I wonder...

[2ndRateMind]

Dear Joe. Your quotes are always illuminating, and your knowledge of the Bible is obviously exemplary. Nevertheless, it is sometimes difficult to discern your point. Can you, perhaps, humour this neophyte Christian, and make a note to explain what you think your quotations actually mean?

Thanks, eco.

[nebula]

I find it hard to reckon percentages. A rich person's 10% goes a lot further than my 10% ever will. For that matter, a rich person's 10% is probably more than my entire month's income!

I think that this is exactly why Christianity has tended to focus on belief as the criterion for salvation, rather than works.

Bad argument. We Christians believe in salvation by grace and faith because this is what the Scriptures state.

Examples:

Romans 10:9-10

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Eph. 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

And accusing us Christians of believing against works in order to get out of doing good deeds is a manipulative lie. If you ever came face to face with the sin you carry in your heart, you would not the Lord to judge your salvation merit by your works.

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked : who can know it?

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away .

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Clearly, the rich can make a bigger impact on society with smaller sacrifice than the poor. Christianity has recognised this from the beginning, and has, not unnaturally, wanted to set a level playing field that is consistent with the notion of a just God.

This is another lie. Can you find anywhere in Acts - "the beginning of Christianity" - where your statement is justified?

My own feeling is that every donated penny will count come judgement day, in precisely the proportion that it constitutes a sacrifice. Meanwhile, in this life, every little helps.

There is more to judgment than salvation. Salvation is about where you stand with Jesus. Good works are rewarded, but only for those who have inherited eternal life to begin with. (Note: eternal life is an inheritance, not a reward.) A saved person who does not bear the fruit of righteousness won't have much to show for his life in Heaven.

Eph. 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Proverbs 19:17 - One who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, And He will repay him for his good deed.

Psalm 62: 11-12

1 One thing God has spoken, two things have I heard: that you, O God, are strong, 12 and that you, O Lord, are loving. Surely you will reward each person according to what he has done.

Those are the kinds of Scriptures and arguments you need to focus on when speaking to Christians.

On the flip-side,if some billionaire puts himself into poverty to give all he has away to the poor but has not repented of his sins nor confessed Jesus as his Lord and Savior, he still is not getting any free passes into Heaven.

Recall how Judas condemned Mary of Bethany for pouring expensive oil on Jesus' feet rather than selling the perfumed oil and giving the money to the poor, but Jesus rebuked him for that?

[nebula]

If the money spent on Rolls-Royces was donated to charities, the jobs would not be gone, just shifted into different sectors, like the manufacture of anti-malaria mosquito nets, or HIV-AIDS medications, or sewerage systems. Less glamorous, perhaps, but essentially more moral.

Jobs would be shifted in more ways than one, though. For example, Rolls-Royces are manufactured in England and Michigan (if I got my info correct). Mosquito nets are made in China and a couple in India. See here

So, shutting down the auto plant will leave people unemployed with no place to go, which increases unemployment, and leaves families without company benefits.

Do you truly believe the solution to poverty is by putting more people into poverty?

And the thing is, if we do resolve this absolute poverty issue, then the global market-place would be so much bigger, the opportunities for trade so much greater, and the potential for economic well-being for everyone radically transformed. The opportunity is for riches for all, instead of riches confined to a privileged elite.

Unfortunately, this works better on paper and in philosophical circles than it does in practice.

"Riches for all" can never happen because people need to generate their own wealth, not live on hand-outs, in order to get out of poverty. One does what they can to improve the lives of others, but riches are not sustainable if the recipient doesn't "sow" his own "seed."

For the record, I'm not justifying "the privileged elite", but they are not the only ones in the world who are greedy and trample down others. Those questions I asked before - it's easy to tell someone else to make sacrifices to the point of hurt, but it's not so easy to do it yourself. Envy is also a sin.

All that to say, putting the car engineers and assembly line workers and mechanics out of work is not the solution to the problem.

[2ndRateMind]

Bad argument. We Christians believe in salvation by grace and faith because this is what the Scriptures state.

Do you never ask yourself why the scriptures say what they say? Do you never consider the thought processes that may have led Paul to write as he did?

[OneLight]

I think that this is exactly why Christianity has tended to focus on belief as the criterion for salvation, rather than works.

Scripture tells us that salvation is through Christ Jesus, where we are then to do His works as we allow Him to be the center of our life and existence, not the other way around. The focus is on Him, not works. The more will give ourselves to Him, the more we will allow Him to work in and through us. The works we do are not of our own, but from Christ.

Clearly, the rich can make a bigger impact on society with smaller sacrifice than the poor.

Yet, it was Jesus who said "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." A Christian should give from the heart, not from excess or set amount.

Christianity has recognised this from the beginning, and has, not unnaturally, wanted to set a level playing field that is consistent with the notion of a just God.

You don't seem to understand the concept of a new creation in Christ. Create a level playing field? Who are we that we can create anything that is above and beyond what Christ creates in us when we surrender to Him? Apart from God, we are just blind fools stumbling around in the dark trying to find the light switch. Trying to create a level playing field is mans way of trying to please God. When someone accepts Christ as their Lord, and obeys His leading in their life, they will do far more and any man could ever do alone.

But, as we have seen on another thread, ('moral responsibility for belief' on this forum) this idea of belief being the sole means to salvation has inherent philosophical problems of it's own.

My own feeling is that every donated penny will count come judgement day, in precisely the proportion that it constitutes a sacrifice. Meanwhile, in this life, every little helps.

Love, eco.

1 Corinthians 13:3 " And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing."

The love that is spoken of is not eh love the world knows, but hte love only God can place in us once we are His children. Without Christ, giving means nothing but a pat on the back.

[OneLight]

Bad argument. We Christians believe in salvation by grace and faith because this is what the Scriptures state.

Do you never ask yourself why the scriptures say what they say? Do you never consider the thought processes that may have led Paul to write as he did?

Paul was led by the Spirit when he penned scripture, not his own mind and thought process.

[GoldenEagle]

I think we have to ask ourselves whether we want to support jobs creating frivolous luxuries, or fundamental necessities. If the money spent on Rolls-Royces was donated to charities, the jobs would not be gone, just shifted into different sectors, like the manufacture of anti-malaria mosquito nets, or HIV-AIDS medications, or sewerage systems. Less glamorous, perhaps, but essentially more moral.

And the thing is, if we do resolve this absolute poverty issue, then the global market-place would be so much bigger, the opportunities for trade so much greater, and the potential for economic well-being for everyone radically transformed. The opportunity is for riches for all, instead of riches confined to a privileged elite.

Best wishes, eco.

Are you looking at this then from a world-wide or global perspective? As in the entire human race? Are you wanting to re-distribute wealth from the developed countries (Europe, N. America, etc.) to the developing countries (everyone else)?

Do you believe it is possible to resolve the absolute poverty issue globally in this life? Or is this something that only will happen with the return of Jesus Christ?

I agree with Nebula that people have to generate their own wealth and not expect hand-outs. Coming from a third world country (developing nation) I know firsthand that aid is not always the best option.

I’ll give you an example. In the northern part of Brazil there was a perceived famine due to a drought. The crop didn’t yield much that year for the local farmers. There was aid brought in from a developed nation. The local workers realized they didn’t have to work but would just receive the free food regardless of their work effort. The problem was only made worst as less work was done and the lack of food increased. Not to mention the aid that was brought in was sold to the population by the corrupt local government instead of handed out freely.

You've heard the Chinese proverb:

“Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”

From a social-economic standpoint we need to be teaching people how to generate their own income, increase their standard of living, and not depend on aid.

These are my thoughts. Yours?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

I think that this is exactly why Christianity has tended to focus on belief as the criterion for salvation, rather than works. Clearly, the rich can make a bigger impact on society with smaller sacrifice than the poor. Christianity has recognized this from the beginning, and has, not unnaturally, wanted to set a level playing field that is consistent with the notion of a just God. But, as we have seen on another thread, ('moral responsibility for belief' on this forum) this idea of belief being the sole means to salvation has inherent philosophical problems of its own.

My own feeling is that every donated penny will count come judgment day, in precisely the proportion that it constitutes a sacrifice. Meanwhile, in this life, every little helps.

Love, eco.

Christianity’s focus is the Bible – the exhaustive, inerrant, and inspired Word of God. The Bible says salvation is through God’s grace through Jesus Christ. It’s a free gift of God and not by works. (Eph. 2:8-9)

We will have to account for everything we’ve done in this life come Judgment Day. Money, time, thoughts, good deeds, bad deeds, etc. The difference is those who BELIEVE are adopted into God’s family as co-heirs in Christ. (Rom. 8:17) This means that instead of our sinful deeds God will judge us who BELIEVE by what Jesus did over 2000 years ago. As OneLight already pointed out God wants mercy not sacrifice. (Hos. 6:6, Matt. 9:13, Matt. 12:7)

Realize too that Worthy is a ministry that just happens to have a discussion board (WCF). I suggest taking a look at our Worthy SoF (Statement of Faith).

God bless,

GE

[gdemoss]

I wonder what percentage of yearly income is donated of those who have a net worth over the threshold of $1 million (I'm not even close btw). I tend to think that richer people are more generous than poorer - at least in percentages of income.

But then again some of the most generous people I've met are those with barely anything that would give you the shirt of their back.

Food, shelter, clothing will always be a problem until Christ returns. I agree with Neb I'm not sure how to reach out to the rich... But food without the Bread of Life (Jesus) is only like putting a bandaid on a major wound that leads to death.

Just my 2 cents.

God bless,

GE

Biblically speaking richer people tend to be less generous and more inclined to trust in uncertain riches. Remember the widows mite. The laws governing giving and receiving allow people to become super wealthy without ever having experienced any real hardship due to giving away wealth. Many times it has the adverse affect and lifts them up in pride as they gloat in their philanthropic endeavors without understanding how God truly views their efforts.

The standard for giving out of love and not according to percentage was set in the wilderness during the days of manna and the principle taught by Paul in the Corinthian epistle but our present day Jacob does not care for the process of giving after the manner of love and is dedicated to his tithe instead and uses Paul's teachings to proclaim that God expects everyone regardless of their position in life to give their 10% as a minimum. One of the many reasons for the coming time of Jacob's trouble. God will turn away ungodliness from Jacob before it is all said and done. A man who has untold billions must understand that he is to live under the same word of God that we are. To whom much is given...much is expected.

Our giving reveals what is in our hearts. It shows where our trust is. And I believe that you agree.

[nebula]

Do you never ask yourself why the scriptures say what they say? Do you never consider the thought processes that may have led Paul to write as he did?

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?