrange any of this to fit pet theories; leave it exactly as it is written and you will stay out of trouble with your doctrine. The wedding is in heaven. The pretrib rapture takes people to heaven FOR the wedding. The supper is in heaven. AFTER the wedding and supper, THEN  Jesus descends to earth and all the heavenly armies with Him, for the battle of Armageddon. After that, the judgment of the nations.

Of course, by the battle of Armageddon, the resurrection of the dead in Christ will have happened, for John saw that in Rev. 7. The resurrection of the OLD Testament saints will have happened for that happened at the 7th vial. So over course, the only resurrection left to happen is the second resurrection for the lost.

 

It is much wiser to form doctrine as much as possible from the New Testament rather than the Old for it is a more full and complete revelation. Some times in the old, there is a 2000 year difference in time and events IN the SAME verse. Revelation is not written like that. It is very chronological. When Revelation shows the marriage in heaven before Jesus gets onto His white horse, we can KNOW that is the order it will happen.

 

Lamad

 

 

 

Well, let me give you a few verses, too:

 

 

    

Matthew 16:1-4

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

KJV

 

In all four of the highlighted words above, the root Greek word used is "ouranos." How would the Greeks who read this passage have distinguished between the word "ouranos" in verse 1 and the words "ouranos" in verses 2 and 3? The answer is, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE!

 

The word "ouranos" is the root word that is used in EVERY VERSE you quoted above!!! Yet, there are FOUR other Greek words that were translated "heaven," "heavens," "sky," "air," or "heavenly."

 

Let's look quickly at the Greek of each of the seven verses you quoted:

 

Matthew 5:12 - ... en tois ouranois, literally "in the skies"

Matthew 5:16 - ... en tois ouranois, literally "in the skies"

Matthew 5:34 - ... en too ouranoo, literally "in the sky"

Matthew 5:45 - ... en ouranois, literally "in skies"

Matthew 6:9 - ... en tois ouranois, literally "in the skies"

Acts 3:21 - ... hon dei ouranon men dexasthai, literally "whom must [the] sky indeed receive" or "whom [the] sky must indeed receive"

Acts 7:55 - ... eis ton ouranon, literally "into the sky"

 

and I'll throw one in for good measure...

 

Acts 7:56 - ... idou theooroo tous ouranous dieenoigmenous, literally "Look! I see the skies thoroughly opened!"

 

And, in keeping with this verse, let's add three more passages:

 

            

Matthew 3:16-17

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him (Greek: eeneoochtheesan autoo hoi ouranoi = were-opened to-Him the skies), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven (Greek: foonee ek toon ouranoon = a-voice out-of the skies), saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

KJV

    

Acts 1:9-11

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up (Greek: kai hoos atenizontes eesan eis ton ouranon poreuomenou autou = and while gazing-intently they-were into the sky as-went-up he), behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (Greek: esteekate emblepontes eis ton ouranon = why stand ye-gazing-up into the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (Greek: ho analeemftheis af' humoon eis ton ouranon = which is-taken-up away-from you into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (Greek: etheasasthe auton poreuomenon eis ton ouranon = ye-have-seen Him depart into the sky).

KJV

    

Acts 9:3-6

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven (Greek: exaifnees te auton perieestrapsen foos ek tou ouranou = suddenly also to-him there-shined-around-him a-light out-of the sky):

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

KJV

 

ALL of this is from the Greek NEW TESTAMENT!, since that's important to you. Actually, however, one should be learning from BOTH "Testaments!" While it is true that the New Testament explains the Old Testament, the Old Testament gives the background for the New Testament! Without the Old Testament, one CANNOT understand the New Testament any better than the Old Testament could be understood without the New!

 

Now, let's talk theology: Do you believe in the omnipresence of God? I certainly do; it's one of the basic tenets of theology proper. So, the question is "Where is God NOT?!" "Heaven is NOT where God is!" Heaven (or rather the sky) is just one place of MANY where God is! There are MANY more places where God is!

 

 

Psalm 139:7-12

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

KJV

 

1 Kings 8:22-29

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven:

23 And he said, Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.

25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.

26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:

29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.

KJV

 

2 Chronicles 2:3-6

3 And Solomon sent to Huram the king of Tyre, saying, As thou didst deal with David my father, and didst send him cedars to build him an house to dwell therein, even so deal with me.

4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the Lord our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.

6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

KJV

 

2 Chronicles 6:13-18

13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven,

14 And said, O Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts:

15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.

16 Now therefore, O Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.

17 Now then, O Lord God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.

18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

KJV

 

Nehemiah 9:1-6

1 Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackclothes, and earth upon them.

2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.

3 And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of the Lord their God one fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped the Lord their God.

4 Then stood up upon the stairs, of the Levites, Jeshua, and Bani, Kadmiel, Shebaniah, Bunni, Sherebiah, Bani, and Chenani, and cried with a loud voice unto the Lord their God.

5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the Lord your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.

6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

KJV

 

So, the heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = skies) and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = and the sky of the skies or outer space) cannot contain Him; so, where is this abode of God you are talking about? It DOESN'T EXIST! The closest thing to it is the New Jerusalem which is currently "under construction" in space.

 

WHERE is GOD?

 

John 14

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Isaiah 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

 

So WHERE is God? Father God is always seen sitten on the throne. WHERE is the throne? It is on the temple. WHERE is this temple? It is in heaven. Ibelieve Heaven is a planet. But it is in the realm of the spirit - a different dimention than we live in. There are many who have gone there. When Jessie Duplantis went, he said it was like a cable car, only no cable. His angel got him and then went at tremendous speed through space in this 'cable" car. they left earth, they left our solar system. They approached a planet that from a distance looked very much like earth. It had mountains. Several others who have seen the heavenly planet also tell us there are mountains.

 

All who have been to the temple to see the throne say it is very "high and lifted up" where one can see it from a long distance.

 

There are mansions there. He said He was going to prepare a place for us. Here is a story of someone who saw her own mansion:

 

"

The golden streets amazed me, and I felt so happy as we walked along this place the Lord has prepared for His own. The street looked slippery because it was so shiny, but felt normal underfoot. Because of its brightness, it resembled an indoor ice-skating rink. Sunlight, it seemed, was shooting through the whole place.

...

We walked past many mansions and castles, each more exquisite than the last. In front of one of these dwellings, the Lord stopped emphatically. I knew He was going to take me inside, and I was excited beyond all measure. My heart kept skipping beats as we walked up the front steps.

My eyes were drawn to the doorknob, which was made of gold. Then I saw a gold plate on the front door. It had a name inscribed on it, and I realized quickly that it was my name. I almost fainted with surprise....

This was the place Jesus had prepared for me! I was amazed. It was too good to be true. Here I was, standing at the door of a regal palace in heaven, and my name was inscribed in gold on its beautiful door! It was too much to take in! My head reeled in astonishment. How could these things be?

I cried tears of gratitude and joy as my heart overflowed with love and adoration for the Lord. I had never really anticipated such wonderful things from Him. I had always felt that if He simply noticed me it would be OK, but now He literally was showering His blessings on me!

I had tasted the living water, and I knew I would never thirst again. I had tasted the purple fruit of paradise, and I could never hunger for the things of the world again.

I had been with Jesus--my Lord and Master--and He had taken me to the mansion He had made for me. I wept openly as the Lord led me into the house. He said: “Do not cry, My daughter. I want you to be happy.”

As we stepped across the threshold of the mansion, spiritual songs welled up from my heart, and I continued to cry tears of joy and gratitude. I was awestruck by the sparkling stone walls that lined the corridor of my mansion. I loved the red-and-cream-colored carpet with its round patterns. The red velvet chairs--so classic and sophisticated--were like the ones I had always wanted in my home. The red draperies were the finest I’d ever seen.

The Lord took His seat on one of the velvet chairs as I walked up the majestic stairway, savoring every single moment in my mansion. The bedroom was carpeted in pure white, and I noticed that the headboard of the bed was silver with blue stones embedded decoratively along its border.

The mirror on the dresser also had blue stones highlighting its brightness. The bathroom had a silver bathtub that was decorated with precious jewels of every color.

I sang as I walked around the interior of my mansion. I felt like a princess in fairyland. But I knew this was no fantasy--it was more real than I had ever imagined. I had always believed in a heavenly paradise, but I had never been absolutely sure of its existence. Now I knew, beyond all doubt, that heaven is real, and I wanted everyone in the world to know it, too.

After several moments of wonderful joy, I walked down the stairs to where the Lord was sitting. He stood up and asked, “Are you happy, Choo Nam?”

I knew the Lord was happy about showing me my mansion.

Many others have seen their own mansion. This is only one testimony out of many. Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us. I believe Him.

 

Here is a testimony about the throne of God:

 

Beyond all my power of description are the splendors of the throne itself.  As we approached nearer the center of the great city and to the region of the Father’s throne, mighty waves of light and glory came constantly rolling over us, and with them came such refreshing baths of love, peace and joy, that our gladness was indescribable, having reached a degree of perfection never known before.  The noiseless chariots were moving in all directions.  Countless throngs of happy spirits, clothed in the purest garments and the expression of every face being that of the serenest peace and composure of soul were moving toward and from the throne.

The vastness of the various compartments of the throne is beyond all earthly comparison.  For many furlongs it was spread out in all directions before us.  Bohemond came close to my side and said in a low voice: "Whoever could have thought of such glory!" Light, all filled with glory, heightened beyond all human conception of earthly things revealed the splendors of the throne beyond the powers of a man to describe, so that I kept thinking of the word which I had so long heard: "That God is light and in Him is no darkness at all"

Enoch now led us to the throne itself.  It was encircled by wonderful majestic bands of light with all the colors of the rainbow, which signified the attributes of the Almighty God and Father of us all.  We seemed now to comprehend God as we never had before.  I thought of the band of light that encircles the planet Saturn, the gold tinged clouds of an earthly sunset; but no comparison could describe its glory.  Beneath the circle of this rainbow was the seat of the Almighty Father.  For beauty, grandeur, glory and majesty, it cannot be described.  It was simply upholstered glory, with all the colors of the rainbow tinging everything.

I looked again, to scan the throne once more, and saw twenty-four seats of most exquisite beauty on both sides of the throne.  I knew from the blessed word these were for the elders; but they were mostly vacant now, for the elders, I had found, are very busily engaged in service for Him who is on this throne; yes, the throne of the universe.

 

For thirty furlongs or more distant from our great Father’s seat was the outer circle of the mighty throng gathered beneath the great arched canopy of this imperial throne.  The four angels now returned and flying in the midst of the throne, were sounding through their trumpets, saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty; which was, and which is, and which is to come."

 

I looked again and an elder whom I had met, beckoned me with his hand to his side.  I quickly obeyed and bounded up to the great gallery where the elders sat, and he said: "Look again at the great concourse beyond," and I saw indeed the great multitude which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, having palms in their hands, and they cried and shouted with one great voice, saying: "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne and unto the Lamb," and all the angels fell on their faces and worshipped God and said "Amen."  From the book, Paradise, the Holy City  and the Glory of the Throne

 

Another book, the author said the pillars that hold up the roof of the temply must have been 30 feet in diameter and a thousand feet tall.

 

What then, did GOD say about it?

 

Rev 21

¹² And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

¹³ On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

¹⁴ And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

¹⁵ And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

¹⁶ And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

 

Almost all who have been there talk about these gates. they are HUGE, they are beautiful. Jessie saw Peter. Paul, James and John in that order on the foundation, before the angel pulled him through the gate.

 

Every book I have read about people who have gone, say similar things; they speak of the great peace, the bright light, the marvelous flowers, and indeed the greatest, the throme room of heaven. A  little girl of 4 1/2 went, and described those four beasts with eyes all around. She was very afraid of them at first, but she got used to them. She described them just as the bible does. She even sat on Jesus lap on the throne. She drew a crude picture of God's throne.

 

My point is, heaven is a very real place. there is a city there, the New Jerusalem. In that city is God's throne. On the throne sits our Heavenly father. Jesus is at His right hand.

 

lamad

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

IF you find a good Greek text, you will see that John wrote, (Rev. 1) I John in THE tribulation..." The "THE" is there is every Greek text I have found, yet no translator has dared translate it. It seems in the mind of God, the entire church age is "the tribulation" and parts of it have been "great tribulation." That is why those two words were not enough for Jesus to describe those days following the abmination: He had to add that there never was and never will be such a terrible time as what is coming.

 

Did you ever would WHY the marriage  and marriage supper are in chapter 19, after the entire 70th week is finished? If you notice in John chapter 6, Jesus says over and over that He will "raise them up" on the "last day." This is for the Old Testament saints: they will be raised on the last day. That last day is the same day the 7th vial ends the 70th week. They will be guests for the wedding  - so the wedding MUST wait until they are resurrected. So how long a time after the 7th vial ends the week, until Jesus gets on the Horse? Perhaps it is 30 days....but it is only a guess. Can you see why anyone thinking they KNOW the day Jesus returns are all wet? NO ONE will know the day. It will just be some short period of time after the 7th vial.

 

I have yet to have a post-tribber explain HOW they will get to the marriage supper. One told me the supper would be on the earth..........WRONG! Anyone got any ideas?  lamad

 

I have purposely gone back to this post to correct a couple of points that were foundational to the conversation.

 

The reasons for the Greek definite article are not the same as the reasons for the English definite article. If you indeed have yourself a good Greek New Testament then you will also notice that the definite article was frequently used for names as well, for example, "ho Ieesous," literally "the Jesus," and "ho Theos," or "the God." The presence of the definite article in Greek does NOT single out a particular noun, as a definite article does in English. Thus, even if the definite article, "tee," is found in "tee thlipsei," found in Revelation 1:9, its presence does NOT imply that it is a specific "thlipsei" or "tribulation." Simply pay attention to how often the definite article in Greek is ignored in translation. To point to a SPECIFIC object or event, the word "houtos" is used, usually translated "this one," or "touto," usually translated "this thing."

 

The "last day" doesn't end for a while! It continues for a THOUSAND YEARS!!! When the Messiah is reigning on behalf of His Father, He will glow with a brightness that rivals the sun shining in its strength! Thus, while He is reigning in Jerusalem, it will be LIKE it will be during the eternal state:

 

 

Revelation 21:23-26; 22:5

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten (Greek: efootisen = did shine; did brighten) it, and the Lamb is the light (Greek: luchnos = lamp) thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

...

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

KJV

 

First, it is important to understand that these verses do not say that there will be no sun or moon; they just say that the city will have no NEED for the sun or moon. Why not? Simply because "ha-kavowd Elohiym" or "hee doxa tou Theou" gave light to the city and the Lamb is the focus of this light, the "lightbulb," so to speak!

 

Second, I was rather hesitant to use these verses because technically they belong to the Eternal State AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment and not the Millennium which is BEFORE that Judgment. Just the same, they are applicable to explain why the Millennium is one VERY LONG day! We DO have other verses which ARE about the Millennium:

 

        

Malachi 4:1-6

1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

KJV

    

Isaiah 24:23

23 Then the moon shall be confounded (mixed up), and the sun ashamed (outdone), when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

KJV

 

These verses (and many more) speak of the Messiah literally glowing with a brightness that can't be ignored! There will be no night while Yeshua` is around! Thus, throughout the Millennium, there will be no night, and that means that the Day of the LORD will be a 1000-year day!

 

Third, and most importantly, read Revelation 19 CAREFULLY:

 

 

Revelation 19:1-21

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"), saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore (where IS this "large prostitute?" In "Heaven?" I don't think so!), which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (They are still on their way to the marriage but God is already reigning! See vs. 6 above!)

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron (see Psalm 2:9): and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God (see Isaiah 63:1-6).

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great (see Ezekiel 39:4).

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

KJV

 

This is in the AFTERMATH of the Battle at Har Megiddo or Tel Megiddo, "Armageddon!"

[iamlamad]

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

IF you find a good Greek text, you will see that John wrote, (Rev. 1) I John in THE tribulation..." The "THE" is there is every Greek text I have found, yet no translator has dared translate it. It seems in the mind of God, the entire church age is "the tribulation" and parts of it have been "great tribulation." That is why those two words were not enough for Jesus to describe those days following the abmination: He had to add that there never was and never will be such a terrible time as what is coming.

 

Did you ever would WHY the marriage  and marriage supper are in chapter 19, after the entire 70th week is finished? If you notice in John chapter 6, Jesus says over and over that He will "raise them up" on the "last day." This is for the Old Testament saints: they will be raised on the last day. That last day is the same day the 7th vial ends the 70th week. They will be guests for the wedding  - so the wedding MUST wait until they are resurrected. So how long a time after the 7th vial ends the week, until Jesus gets on the Horse? Perhaps it is 30 days....but it is only a guess. Can you see why anyone thinking they KNOW the day Jesus returns are all wet? NO ONE will know the day. It will just be some short period of time after the 7th vial.

 

I have yet to have a post-tribber explain HOW they will get to the marriage supper. One told me the supper would be on the earth..........WRONG! Anyone got any ideas?  lamad

 

I have purposely gone back to this post to correct a couple of points that were foundational to the conversation.

 

The reasons for the Greek definite article are not the same as the reasons for the English definite article. If you indeed have yourself a good Greek New Testament then you will also notice that the definite article was frequently used for names as well, for example, "ho Ieesous," literally "the Jesus," and "ho Theos," or "the God." The presence of the definite article in Greek does NOT single out a particular noun, as a definite article does in English. Thus, even if the definite article, "tee," is found in "tee thlipsei," found in Revelation 1:9, its presence does NOT imply that it is a specific "thlipsei" or "tribulation." Simply pay attention to how often the definite article in Greek is ignored in translation. To point to a SPECIFIC object or event, the word "houtos" is used, usually translated "this one," or "touto," usually translated "this thing."

 

The "last day" doesn't end for a while! It continues for a THOUSAND YEARS!!! When the Messiah is reigning on behalf of His Father, He will glow with a brightness that rivals the sun shining in its strength! Thus, while He is reigning in Jerusalem, it will be LIKE it will be during the eternal state:

 

 

Revelation 21:23-26; 22:5

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten (Greek: efootisen = did shine; did brighten) it, and the Lamb is the light (Greek: luchnos = lamp) thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

...

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

KJV

 

First, it is important to understand that these verses do not say that there will be no sun or moon; they just say that the city will have no NEED for the sun or moon. Why not? Simply because "ha-kavowd Elohiym" or "hee doxa tou Theou" gave light to the city and the Lamb is the focus of this light, the "lightbulb," so to speak!

 

Second, I was rather hesitant to use these verses because technically they belong to the Eternal State AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment and not the Millennium which is BEFORE that Judgment. Just the same, they are applicable to explain why the Millennium is one VERY LONG day! We DO have other verses which ARE about the Millennium:

 

        

Malachi 4:1-6

1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

KJV

    

Isaiah 24:23

23 Then the moon shall be confounded (mixed up), and the sun ashamed (outdone), when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

KJV

 

These verses (and many more) speak of the Messiah literally glowing with a brightness that can't be ignored! There will be no night while Yeshua` is around! Thus, throughout the Millennium, there will be no night, and that means that the Day of the LORD will be a 1000-year day!

 

Third, and most importantly, read Revelation 19 CAREFULLY:

 

 

Revelation 19:1-21

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"), saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore (where IS this "large prostitute?" In "Heaven?" I don't think so!), which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (They are still on their way to the marriage but God is already reigning! See vs. 6 above!)

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron (see Psalm 2:9): and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God (see Isaiah 63:1-6).

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great (see Ezekiel 39:4).

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

KJV

 

This is in the AFTERMATH of the Battle at Har Megiddo or Tel Megiddo, "Armageddon!"

 

 

 

You live in a "change the scripture to fit my theory" dreamland. The wedding will be in heaven. You will miss it. Teh wedding supper will be in heaven, and you will miss it.

 

There will be a supper on the earth, but it will not be the marriage supper! There will be a gathering, but you will not want to be a part of it.

 

I have discovered, it does absolutely no good to show you (or most other) posttribbers scripture, for you just change it to make it say what you want. You change the order if need be, to fit your order.

 

Sorry, it will not work. Oh, you can do what you want now, but when it happens, it is going to happen just like John wrote it.

 

It will not be my fault, for I have been diligent in showing you exactly what will happen.

 

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven (Greek: en too ouranoo = "in the sky"), saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

 

They are IN HEAVEN. It is a real place, NOT in our atmosphere at all, but clear out of our solar system....People that have gone there say they saw the earth get smaller and smaller and then they passed the sun and traveled right out of our solar system. Just so you will have been told at least once, the New Jerusalem is right now in heaven, not in the air, but on the heavenly planet. It is a planet. People that have been there say that it has mountians and rivers just as earth does. It is what Paul called the 3rd heaven. sorry, NO SKY.  When Isaiah saw the Lord, "high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple,: this temple is NOT in the air, it is in heaven, the heavenly planet. A little girl named Victoria went to visit when she was less than five years old. She saw the throne. She sat on Jesus lap on the throne. She saw the same 4 beasts that Ezekiel saw, with eyes all around and was at first scared of them. She drew a crude picture of the Throne of God. By the way, no one has EVER seen the father anywhere else but on His throne. They never see all of him, usually just an outline and his legs. It is just TOO BRIGHT to see Him.

 

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore (where IS this "large prostitute?" In "Heaven?" I don't think so!), which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

 

The whore is just who John said it was, the "great city" of Jerusalem. And it is destroyed, first by earthquake, and then by fire.

 

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.  He bagan his reign over the kingdoms of the earth at the 7th trumpet way back at the midpoint of the week.

 

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (They are still on their way to the marriage but God is already reigning! See vs. 6 above!) Dreamland; changing the word of God to fit your theory; how could they have the supper before the wedding? The would not! Both the wedding and supper will be  in heaven and you will miss it. When John writes, "has come"  that means it is here NOW.  I know it is a Greek aorist verb, "not inflected to show tense" but we get the tense from the context. You will miss the wedding.

 

Malachi 4:1-6

1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

 

Most commentators don't know where to put this. Many teachers say it will be after the 1000 years. I think it will be during the 70th week.

 

Thanks for the Greek lesson. In Greek, THE does not mean the! But you will still miss the wedding.

 

Lamad

[Guest LoyalGypsy]

Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Greetings

 

the sign of the Son of man is when the sun sets in the morning

 

In other words when the rapture occurs is when they see Jesus fully risen "in the morning" Ex 33:20

 

The Sign of the Son of man; is that the day then reiterates backwards into the last part of the evening to the first part of the evening all the way back to the end of the day before

Because The Sign of the Son of man was given at the time of Jesus resurrection, the condemned are then condemned, because when it reaches that point in time, when they see Jesus FULLY risen, there no longer remains that sacrifice for sin.

 

Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.

 

 

Its defining what occurs at the rapture,

the SC is as the day is still reiterating backwards after the condemnation =past Jesus resurrection; the day is still reiterating backwards as to when Jesus arrived at that same time in the Gospel,

 

He arrives in the SC as having power and "great glory"= (means he has just put down His enemies at the condemnation!)

Therefore,

He arrives in the SC as having power and "great glory" and as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and not to be baptized of John as in the beginning, because there is darkness "no more

 

LG

Edited July 10, 2013 by LoyalGypsy

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

 

 

 

Talking with some believers, it seems to me that they want to go through the Tribulation as a means to somehow prove themselves worthy to God.

To answer the OP question, both.

 

Hi Omegaman,

If this is both, the rapture and the second coming, there doesn't appear to be any time for the marriage supper of the lamb to occur, for those who are ready when He appears. And there doesn't appear to be any time for the martyr's to reject the mark of the beast and be killed. This is important, since they will be returning with Christ to reign for 1000 years as well. Then finally, who are the sheep that are separated from the goats when He comes at the end of chapter 25? How would you account for these events?

 

 

Have you even considered that both the marriage supper of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ are at the BEGINNING of the Millennium instead of during the seven years?

 

Consider Yeshua`s words at the Last Supper, His Last Pesach Seder (Passover Feast) with His students:

 

Matthew 26:27-29

 

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

    

Luke 22:17-18

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

 

And yet, as we learn from the marriage at Cana, our Master's first miracle, wine is an INTEGRAL part of the Jewish marriage supper! And, the Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, is NOT in "heaven" but is rather right here on this earth after the Messiah returns!

 

Then, in answer to your questions about Matthew 25, the "sheep" are those nations who treated His people well, and His people are both the Isra'elites (His natural Family) and the believers grafted into the Olive Tree against nature (His adopted Family). The "goats" are those nations who mistreated and abused His people! This is a WAR TRIBUNAL and it occurs AFTER the battle at Har-Megiddown, or as it is known today, "Tel Megiddo," the tel that overlooks the Yizra`'el (Jezreel) Valley east and south of Haifa, Isra'el, and Mount Karmel. All the nations who came to fight in the multi-nation confrontation must answer at that time to the new Melekh Yisra'el (the new King of Isra'el). Neither the "sheep" nations nor the "goat" nations are God's people! They are the ones who are judged for HOW they treated God's people!

 

I think we MUST follow what John wrote and allow his writing to form our beliefs. John clearly shows the wedding and supper IN HEAVEN before He gets on the white horse. Therefore I am conviced it will happen just as he wrote it. I might add, there are several who have been in heaven and seen the tables all ready, stretching out as far as the eyes can see - and came back to tell and write what they saw.

 

If we believe in John's chronology, a post trib rapture will not work! They will miss the wedding and supper.

 

Next, if the rapture took place at the time of Jesus on the white horse, where would there be any sheep for the judgment of the nations? The righteous people would all have bodies as angels. Again, a posttrib rapture will not work.

 

Lamad

 

 

Not so, bro'. If you want to strictly follow the timing of the Revelation, you must also adhere to the time when the Kingdom is given to the Messiah! This occurred in Rev. 11:15-19:

 

    

Revelation 11:15-19

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH), and of his Christ (Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come (a reference to Psalm 2:1-12), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

KJV

 

Psalm 2:1-12

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed (Hebrew: Mashiyach), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord  with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

KJV (quotation marks added; words of the kings in blue; words of the Messiah in red; words of God the Father in purple)

 

This occurs ON THE EARTH! Some say that the first time the Messiah is seen on the earth is in Revelation 19:11-21, but that is just when He comes WITH HIS ARMY already raised from the dead, well equipped with horses and battle equipment, trained and ready to fight against the enemies of Isra'el. Consider the following verse:

 

Revelation 14:1

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (Hebrew: har Tsiown = the "holy hill of Zion"), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

KJV

 

and

 

Revelation 19:11-21

11 And I saw heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) opened (Greek: eeneoogmenon from anoigoo, the same word used in Revelation 11:19 and Matthew 3:16), and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven (Greek: ouranos = the sky) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: (another reference to Psalm 2:1-12) and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

KJV

 

These last verses 17 through 21 refer specifically to the aftermath of the battle at Har-Megiddown (Armageddon), the watchtower overlooking the valley of Yizre`'el (Jezreel), east and southeast of Haifa, Isra'el.

 

    

Joel 3:9-17

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat ("YHWH will judge"): for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

KJV

 

and the resurrection has already occurred by this time!

 

    

Zechariah 12:7-14

7 The Lord  also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

KJV

 

It's simply that a bad understanding of "heaven" has given rise to all sorts of untenable interpretations of Revelation.

 

Matthew 5:12

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

Matthew 5:16

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

Matthew 5:34

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

 

Matthew 5:45

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

Matthew 5:48

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

Matthew 6:9

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

 

Acts 3:21

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

Acts 7:55

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

There are many more, but what is the point? OF COUSE heaven is also where GOD IS. The same Greek word is used for BOTH.  It is where many Jews (Hebrews) will be when Jesus descends and sends His angels to gather His "elect" from BOTH HEAVEN and earth.

 

WHY is he gathering them? Your guess won't work here, because you have guessed incorrectly that it is Paul's rapture, which it is not. Perhaps it is the gathering for the judgement of the nations. It seems very likely that God will have all His "brethren" there.

 

As for the "beginning of the Millennium," that is not where  you are guessing it is. The exact point between the old millennium and the new is the 7th trumpet that also divides the 70th week. So the last half of the week is in the NEW Mellennium.

 

OF COURSE HE saw heaven opened - he has been IN heaven for this vision. Jesus has just ended the marriage and supper which took place IN HEAVEN - the same heaven where God's throne is - and is then seen descending down to earth on the white horse. There is no need to rearrange any of this to fit pet theories; leave it exactly as it is written and you will stay out of trouble with your doctrine. The wedding is in heaven. The pretrib rapture takes people to heaven FOR the wedding. The supper is in heaven. AFTER the wedding and supper, THEN  Jesus descends to earth and all the heavenly armies with Him, for the battle of Armageddon. After that, the judgment of the nations.

Of course, by the battle of Armageddon, the resurrection of the dead in Christ will have happened, for John saw that in Rev. 7. The resurrection of the OLD Testament saints will have happened for that happened at the 7th vial. So over course, the only resurrection left to happen is the second resurrection for the lost.

 

It is much wiser to form doctrine as much as possible from the New Testament rather than the Old for it is a more full and complete revelation. Some times in the old, there is a 2000 year difference in time and events IN the SAME verse. Revelation is not written like that. It is very chronological. When Revelation shows the marriage in heaven before Jesus gets onto His white horse, we can KNOW that is the order it will happen.

 

Lamad
 

 

 

Well, let me give you a few verses, too:

 

 

    

Matthew 16:1-4

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

KJV

 

In all four of the highlighted words above, the root Greek word used is "ouranos." How would the Greeks who read this passage have distinguished between the word "ouranos" in verse 1 and the words "ouranos" in verses 2 and 3? The answer is, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE!

 

The word "ouranos" is the root word that is used in EVERY VERSE you quoted above!!! Yet, there are FOUR other Greek words that were translated "heaven," "heavens," "sky," "air," or "heavenly."

 

Let's look quickly at the Greek of each of the seven verses you quoted:

 

Matthew 5:12 - ... en tois ouranois, literally "in the skies"

Matthew 5:16 - ... en tois ouranois, literally "in the skies"

Matthew 5:34 - ... en too ouranoo, literally "in the sky"

Matthew 5:45 - ... en ouranois, literally "in skies"

Matthew 6:9 - ... en tois ouranois, literally "in the skies"

Acts 3:21 - ... hon dei ouranon men dexasthai, literally "whom must [the] sky indeed receive" or "whom [the] sky must indeed receive"

Acts 7:55 - ... eis ton ouranon, literally "into the sky"

 

and I'll throw one in for good measure...

 

Acts 7:56 - ... idou theooroo tous ouranous dieenoigmenous, literally "Look! I see the skies thoroughly opened!"

 

And, in keeping with this verse, let's add three more passages:

 

            

Matthew 3:16-17

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him (Greek: eeneoochtheesan autoo hoi ouranoi = were-opened to-Him the skies), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven (Greek: foonee ek toon ouranoon = a-voice out-of the skies), saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

KJV

    

Acts 1:9-11

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up (Greek: kai hoos atenizontes eesan eis ton ouranon poreuomenou autou = and while gazing-intently they-were into the sky as-went-up he), behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (Greek: esteekate emblepontes eis ton ouranon = why stand ye-gazing-up into the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (Greek: ho analeemftheis af' humoon eis ton ouranon = which is-taken-up away-from you into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (Greek: etheasasthe auton poreuomenon eis ton ouranon = ye-have-seen Him depart into the sky).

KJV

    

Acts 9:3-6

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven (Greek: exaifnees te auton perieestrapsen foos ek tou ouranou = suddenly also to-him there-shined-around-him a-light out-of the sky):

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

KJV

 

ALL of this is from the Greek NEW TESTAMENT!, since that's important to you. Actually, however, one should be learning from BOTH "Testaments!" While it is true that the New Testament explains the Old Testament, the Old Testament gives the background for the New Testament! Without the Old Testament, one CANNOT understand the New Testament any better than the Old Testament could be understood without the New!

 

Now, let's talk theology: Do you believe in the omnipresence of God? I certainly do; it's one of the basic tenets of theology proper. So, the question is "Where is God NOT?!" "Heaven is NOT where God is!" Heaven (or rather the sky) is just one place of MANY where God is! There are MANY more places where God is!

 

 

Psalm 139:7-12

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

KJV

 

1 Kings 8:22-29

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven:

23 And he said, Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.

25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.

26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:

29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.

KJV

 

2 Chronicles 2:3-6

3 And Solomon sent to Huram the king of Tyre, saying, As thou didst deal with David my father, and didst send him cedars to build him an house to dwell therein, even so deal with me.

4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the Lord my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the Lord our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.

6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

KJV

 

2 Chronicles 6:13-18

13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven,

14 And said, O Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts:

15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.

16 Now therefore, O Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.

17 Now then, O Lord God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.

18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

KJV

 

Nehemiah 9:1-6

1 Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackclothes, and earth upon them.

2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.

3 And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of the Lord their God one fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped the Lord their God.

4 Then stood up upon the stairs, of the Levites, Jeshua, and Bani, Kadmiel, Shebaniah, Bunni, Sherebiah, Bani, and Chenani, and cried with a loud voice unto the Lord their God.

5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the Lord your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.

6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

KJV

 

So, the heaven (Hebrew: shaamayim = skies) and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = and the sky of the skies or outer space) cannot contain Him; so, where is this abode of God you are talking about? It DOESN'T EXIST! The closest thing to it is the New Jerusalem which is currently "under construction" in space.

 

WHERE is GOD?

 

John 14

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Isaiah 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

 

So WHERE is God? Father God is always seen sitten on the throne. WHERE is the throne? It is on the temple. WHERE is this temple? It is in heaven. Ibelieve Heaven is a planet. But it is in the realm of the spirit - a different dimention than we live in. There are many who have gone there. When Jessie Duplantis went, he said it was like a cable car, only no cable. His angel got him and then went at tremendous speed through space in this 'cable" car. they left earth, they left our solar system. They approached a planet that from a distance looked very much like earth. It had mountains. Several others who have seen the heavenly planet also tell us there are mountains.

 

All who have been to the temple to see the throne say it is very "high and lifted up" where one can see it from a long distance.

 

There are mansions there. He said He was going to prepare a place for us. Here is a story of someone who saw her own mansion:

 

"

The golden streets amazed me, and I felt so happy as we walked along this place the Lord has prepared for His own. The street looked slippery because it was so shiny, but felt normal underfoot. Because of its brightness, it resembled an indoor ice-skating rink. Sunlight, it seemed, was shooting through the whole place.
...
We walked past many mansions and castles, each more exquisite than the last. In front of one of these dwellings, the Lord stopped emphatically. I knew He was going to take me inside, and I was excited beyond all measure. My heart kept skipping beats as we walked up the front steps.

My eyes were drawn to the doorknob, which was made of gold. Then I saw a gold plate on the front door. It had a name inscribed on it, and I realized quickly that it was my name. I almost fainted with surprise....

This was the place Jesus had prepared for me! I was amazed. It was too good to be true. Here I was, standing at the door of a regal palace in heaven, and my name was inscribed in gold on its beautiful door! It was too much to take in! My head reeled in astonishment. How could these things be?

I cried tears of gratitude and joy as my heart overflowed with love and adoration for the Lord. I had never really anticipated such wonderful things from Him. I had always felt that if He simply noticed me it would be OK, but now He literally was showering His blessings on me!
I had tasted the living water, and I knew I would never thirst again. I had tasted the purple fruit of paradise, and I could never hunger for the things of the world again.
I had been with Jesus--my Lord and Master--and He had taken me to the mansion He had made for me. I wept openly as the Lord led me into the house. He said: “Do not cry, My daughter. I want you to be happy.”

As we stepped across the threshold of the mansion, spiritual songs welled up from my heart, and I continued to cry tears of joy and gratitude. I was awestruck by the sparkling stone walls that lined the corridor of my mansion. I loved the red-and-cream-colored carpet with its round patterns. The red velvet chairs--so classic and sophisticated--were like the ones I had always wanted in my home. The red draperies were the finest I’d ever seen.
The Lord took His seat on one of the velvet chairs as I walked up the majestic stairway, savoring every single moment in my mansion. The bedroom was carpeted in pure white, and I noticed that the headboard of the bed was silver with blue stones embedded decoratively along its border.
The mirror on the dresser also had blue stones highlighting its brightness. The bathroom had a silver bathtub that was decorated with precious jewels of every color.
I sang as I walked around the interior of my mansion. I felt like a princess in fairyland. But I knew this was no fantasy--it was more real than I had ever imagined. I had always believed in a heavenly paradise, but I had never been absolutely sure of its existence. Now I knew, beyond all doubt, that heaven is real, and I wanted everyone in the world to know it, too.
After several moments of wonderful joy, I walked down the stairs to where the Lord was sitting. He stood up and asked, “Are you happy, Choo Nam?”
I knew the Lord was happy about showing me my mansion.

Many others have seen their own mansion. This is only one testimony out of many. Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us. I believe Him.

 

Here is a testimony about the throne of God:

 

Beyond all my power of description are the splendors of the throne itself.  As we approached nearer the center of the great city and to the region of the Father’s throne, mighty waves of light and glory came constantly rolling over us, and with them came such refreshing baths of love, peace and joy, that our gladness was indescribable, having reached a degree of perfection never known before.  The noiseless chariots were moving in all directions.  Countless throngs of happy spirits, clothed in the purest garments and the expression of every face being that of the serenest peace and composure of soul were moving toward and from the throne.

The vastness of the various compartments of the throne is beyond all earthly comparison.  For many furlongs it was spread out in all directions before us.  Bohemond came close to my side and said in a low voice: "Whoever could have thought of such glory!" Light, all filled with glory, heightened beyond all human conception of earthly things revealed the splendors of the throne beyond the powers of a man to describe, so that I kept thinking of the word which I had so long heard: "That God is light and in Him is no darkness at all"

Enoch now led us to the throne itself.  It was encircled by wonderful majestic bands of light with all the colors of the rainbow, which signified the attributes of the Almighty God and Father of us all.  We seemed now to comprehend God as we never had before.  I thought of the band of light that encircles the planet Saturn, the gold tinged clouds of an earthly sunset; but no comparison could describe its glory.  Beneath the circle of this rainbow was the seat of the Almighty Father.  For beauty, grandeur, glory and majesty, it cannot be described.  It was simply upholstered glory, with all the colors of the rainbow tinging everything.

I looked again, to scan the throne once more, and saw twenty-four seats of most exquisite beauty on both sides of the throne.  I knew from the blessed word these were for the elders; but they were mostly vacant now, for the elders, I had found, are very busily engaged in service for Him who is on this throne; yes, the throne of the universe.

 

For thirty furlongs or more distant from our great Father’s seat was the outer circle of the mighty throng gathered beneath the great arched canopy of this imperial throne.  The four angels now returned and flying in the midst of the throne, were sounding through their trumpets, saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty; which was, and which is, and which is to come."

 

I looked again and an elder whom I had met, beckoned me with his hand to his side.  I quickly obeyed and bounded up to the great gallery where the elders sat, and he said: "Look again at the great concourse beyond," and I saw indeed the great multitude which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, having palms in their hands, and they cried and shouted with one great voice, saying: "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne and unto the Lamb," and all the angels fell on their faces and worshipped God and said "Amen."  From the book, Paradise, the Holy City  and the Glory of the Throne

 

Another book, the author said the pillars that hold up the roof of the temply must have been 30 feet in diameter and a thousand feet tall.

 

What then, did GOD say about it?

 

Rev 21

¹² And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

¹³ On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

¹⁴ And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

¹⁵ And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

¹⁶ And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

 

Almost all who have been there talk about these gates. they are HUGE, they are beautiful. Jessie saw Peter. Paul, James and John in that order on the foundation, before the angel pulled him through the gate.

 

Every book I have read about people who have gone, say similar things; they speak of the great peace, the bright light, the marvelous flowers, and indeed the greatest, the throme room of heaven. A  little girl of 4 1/2 went, and described those four beasts with eyes all around. She was very afraid of them at first, but she got used to them. She described them just as the bible does. She even sat on Jesus lap on the throne. She drew a crude picture of God's throne.

 

My point is, heaven is a very real place. there is a city there, the New Jerusalem. In that city is God's throne. On the throne sits our Heavenly father. Jesus is at His right hand.

 

lamad

 

 

There are physiological reasons why people who have "near-death" experiences see bright light, experience great peace and have hallucinations. That doesn't prove that they have actually gone to "Heaven" and back! To the contrary, my Bible teaches me that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die and after this the judgment!" (Heb. 9:27.) They are frankly NOT a good source for what Heaven is like!

 

Whether hallucination or a great fiction writer, it doesn't take much creativity to "borrow" from the Scriptures some descriptions and treat them as one's own words! In point of fact, it's plagiarism! If ANY of all that is true, all they did was to visit the New Jerusalem!

 

Revelation 21:12-16, which you quoted above, is part of the description of the New Jerusalem, not "Heaven," which actually extends from 21:1 through 22:5. It's not some ethereal, nebulous, Never-Never Land! It's a REAL, CONCRETE CITY WITH SUBSTANCE, MASS, AND DIMENSIONS! Also, the New Jerusalem is on its way HERE to THIS planet Earth!

 

Furthermore, Peter gives a great explanation for the New Heaven (the New Sky), Paul's Third Heaven, and New Earth:

 

 

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water (the Flood), perished:

7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire (the Fire) against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

 

The first heaven and earth was before the Flood of Noach's day, from Adam to Noach.

The second heaven and earth was from the Flood to the present and will continue until the Fire that Peter talks about here in verses 7-12.

The third heaven and earth will be from the Fire onward into eternity.

 

Just as our second heaven and earth were formed out of the remains of the first heaven and earth before the Flood, so the third heaven and earth will be formed out of the remains of this current second heaven and earth after the Fire.

 

The whole earth doesn't need to be destroyed for the sake of the seven miles of the earth's crust that man has touched. Furthermore, "earth" (Hebrew: erets; Greek: gee) is purely talking about the "land," and specifically the "ground" upon which humans walk, just as the "heavens" is purely talking about the "skies" above our heads, primarily the atmosphere that we breathe and in which the birds fly. Just as the Flood destroyed every breathing thing off the "face of the earth" or the "surface of the ground," so the Fire will just destroy all of men's works, purging the earth and readying it for its role as the third heavens and earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

 

You don't need to travel to some "distant planet called 'Heaven'"; the New Jerusalem will descend HERE, but the "here" of the future, after the Earth is purged in the Fire. Why do you think that the New Jerusalem is named such? Couldn't it be because it will sit on the earth centered at the global coordinates where the OLD Jerusalem sat? If not, then why does it have to carry the name, "Jerusalem?" Why wouldn't it be called something else?

 

There are certain passages of Scripture that you would do well to incorporate into your theory:

       

 

Psalm 125:1

1 They that trust in the Lord  shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

KJV

    

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

    

Psalm 89:3-4

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

KJV

    

Psalm 89:34-37

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

 

It's NOT a good idea AT ALL to focus on the New Testament to the exclusion of the Old! We twist what the Scriptures are saying without that information, too!

 

The SURFACE of the earth will be destroyed, but not the whole planet! It will abide forever! So, why does anyone have to travel to a distant planet? Our Earth is RIGHT HERE, and it will survive by God's power. The Earth was made for mankind, and mankind was designed for the Earth. Sure human beings have made a mess of this Earth in many ways, but God will NOT let haSatan win in ANY respect! He will NOT lose the earth that He once declared "very good" to sin and destruction! Rather, He will clean it up and make it once again as Gan-`Eden, the Garden of Eden. Notice all the similarities: The Tree of Life is present; The River of the Water of Life parts into four different compass directions, similar to the river that was divided into four heads; there is no more curse; there is no more death! I have a pastor friend who once gave the following outline for the whole Bible: (I don't know if it is his original work.)

 

I. What ought to be - Genesis 1, 2

II. What is - Genesis 3

III. How to get from What is to What ought to be - Genesis 4 through Revelation 22.

 

See it big, keep it simple, and above all, STICK TO THE SCRIPTURES!

[Guest]

 

I have yet to have a post-tribber explain HOW they will get to the marriage supper. One told me the supper would be on the earth..........WRONG! Anyone got any ideas?  lamad

I seldom deal with questions like this, becuase I freely admit that I am intimidated by the symbolism and visions of Revelation. I beleive the timeline is sorted out without having to consult the book of Revelation.

However, breaking my tradition, I am looking at Rev 19.

There it appears, that the tribulation has transpired and the judgement of God on the world has begun:

  “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.” 3And a second time they said, “Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.”

Then it talks about the Marriage of the Lamb:

    7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

 

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

      17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

      19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

 

Then it goes on to describe what appears to be the coming of Christ.

So there,  might we be seeing a sequence like this:

Tribulation - God's Judgement - rapture - marriage - return of Christ with His bride

 

I guess I do not understand the question:

 

"HOW they will get to the marriage supper?"

 

Is there some reason why they cannot go in a rapture after the trib, and before His return? Or is there something that firmly establishes the supper as during the trib or before? 

[George]

Does this sound like the marriage supper?

 

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines. 7 On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; 8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken. 9 In that day they will say, "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation."

[Guest]

and now for the trick question George, what about the OP?