Matthew 24:29-31, is this the rapture or second coming or both?

[Guest]

1.At the rapture,believers meet the Lord in the air 1Thessalonians 4:17.

At the second coming,believers return with the Lord to the Earth Revelation 19:14. . . . .  snip

 

1.At the rapture,believers meet the Lord in the air 1Thessalonians 4:17.

True, whether or not it is before or after the tribulation.

At the second coming,believers return with the Lord to the Earth Revelation 19:14.

2.The second coming occurs after the Great and terrible tribulation(Revelation chapter 6-19).

 

Agreed

 

The rapture occurs before the tribulation 1Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation3;10.

 

Too bad neither those verses say that, nice assertions though!

 

3.The rapture is the removal of the believers from Earth as an act of deliverance 1Thessalonians 4:13-17;5:9.

 

Those verses also say nothing of the kind, this is shameful liberties with the text.

 

The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment Mathew 24;40-41.

 

I tend to agree, and this can happens at the same coming as the rapture, as implied several times in Matt 25. Nothing in Matt 24, excludes the possibility of both a rapture and a weeding out of the unsaved.

4.The rapture will be secret and instant 1Corinthians 15:50-54.

 

I see the instant part, where is the secret part?

 

The second coming will be visible to all Revelation 1:7;Mathew 24:29-30.

 

Agreed

 

5.The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place 2Thessalonians 2:4;Mathew 24:15-20;Revelation chapters 6-18.

 

Agreed

 

The rapture is imminent;it could take place at any moment Titus 2:13;1Thessalonians 4:13-18;1Corinthians 15:50-54.

Seriously bopeep? Is this copied from some website list or something? I have to wonder if you even read the verses, none of them say anything about imminence.

[Guest]

Describe what you believe the following passage is, the rapture, second coming or both, and why you believe it.

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

~

 

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

 

~

 

Does this sound like the marriage supper?

 

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines. 7 On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; 8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken. 9 In that day they will say, "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation."

 

~

 

Amen~!

 

On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines.  Isaiah 25:6

 

~

 

and now for the trick question George, what about the OP?

 

 

~

 

Amen~!

 

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

 

And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

 

And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. Revelation 19:1-9

[Montana Marv]

Does this sound like the marriage supper?

 

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines. 7 On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; 8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken. 9 In that day they will say, "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation."

 

George

 

This is post mill.  He will swallow up death forever.  There is still death after the Mill when Satan is released.  Rev 20 9 -They surrounded the camp of God's people.... but fire came down from heaven and devoured them.  Rev 21:4 - He will wipe every tear from their eyes.  There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. v5 ... I am making everything new...

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

There are physiological reasons why people who have "near-death" experiences see bright light, experience great peace and have hallucinations. That doesn't prove that they have actually gone to "Heaven" and back! To the contrary, my Bible teaches me that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die and after this the judgment!" (Heb. 9:27.) They are frankly NOT a good source for what Heaven is like!

 

Whether hallucination or a great fiction writer, it doesn't take much creativity to "borrow" from the Scriptures some descriptions and treat them as one's own words! In point of fact, it's plagiarism! If ANY of all that is true, all they did was to visit the New Jerusalem!

 

Revelation 21:12-16, which you quoted above, is part of the description of the New Jerusalem, not "Heaven," which actually extends from 21:1 through 22:5. It's not some ethereal, nebulous, Never-Never Land! It's a REAL, CONCRETE CITY WITH SUBSTANCE, MASS, AND DIMENSIONS! Also, the New Jerusalem is on its way HERE to THIS planet Earth!

 

Furthermore, Peter gives a great explanation for the New Heaven (the New Sky), Paul's Third Heaven, and New Earth:

 

 

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water (the Flood), perished:

7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire (the Fire) against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

 

The first heaven and earth was before the Flood of Noach's day, from Adam to Noach.

The second heaven and earth was from the Flood to the present and will continue until the Fire that Peter talks about here in verses 7-12.

The third heaven and earth will be from the Fire onward into eternity.

 

Just as our second heaven and earth were formed out of the remains of the first heaven and earth before the Flood, so the third heaven and earth will be formed out of the remains of this current second heaven and earth after the Fire.

 

The whole earth doesn't need to be destroyed for the sake of the seven miles of the earth's crust that man has touched. Furthermore, "earth" (Hebrew: erets; Greek: gee) is purely talking about the "land," and specifically the "ground" upon which humans walk, just as the "heavens" is purely talking about the "skies" above our heads, primarily the atmosphere that we breathe and in which the birds fly. Just as the Flood destroyed every breathing thing off the "face of the earth" or the "surface of the ground," so the Fire will just destroy all of men's works, purging the earth and readying it for its role as the third heavens and earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

 

You don't need to travel to some "distant planet called 'Heaven'"; the New Jerusalem will descend HERE, but the "here" of the future, after the Earth is purged in the Fire. Why do you think that the New Jerusalem is named such? Couldn't it be because it will sit on the earth centered at the global coordinates where the OLD Jerusalem sat? If not, then why does it have to carry the name, "Jerusalem?" Why wouldn't it be called something else?

 

There are certain passages of Scripture that you would do well to incorporate into your theory:

       

 

Psalm 125:1

1 They that trust in the Lord  shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

KJV

    

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

    

Psalm 89:3-4

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

KJV

    

Psalm 89:34-37

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

 

It's NOT a good idea AT ALL to focus on the New Testament to the exclusion of the Old! We twist what the Scriptures are saying without that information, too!

 

The SURFACE of the earth will be destroyed, but not the whole planet! It will abide forever! So, why does anyone have to travel to a distant planet? Our Earth is RIGHT HERE, and it will survive by God's power. The Earth was made for mankind, and mankind was designed for the Earth. Sure human beings have made a mess of this Earth in many ways, but God will NOT let haSatan win in ANY respect! He will NOT lose the earth that He once declared "very good" to sin and destruction! Rather, He will clean it up and make it once again as Gan-`Eden, the Garden of Eden. Notice all the similarities: The Tree of Life is present; The River of the Water of Life parts into four different compass directions, similar to the river that was divided into four heads; there is no more curse; there is no more death! I have a pastor friend who once gave the following outline for the whole Bible: (I don't know if it is his original work.)

 

I. What ought to be - Genesis 1, 2

II. What is - Genesis 3

III. How to get from What is to What ought to be - Genesis 4 through Revelation 22.

 

See it big, keep it simple, and above all, STICK TO THE SCRIPTURES!

The New Jerusalem that will be here is still in the 3rd heaven where God's throne is. It will remain there for some time yet. And whether or not you believe it, people have seen it and seen heaven. They describe it exactly as the bible does. They talk of walking on gold.

 

Actually, there is PROOF that some have gone. A 4 1/2 year old girl that went to heaven, visited people she did not even know existed - her relatives. She came back with nick names of them! She recogized them in photos later. She met someone who had been aborted - a secret abortion that no one knew about. But She did, because she met him in heaven, and when she returned, the secret was out.  She came back with stories of some other kids who had been killed: one was shot by his father. She knew all a out him and had a message to give to his mother. Another child was killed in a mysterous car crash. She knew WHY the car crashed, she knew the color of the car.   Another boy, she knew EXACTLY where the grave stone was, and they found it. The found old newspapers and varified her stories.

 

But, if you don't believe, no amount of proof will change  your mind. Perhaps, maybe - it could be possible - that you will believe in heaven when you get there. But, perhaps you will think you had a dream!

 

sololmon did not know what he was talking about: John tells us there will be a NEW HEAVEN and NEW earth, for the old will disappear and never been found.

 

By the way, WHERE did Jesus go? We have a dozen verses telling us He went to be at the right hand of the Father - - so WHERE is this place?  Do you remember, He also went to build many mansions - places for us to LIVE when He takes us there? So just where IS this place of many mansions? Again, many people that have gone to heaven have SEEN these mansions and even their OWN mansion.

 

There is a mount Zion in heaven. Of course it will last forever.

 

Rev 21

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

 

Lamad

Edited July 26, 2013 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

 

1.At the rapture,believers meet the Lord in the air 1Thessalonians 4:17.

At the second coming,believers return with the Lord to the Earth Revelation 19:14. . . . .  snip

 

1.At the rapture,believers meet the Lord in the air 1Thessalonians 4:17.

True, whether or not it is before or after the tribulation.

At the second coming,believers return with the Lord to the Earth Revelation 19:14.

2.The second coming occurs after the Great and terrible tribulation(Revelation chapter 6-19).

 

Agreed

 

The rapture occurs before the tribulation 1Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation3;10.

 

Too bad neither those verses say that, nice assertions though!

 

3.The rapture is the removal of the believers from Earth as an act of deliverance 1Thessalonians 4:13-17;5:9.

 

Those verses also say nothing of the kind, this is shameful liberties with the text.

 

The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment Mathew 24;40-41.

 

I tend to agree, and this can happens at the same coming as the rapture, as implied several times in Matt 25. Nothing in Matt 24, excludes the possibility of both a rapture and a weeding out of the unsaved.

4.The rapture will be secret and instant 1Corinthians 15:50-54.

 

I see the instant part, where is the secret part?

 

The second coming will be visible to all Revelation 1:7;Mathew 24:29-30.

 

Agreed

 

5.The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place 2Thessalonians 2:4;Mathew 24:15-20;Revelation chapters 6-18.

 

Agreed

 

The rapture is imminent;it could take place at any moment Titus 2:13;1Thessalonians 4:13-18;1Corinthians 15:50-54.

Seriously bopeep? Is this copied from some website list or something? I have to wonder if you even read the verses, none of them say anything about imminence.

 

Secret?  Did you never read?

 

Acts 1

⁹ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

 

Please note, He became INVISIBLE in the cloud. They could no longer SEE HIM.

 

1 Thes 4

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Here again He comes, but ONLY to a cloud. He will be invisible to those on the earth.

 

By the way: WHEN is Paul's time of "peace and safety?"

 

Lamad

Edited July 26, 2013 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

 

Does this sound like the marriage supper?

 

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines. 7 On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; 8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has spoken. 9 In that day they will say, "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation."

 

George

 

This is post mill.  He will swallow up death forever.  There is still death after the Mill when Satan is released.  Rev 20 9 -They surrounded the camp of God's people.... but fire came down from heaven and devoured them.  Rev 21:4 - He will wipe every tear from their eyes.  There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. v5 ... I am making everything new...

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Actually, just the statement: He will swollow up death forever, IS TRUE for some, but not for all. For the Bride of Christ, it is true.

Therefore I think this COULD BE speaking of the marriage supper. He did NOT say He would swallow up ALL death.

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

 

 

I have yet to have a post-tribber explain HOW they will get to the marriage supper. One told me the supper would be on the earth..........WRONG! Anyone got any ideas?  lamad

I seldom deal with questions like this, becuase I freely admit that I am intimidated by the symbolism and visions of Revelation. I beleive the timeline is sorted out without having to consult the book of Revelation.

However, breaking my tradition, I am looking at Rev 19.

There it appears, that the tribulation has transpired and the judgement of God on the world has begun:

  “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.” 3And a second time they said, “Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.”

Then it talks about the Marriage of the Lamb:

    7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

 

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

      17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

      19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

 

Then it goes on to describe what appears to be the coming of Christ.

So there,  might we be seeing a sequence like this:

Tribulation - God's Judgement - rapture - marriage - return of Christ with His bride

 

I guess I do not understand the question:

 

"HOW they will get to the marriage supper?"

 

Is there some reason why they cannot go in a rapture after the trib, and before His return? Or is there something that firmly establishes the supper as during the trib or before? 

 

 

 

 

I have yet to have a post-tribber explain HOW they will get to the marriage supper. One told me the supper would be on the earth..........WRONG! Anyone got any ideas?  lamad

I seldom deal with questions like this, becuase I freely admit that I am intimidated by the symbolism and visions of Revelation. I beleive the timeline is sorted out without having to consult the book of Revelation.

However, breaking my tradition, I am looking at Rev 19.

There it appears, that the tribulation has transpired and the judgement of God on the world has begun:

  “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.” 3And a second time they said, “Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.”

Then it talks about the Marriage of the Lamb:

    7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

 

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

      17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

      19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

 

Then it goes on to describe what appears to be the coming of Christ.

So there,  might we be seeing a sequence like this:

Tribulation - God's Judgement - rapture - marriage - return of Christ with His bride

 

I guess I do not understand the question:

 

"HOW they will get to the marriage supper?"

 

Is there some reason why they cannot go in a rapture after the trib, and before His return? Or is there something that firmly establishes the supper as during the trib or before? 

 

 

It is very simple: MANY seem to believe the rapture will at AT HIs coming, because they believe that the Matt. 24 gathering is the rapture. So if they are caught up as He is descending, it is AFTER the marriage and AFTER the supper. It is clear, posttribbers must MISS the wedding and supper.

 

ALL who believe the Matt, 24 gathering is the rapture of the church, will miss the wedding. Plain and simple.

 

Lamad

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Lamad.

 

 

There are physiological reasons why people who have "near-death" experiences see bright light, experience great peace and have hallucinations. That doesn't prove that they have actually gone to "Heaven" and back! To the contrary, my Bible teaches me that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die and after this the judgment!" (Heb. 9:27.) They are frankly NOT a good source for what Heaven is like!

 

Whether hallucination or a great fiction writer, it doesn't take much creativity to "borrow" from the Scriptures some descriptions and treat them as one's own words! In point of fact, it's plagiarism! If ANY of all that is true, all they did was to visit the New Jerusalem!

 

Revelation 21:12-16, which you quoted above, is part of the description of the New Jerusalem, not "Heaven," which actually extends from 21:1 through 22:5. It's not some ethereal, nebulous, Never-Never Land! It's a REAL, CONCRETE CITY WITH SUBSTANCE, MASS, AND DIMENSIONS! Also, the New Jerusalem is on its way HERE to THIS planet Earth!

 

Furthermore, Peter gives a great explanation for the New Heaven (the New Sky), Paul's Third Heaven, and New Earth:

 

 

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water (the Flood), perished:

7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire (the Fire) against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

 

The first heaven and earth was before the Flood of Noach's day, from Adam to Noach.

The second heaven and earth was from the Flood to the present and will continue until the Fire that Peter talks about here in verses 7-12.

The third heaven and earth will be from the Fire onward into eternity.

 

Just as our second heaven and earth were formed out of the remains of the first heaven and earth before the Flood, so the third heaven and earth will be formed out of the remains of this current second heaven and earth after the Fire.

 

The whole earth doesn't need to be destroyed for the sake of the seven miles of the earth's crust that man has touched. Furthermore, "earth" (Hebrew: erets; Greek: gee) is purely talking about the "land," and specifically the "ground" upon which humans walk, just as the "heavens" is purely talking about the "skies" above our heads, primarily the atmosphere that we breathe and in which the birds fly. Just as the Flood destroyed every breathing thing off the "face of the earth" or the "surface of the ground," so the Fire will just destroy all of men's works, purging the earth and readying it for its role as the third heavens and earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

 

You don't need to travel to some "distant planet called 'Heaven'"; the New Jerusalem will descend HERE, but the "here" of the future, after the Earth is purged in the Fire. Why do you think that the New Jerusalem is named such? Couldn't it be because it will sit on the earth centered at the global coordinates where the OLD Jerusalem sat? If not, then why does it have to carry the name, "Jerusalem?" Why wouldn't it be called something else?

 

There are certain passages of Scripture that you would do well to incorporate into your theory:

       

 

Psalm 125:1

1 They that trust in the Lord  shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

KJV

    

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

    

Psalm 89:3-4

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

KJV

    

Psalm 89:34-37

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

 

It's NOT a good idea AT ALL to focus on the New Testament to the exclusion of the Old! We twist what the Scriptures are saying without that information, too!

 

The SURFACE of the earth will be destroyed, but not the whole planet! It will abide forever! So, why does anyone have to travel to a distant planet? Our Earth is RIGHT HERE, and it will survive by God's power. The Earth was made for mankind, and mankind was designed for the Earth. Sure human beings have made a mess of this Earth in many ways, but God will NOT let haSatan win in ANY respect! He will NOT lose the earth that He once declared "very good" to sin and destruction! Rather, He will clean it up and make it once again as Gan-`Eden, the Garden of Eden. Notice all the similarities: The Tree of Life is present; The River of the Water of Life parts into four different compass directions, similar to the river that was divided into four heads; there is no more curse; there is no more death! I have a pastor friend who once gave the following outline for the whole Bible: (I don't know if it is his original work.)

 

I. What ought to be - Genesis 1, 2

II. What is - Genesis 3

III. How to get from What is to What ought to be - Genesis 4 through Revelation 22.

 

See it big, keep it simple, and above all, STICK TO THE SCRIPTURES!

The New Jerusalem that will be here is still in the 3rd heaven where God's throne is. It will remain there for some time yet. And whether or not you believe it, people have seen it and seen heaven. They describe it exactly as the bible does. They talk of walking on gold.

 

Actually, there is PROOF that some have gone. A 4 1/2 year old girl that went to heaven, visited people she did not even know existed - her relatives. She came back with nick names of them! She recogized them in photos later. She met someone who had been aborted - a secret abortion that no one knew about. But She did, because she met him in heaven, and when she returned, the secret was out.  She came back with stories of some other kids who had been killed: one was shot by his father. She knew all about him and had a message to give to his mother. Another child was killed in a mysterous car crash. She knew WHY the car crashed, she knew the color of the car.   Another boy, she knew EXACTLY where the grave stone was, and they found it. The found old newspapers and varified her stories.

 

But, if you don't believe, no amount of proof will change  your mind. Perhaps, maybe - it could be possible - that you will believe in heaven when you get there. But, perhaps you will think you had a dream!

 

sololmon did not know what he was talking about: John tells us there will be a NEW HEAVEN and NEW earth, for the old will disappear and never been found.

 

By the way, WHERE did Jesus go? We have a dozen verses telling us He went to be at the right hand of the Father - - so WHERE is this place?  Do you remember, He also went to build many mansions - places for us to LIVE when He takes us there? So just where IS this place of many mansions? Again, many people that have gone to heaven have SEEN these mansions and even their OWN mansion.

 

There is a mount Zion in heaven. Of course it will last forever.

 

Rev 21

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

 

Lamad

 

 

That all sounds good, but like they would say in the OT, I can say neither yea nor nay. I don't know. It may be very convincing to you, and if it weren't for the fact that there ARE such things as supernatural messengers = Greek: aggeloi = "angels," I might be convinced, as well.

 

However, I know that haSatan is the great deceiver and is a liar from the beginning. He is called the "diabolos," which means "one who 'throws through' another's reputation" or "a slanderer." The word "diabolos" is translated as the "devil." So, he makes it a point to be a liar, and he's probably the best! How easy would it be for him or one of his minions to have access to such information and put up a deception to throw people off from the truth? He does have spies everywhere (that they are allowed to go) whereby he could gain such information. A "secret abortion," for instance, sounds like something he would relish!

 

I don't know anything about this "4-1/2-year-old girl" whom you claim "proves" that Heaven exists. The truth is that, IF she gave descriptions that exactly matched the Scriptures, then she probably went to the New Jerusalem, because the descriptions, that most claim are those of "Heaven," are actually the descriptions of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22. Whether one would go and be sent back or not is doubtful and NOT something in which I would put a lot of faith. On the other hand, it is certainly not outside of God's power to do so. I'm just saying that it would be easy for haSatan to imitate and fabricate in order to deceive the masses.

 

I will stick to the certainly of God's Word. Remember Sha`uwl-Paul's words of warning:

 

 

Galatians 1:6-9

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

KJV

 

And, also those of Yochanan (John):

    

1 John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

KJV

 

I don't know if any such test was administered to this 4-1/2-year-old, but that is the ONLY test that Yochanan gave us! On the other hand, I know of MANY people who claim the name of Christ who couldn't pass that test! There are whole denominations who claim to be "Christian" who don't make such a confession!

 

In conclusion, all I'm saying is to be careful what sort of testimony you accept as truth, but for my part, I'll stick to the Scriptures. It's safer.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, Lamad.

 

I got to thinking ... I never gave you an answer about where Yeshua` (Jesus) went. It's not hard because He told us!

 

John 14:1-3

 

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

KJV

 

So, where is "His Father's house?" Well, the first thing we should do is be sure we understand what we are asking within that question. The Greek of this phrase is "en tee oikia tou patros mou" which translates exactly into "in the house of-the Father of-mine."

 

Now in Hebrews 11:9, we read this about Avraham (Abraham):

 

 

Hebrews 11:9

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

KJV

 

The Greek of the highlighted phrase is "en skeenais katoikeesas meta Isaak kai Iakoob," which translates word-for-word into "in tents he-permanently-resided with Yitschaq (Isaac) and Ya`aqov (Jacob)." Thus, Avraham's permanent residence in the Land was a Bedouin tent (skeenee, pronounced "SKAY-nay")!

 

I mention this verse because this is what is said in Revelation 21:3:

 

 

Revelation 21:2-3

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

KJV

 

The Greek of the portion highlighted above is "Idou, hee skeenee tou Theou meta toon anthroopoon, kai skeenoosei met' autoon," which translates word-for-word into English as "Look, the tent of-the God with the men, and he-shall-tent with them." This statement implies that the "tent of the God" is "the holy city, new Jerusalem" of verse 2.

 

Therefore, God's "skeenee" is the New Jerusalem! Thus, God's house, like Avraham's house, is a "tent" and He will permanently (eternally) reside with men! Mind you, it is a pretty big TENT! Using Greek "stadios" equivalent to the Latin "stadia," the plural of "stadium," consisting of about 660 feet each, 12,000 furlongs calculates to 1,500 miles!

 

12,000 stadios x (660 feet / 1 stadion) x (1 mile / 5280 feet) = 12,000 x 660 / 5280 miles = 1,500 miles

 

That's 1,500 miles long, 1,500 miles wide, and 1,500 miles HIGH!

 

Thus, Yeshua` went to the New Jerusalem to "prepare a place for you!" As long as there are men and women, boys and girls, being "born again," the New Jerusalem is still "under construction!"

 

Furthermore, Hebrews 12:22 calls the New Jerusalem "Ierusaleem epouranioo," "Jerusalem from-above-the-sky!" Thus, it is a city that is currently in outer space, but it descends "ek tou ouranou" or "out of-the sky" in Revelation 21:2, which means that, wherever in space it currently is, it is on its way here, and Yeshua` will arrive 1,000 years earlier to prepare for its arrival and the arrival of God's Throne:

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

 

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

 

That's where Yeshua` went.

[iamlamad]

Shalom, again, Lamad.

 

I got to thinking ... I never gave you an answer about where Yeshua` (Jesus) went. It's not hard because He told us!

 

John 14:1-3

 

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

KJV

 

So, where is "His Father's house?" Well, the first thing we should do is be sure we understand what we are asking within that question. The Greek of this phrase is "en tee oikia tou patros mou" which translates exactly into "in the house of-the Father of-mine."

 

Now in Hebrews 11:9, we read this about Avraham (Abraham):

 

 

Hebrews 11:9

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

KJV

 

The Greek of the highlighted phrase is "en skeenais katoikeesas meta Isaak kai Iakoob," which translates word-for-word into "in tents he-permanently-resided with Yitschaq (Isaac) and Ya`aqov (Jacob)." Thus, Avraham's permanent residence in the Land was a Bedouin tent (skeenee, pronounced "SKAY-nay")!

 

I mention this verse because this is what is said in Revelation 21:3:

 

 

Revelation 21:2-3

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

KJV

 

The Greek of the portion highlighted above is "Idou, hee skeenee tou Theou meta toon anthroopoon, kai skeenoosei met' autoon," which translates word-for-word into English as "Look, the tent of-the God with the men, and he-shall-tent with them." This statement implies that the "tent of the God" is "the holy city, new Jerusalem" of verse 2.

 

Therefore, God's "skeenee" is the New Jerusalem! Thus, God's house, like Avraham's house, is a "tent" and He will permanently (eternally) reside with men! Mind you, it is a pretty big TENT! Using Greek "stadios" equivalent to the Latin "stadia," the plural of "stadium," consisting of about 660 feet each, 12,000 furlongs calculates to 1,500 miles!

 

12,000 stadios x (660 feet / 1 stadion) x (1 mile / 5280 feet) = 12,000 x 660 / 5280 miles = 1,500 miles

 

That's 1,500 miles long, 1,500 miles wide, and 1,500 miles HIGH!

 

Thus, Yeshua` went to the New Jerusalem to "prepare a place for you!" As long as there are men and women, boys and girls, being "born again," the New Jerusalem is still "under construction!"

 

Furthermore, Hebrews 12:22 calls the New Jerusalem "Ierusaleem epouranioo," "Jerusalem from-above-the-sky!" Thus, it is a city that is currently in outer space, but it descends "ek tou ouranou" or "out of-the sky" in Revelation 21:2, which means that, wherever in space it currently is, it is on its way here, and Yeshua` will arrive 1,000 years earlier to prepare for its arrival and the arrival of God's Throne:

 

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

 

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

 

That's where Yeshua` went.

I agree with almost all of this. I would only add, the New Jerusalem is on a PLANET we call "heaven." It is a very real place. Many people have been blessed to visit it. Some go to the New Jerusalem, but some have been blessed to visit places far away from the Holy City.  It does seem that one day that Holy City will be transplanted to a New earth. 

 

Lamad