I wonder...

[Guest]

.... If we all allow God to work through us, each of us, I can't get how we can avoid saving the world....

We Rejoice And We Worship

And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Acts 2:46

And The LORD Works His Wonders To Behold

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:47

And The Earth Goes Round And Round

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Matthew 24:35-42

Until.......

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16

~

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[nebula]

No, I mean that Jesus, when He invades our psychologies via the Holy Spirit, turns our lives upside down and inside out. The things that were important to us, such as worldly success and trophy wives and a new SUV every year fade into insignificance. The things that weren't important to us, such as our own misdeeds, and each others well-being, become vital. But having done that for us, I don't see what else Jesus needs to do. He gives us the right attitude - we still need to turn that attitude into good works.

What do you believe God incarnated Himself just to be crucified and then rise from the dead?

I don't see that there is any 'just' about it. More even than His teaching, Jesus has set us the loving example of perfect sacrifice. But it is up to us to emulate that way of sacrifice to the best of our abilities, as far as our circumstances allow, and our disposition will let us.

So what I am hearing from you is that you regard Jesus as a teacher and an example of perfect sacrifice. Is this all you think of Him as?

Do you understand the atonement? And why that was necessary? And why it happened the way it did?

Now, can you show me one Scripture that states God expects us to save the world?

If we all allow God to work through us, each of us, I can't get how we can avoid saving the world.

cheers, eco.

That didn't answer the question.

[OneLight]

Yet, you have set my thoughts running. There is no reason why I shouldn't set up another site expressing my unorthodox melding of philosophy and Christianity. And I would have more space, on such a site, to elaborate, explain and illustrate, than I would here. So I may well do that. It would make an interesting project.

cheers, eco.

The "melding of philosophy and Christianity" has been so since scripture was introduced to the Greeks and one of the problems that the present church has today. We try to place logic in what God does and our minds do not always find the logic, or rational, behind what God is doing and why. Though we do try to use our finite minds to understand an infinite God, we fail terribly in doing so. Trying to meld the two corrupts the message when our philosophy is incorporated into any message.

We read in Isaiah 55:8-9

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,

Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So are My ways higher than your ways,

And My thoughts than your thoughts."

Though we do have the Holy Spirit, who does give us the mind of Christ, it is His mind that bring clarity to His ways that we hold to. Do you see a difference between His ways and our understanding of His ways?

[2ndRateMind]

Yet, you have set my thoughts running. There is no reason why I shouldn't set up another site expressing my unorthodox melding of philosophy and Christianity. And I would have more space, on such a site, to elaborate, explain and illustrate, than I would here. So I may well do that. It would make an interesting project.

cheers, eco.

Do you see a difference between His ways and our understanding of His ways?

@onelight

Oh, most certainly. God is perfect, and sees all through the bright lens of Love. We are imperfect, and see mostly through the tainted, discoloured, distorted lens of self-interest. Yet, I do not think God is irrational. Indeed, were I pushed, I would tend to say that God invented reason, and built us capable of rationality, that we might approach Him. Certainly, the universe seems to be a rational creation, and amenable to rational interrogation. If it was not, the whole scientific project to understand it would be in vain. And yet we know that science works. I think that speaks volumes about the creator.

So, I think that philosophy, a specially abstract combination of fearless creativity and ruthless reason, is a useful endeavour.

Do you understand the atonement? And why that was necessary? And why it happened the way it did?

@neb

No, I readily admit that I do not understand atonement theory. I understand what makes it attractive, but not what makes it true.

Best wishes, eco.

Edited February 25, 2013 by ecoTramp

[GoldenEagle]

Do you understand the atonement? And why that was necessary? And why it happened the way it did?

@neb

No, I readily admit that I do not understand atonement theory. I understand what makes it attractive, but not what makes it true.

Best wishes, eco.

From this dictionary:

Atonement - satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.

I wonder. Do you understand what sin is? Do you understand the need for satisfaction or reparation for our sin?

God bless,

GE

[OneLight]

Yet, you have set my thoughts running. There is no reason why I shouldn't set up another site expressing my unorthodox melding of philosophy and Christianity. And I would have more space, on such a site, to elaborate, explain and illustrate, than I would here. So I may well do that. It would make an interesting project.

cheers, eco.

Do you see a difference between His ways and our understanding of His ways?

@onelight

Oh, most certainly. God is perfect, and sees all through the bright lens of Love. We are imperfect, and see mostly through the tainted, discoloured, distorted lens of self-interest. Yet, I do not think God is irrational. Indeed, were I pushed, I would tend to say that God invented reason, and built us capable of rationality, that we might approach Him. Certainly, the universe seems to be a rational creation, and amenable to rational interrogation. If it was not, the whole scientific project to understand it would be in vain. And yet we know that science works. I think that speaks volumes about the creator.

So, I think that philosophy, a specially abstract combination of fearless creativity and ruthless reason, is a useful endeavour.

I don't see where anyone mentioned God as being irrational. I did point to scripture that tells us we will not understand His rational all the time, for "His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways."

There lies a problem that you have not mentioned. God knows all and we do not, so trying to find reason in His ways is, at time, impossible. Where does that leave you in your endeavor? We will not find all the answers to our questions. We will not be able to show rational in His direction.

The Grecian mindset has been influencing the church for many centuries, if not a couple of millennium. The church has tried to use philosophy in understanding God and have failed terribly. What makes you believe you can do any better? Remember, when reading scripture, one has to understand the culture it was written in to have a fuller understanding of the message. They used circular thought patterns where we use linier, for just one example.

[enoob57]

Yes as my Brother has said- 'IS' -why we are as little children... and our greatest joy 'His little children' ...

He will lead us into all truth in His Good Time and Pleasure... waiting upon Him 'IS' strength in this... Love, Steven

[GoldenEagle]

Do you understand the atonement? And why that was necessary? And why it happened the way it did?

@neb

No, I readily admit that I do not understand atonement theory. I understand what makes it attractive, but not what makes it true.

Best wishes, eco.

From this dictionary:

Atonement - satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.

I wonder. Do you understand what sin is? Do you understand the need for satisfaction or reparation for our sin?

God bless,

GE

Eco I will try to help you understand what makes atonement necessary and true. Not simply a theory. First I assume you agree the Bible is true? If so let's discuss.

Part 1.

All have sinned. Me, you, the people we work with, people who go to church, people who don’t go to church, people who do good things, and people who do bad things – everyone has sinned. Everyone falls short of God’s standard (glory) of perfection. (Rom. 3:23) The only exception is Jesus Christ. Jesus was sinless. (1 John 3:5)

Rom. 3:23

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 John 3:5

You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

The wages of sin is death. (Rom. 6:23) Yet God offers the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23) If one believes in Jesus Christ one will not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Rom. 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus said about himself that He was the way, the truth, and the life. There was no other way to God except through Him:

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts confirms this:

Acts 4:12

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Your thoughts?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Part 2.

How do we know that there needs to be atonement for our sins? We know from Scripture above that everyone has sinned and that Jesus Christ is the only way. Only with shedding of blood is there forgiveness of sins. (Heb. 9:22) Jesus died on the cross for our sins so that we might when we believe be made righteous through Jesus Christ’s righteousness. ( 1 Pet. 2:24) Jesus suffered for our sins, was put to death, to bring us to God. (1 Pet. 3:18)

Heb. 9:22

Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

1 Pet. 3:18

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous {Jesus} for the unrighteous {the rest of us}, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

1 Pet. 2:24

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Jesus is the propitiation for our sins.

Found here:

Propitiation – something that propitiates

Propitiate – to make favorably inclined; appease; conciliate.

1 John 4:10

In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 2:2

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Heb. 10:14

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Jesus paid the ransom for our sins.

Found here:

Ransom – 1. the redemption of a prisoner, slave, or kidnapped person, of captured goods, etc., for a price. 3. A means of deliverance or rescue from punishment for sin, especially the payment of a redemptive fine.

5. to release or restore on receipt of a ransom. 6. to deliver or redeem from punishment for sin.

1 Tim. 2:5-6

⁵ For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ⁶ who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Rev. 5:9

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Eph 1:7

In him {Jesus} we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.

Rom. 4:25

Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Col 1:13-14

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Your thoughts?

God bless,

GE

[enoob57]

The only gift that gives eternally truly a gift that keeps on giving....