Everlasting Covenant

[GoldenEagle]

Okay hippias so the point of this thread was to... what again?

I'm a bit confused.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just chiming in about the stars. The stars are not "fixed" in the sky, or even relative to each other. The constellations that we see today look slightly different than when the OT was written, or even when Christ walked this earth.

That completey misses the point. The point is that the stars and other luminaries are still there. The order is fixed, despite some kind of minor variance over time. The point is that we can look up and still see the stars, the sun, the moon, etc. The overall order is fixed and the seasons come and go as they always have. Winter doesn't follow spring; Autumn doesnt follow Winter.

And because everything remains generally intact, since God is still preserving the universe, it is a model for His preservation of Israel. God is able to preserve Israel with the same dependability as He preserves the univese. If anythng, it is a testimony to the faithfulness of God to keep His word to His chosen people.

[Guest shiloh357]

shilo357: I just could use the same argument about the order of the stars: You are just refereing to an order that makes sense to YOU.

No you can't make that argument. The order of the stars are what they are. I told you that you are relying on a line of reasoning that makes sense to you, namely that God is no longer the God of the Jews, but such a claim is not found in Scripture. You are relying on what you think, not on Scripture when you make such claims. That in no way resembles what I said about the order of the stars.

But no one knows what order was referred to in that biblical verse. If the order means they remain at fixed positions relative to each other, then there is no order, because they move, meaning the star-signs today don't necassarily look the same as 2000 years ago.

Yeah we pretty much know what it means. You are trying to muddy the water about it, but God's point is that the stars remain intact and their order across our sky is pretty much the same because of the earth's rotation on its axis is fairly constant despite precession and wobbling. Trying to deny the predictability of the stars and moon, which sicence readily acknowledges is futile line of argumentation.

However, that supernatural eclipse that occurred at Jesus's death, is an event that clearly depends on an alteration of the order of the world. So if one wants to interpret it thus, one could say at this point of time God changed the order of the moon, stars etc. And the longer I think about it: this particular time, the death of Jesus, would be a more than apropriate time to end the covenant with Abraham - IF God wanted to. And what sould this eclipse signify? In context to the verse you quoted, it would make sense.

The problem is that you are trying to pick at hairs. Yes God does intervene and do supernatual things, and we can those kinds of exceptions to the rule about the order of things. But the exception doesn't negate the rule. A temporay supernatural event that changes the order of things to accomplish a single, one time objective does not constitute changing the order of stars and other luminiaries. God suspended the rule temporarily. He did not forever change the order. The point in Jeremiah is if the stars and moon and other luminaries no longer function and behave as the are suspposed to, if God no longer preserves them, then He will also break His promises to Israel.

The obvious meaning that God wants us to take from the text is that He is not going to cast off Israel from being His people. God is faithful to His word and just as their is no froce on earth powerful enough to negate His power to preserve the universe, there is no nation, no power on earth that can dissolve His committed faithfulness to Israel.

[hippias]

@ Golden Eagle you are right: Shilo made an interesting observation that made me digress a bit but I think it is relevant for the original question.

You are quoting mostly verses from the OLD testament in order to find an answer to my question, yet I think it should be NEW testament that will shed a light on the covenant. When I read for example Jesus cursing the scribes and Pharisees:

e.g. "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men, for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in " (Matthew 23:13) and

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers! How can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (33),

ending with Jesus lamenting:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth till ye shall say, ‘Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!’” (37-39)

I really don't see in what respect God should be the godhead of the people adresses in these verses. To me Jesus clearly says: If you don't change your ways you shall be damned. And that does not seem at all what God promised Abraham and his descendants in Genesis.

[GoldenEagle]

@ Golden Eagle you are right: Shilo made an interesting observation that made me digress a bit but I think it is relevant for the original question.

You are quoting mostly verses from the OLD testament in order to find an answer to my question, yet I think it should be NEW testament that will shed a light on the covenant. When I read for example Jesus cursing the scribes and Pharisees:

e.g. "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men, for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in " (Matthew 23:13) and

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers! How can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (33),

ending with Jesus lamenting:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth till ye shall say, ‘Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!’” (37-39)

I really don't see in what respect God should be the godhead of the people adresses in these verses. To me Jesus clearly says: If you don't change your ways you shall be damned. And that does not seem at all what God promised Abraham and his descendants in Genesis.

Is the entire Bible God's holy, inspired Word?

[Guest shiloh357]

You are quoting mostly verses from the OLD testament in order to find an answer to my question, yet I think it should be NEW testament that will shed a light on the covenant.

Bu your position isn't even supported in the New Testament.

When I read for example Jesus cursing the scribes and Pharisees:

e.g. "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men, for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in " (Matthew 23:13) and

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers! How can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (33),

Jesus is speaking to His enemies among the Jewish leadership. He is not condemning all of the Jews.

ending with Jesus lamenting:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth till ye shall say, ‘Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!’” (37-39)

But none of that says that God is no longer the God of the Jews. That is a claim that you are trying to assign to the NT, not a statement that the NT ever says. Jesus was lamenting how His people had rejected Him, but keep in mind that In Romans 9, 10 and 11, this was a partial hardening that took place to make room for the Gentiles to be included in the Kingdom of God. So this is not about God rejecting them as His people.

I really don't see in what respect God should be the godhead of the people adresses in these verses. To me Jesus clearly says: If you don't change your ways you shall be damned. And that does not seem at all what God promised Abraham and his descendants in Genesis.

Well fortunately, for the truth, God doesn't see it your way and does not hold to how you think things should be. God is faithful to us even when we mess up and mess up big. Your approach casts doubt on the faithfulness of God in keeping His promises to Israel. Would you like to be faithful to you when you mess up, and disobey, or would you like God to cease being your God when you need Him the most???

I find it rather strange that some people expect God to condemn the Jews when they mess up, are the same people calling on God's mercy when it comes to their own sin.

[AlexanderJ]

Jesus is speaking to His enemies among the Jewish leadership. He is not condemning all of the Jews.

Amen.

In my opinion, any Jew who believes is doubly blessed, and any Jew who disbelieves doubly cursed. A Non-Jew who believes receives the spiritual blessings and spiritual covenant, but a Jew who believes receives the earthly blessings and covenant as well as the spiritual blessings and covenant. And conversely, a non-Jew who disbelieves loses the spiritual blessings and spiritual covenant but a Jew who disbelieves loses the earthly blessings and covenant as well as a spiritual blessings and covenant.

[Peace Maker Tony]

In Genesis 17: 6-8, and in several other places of the Bible, God makes a everlasting covenant, here with Abraham to be his and his seed's God for ever. In Hebrew 8:6-13 Paul, inspired by God, repeats the words of the prophet Jeremiah that He intends to make a new covenant, and then actually carried it out, because the first was not faultless.

To me there seems to be problem in that the first covenant was not at all everlasting as is written God has promised. And I also wonder why God should make a covenant in the first place that is not faultless.

Maybe someone can give me some insights into this issue (and maybe the problem can be solved easily).

There are numerous places in the O.T. that translate the Hebrew word "owlam" as "everlasting", but owlam doesn't always mean that. Such as in Gen 17:13 & Num 25:13 for example.

[Believer112]

shilo357, Golden Eagle and all:

My problem is thus (the following is from the Christian viewpoint, no offence to those of mosaic belief): With the beginning of the Christianity there happened something new and those of the seed of Abraham who did not change their views and worship of God no longer could claim to worship properly and and hold a truthful belief. The true belief is taught by Jesus in the New Testament (new because the old covenant was not faultless) which is by Jews not esteemed in the way desired by God. Hence I don't understand how the Christian God can still be regarded as the God of the Jews if they simply don't belief in Him? And this fact, that Jews are not Chrisitans hold different believes, was certainly present to God when He said to Abraham that He shall be his and his descendants' God for ever.

In any case I will review the Epistle to the Hebrews, it might very well be the case that I have misunderstood something in it. Yet the above still puzzles me.

P.S. @shilo357: To your remark about the order of the stars, sun and moon one might answer that the stars, though commonly called fixed, are not fixed but move and change their order, sometimes even at a speed that makes changes visible during the lifetime of a human being, if you look keen enough. Furthermore when Jesus died on the cross there was an three hour eclipse of the sun which by what is know today is only possible by heavy manipulation of the order of the solar system. So one could regard the prophecy as fulfilled by these facts, if one feel so inclined.

God is for everyone that includes the non believers. He was there when I asked to be saved.

[GoldenEagle]

God is for everyone that includes the non believers. He was there when I asked to be saved.

God created everyone so we're all his creation. So yes in that sense God is the Cretaor of everyone. When we accept Christ we move from His creation to being adopted in Christ as his children. Would you agree?

God bless,

GE