nebula Posted February 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Do you understand the atonement? And why that was necessary? And why it happened the way it did? No, I readily admit that I do not understand atonement theory. I understand what makes it attractive, but not what makes it true. Best wishes, eco. Oh dear. Atonement isn't a theory. Atonement is a key theme all throughout Scripture. GE gave a good explanation, I think. Think this through logically - why would God Almighty lay aside His God-nature to take on human-nature and choose to suffer a very horrible painful death simply to teach and be an example of perfect sacrifice? If mankind has such potential for perfection on our own that we can save ourselves with our own strength, why would He need to go through something of this magnitude? Why would John the Baptist introduce Jesus as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" if all Jesus is is an example? Honestly, Eco, I fail to understand how you can call yourself by Christ's name, yet not believe the writings that testify of Him and explain who He is from beginning to end. How can you believe life is about humanity and not about Him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ndRateMind Posted February 25, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 44 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Do you understand the atonement? And why that was necessary? And why it happened the way it did? No, I readily admit that I do not understand atonement theory. I understand what makes it attractive, but not what makes it true. Best wishes, eco. Oh dear. Atonement isn't a theory. Atonement is a key theme all throughout Scripture. GE gave a good explanation, I think. ... Honestly, Eco, I fail to understand how you can call yourself by Christ's name, yet not believe the writings that testify of Him and explain who He is from beginning to end. How can you believe life is about humanity and not about Him? Ha. I sense the 'not a proper Christian' tactic. It does you no credit. Now, about atonement. It is fundamentally an offense against justice to allow or enable one person to answer for the sins of another. This is widely recognised in all judicial systems in the world on an individual scale - we simply do not allow mothers to accept the punishment due to their sons, or lovers to swap places in the dock, or any such system. I can only think that atonement theory is injustice at such a cosmic level that it has blinded you to it's obvious inconsistancy with the nature of God - that He is loving, merciful and Just. Jesus has not answered for my sins, and if I was given any choice about the matter, I would not allow Him to do so, and I would insist on answering for my own sins. But, in fact, I was offered no such choice. Rather, as I was born again, I went through a process whereby all my sins were paraded before me, and repenting each and every one of them. I assure you, it was no soft option, but the final result, atonement, at-one-ment with God, which cannot happen through anyone else's good offices, or however much blood is uselessly spilt, was worth every moment of mortification. I think this process is common to all who have been born again. If you do not recognise it, perhaps it is your own relationship with the divine that needs a review. Cheers, eco. Edited February 25, 2013 by ecoTramp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 25, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,188 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,467 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Heb 10:29-31 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. NKJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HisG Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 ... can you be both rich and Christian? Yes. Share what you have : ) One has much for a reason. Luke 12 v 48 b: " From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." If people cared for their neighbour (neighbour being anyone they came in contact with), we'd see a staggering amount of LESS people homeless, hungry etc. If everyone did their bit - believers and non-believers, this world would be pretty good don't you think? : ) but of course, people are too self centred and hold money close to their chests... It may be simplistic thinking but that's my opinion anyway : ) Matthew 30/31: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a]31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HisG Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I have to add..: ). ...submitting all your money to God's rulership is paramount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutheran man Posted February 25, 2013 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/01/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 25, 2013 Well, it just occurs to me that there are also millions of malnourished, hungry, poverty struck people. So I'm wondering how you would square an excess of personal wealth with the Christian duty to succour the poor. It's a genuine question, not an attempt to get at anyone. Anyone in America is rich by worldly standards. My wife and I have been blessed with financial security in our middle age. We try very hard to live a moderate lifestyle and always to share our Lord's generosity to us with others. We hope that we are teaching and have taught our children to do similar. Most even in America would consider us "wealthy". We have some "toys" that we purchased that we do use for ourselves but one of the reasons for purchasing them was to better our youth ministry in our church. So yes I believe that a person can be "wealthy" and still a Christian. Think also how many jobs a wealthy Christian who is an employer creates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted February 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Do you understand the atonement? And why that was necessary? And why it happened the way it did? No, I readily admit that I do not understand atonement theory. I understand what makes it attractive, but not what makes it true. Best wishes, eco. Oh dear. Atonement isn't a theory. Atonement is a key theme all throughout Scripture. GE gave a good explanation, I think. ... Honestly, Eco, I fail to understand how you can call yourself by Christ's name, yet not believe the writings that testify of Him and explain who He is from beginning to end. How can you believe life is about humanity and not about Him? Ha. I sense the 'not a proper Christian' tactic. It does you no credit. Now, about atonement. It is fundamentally an offense against justice to allow or enable one person to answer for the sins of another. This is widely recognised in all judicial systems in the world on an individual scale - we simply do not allow mothers to accept the punishment due to their sons, or lovers to swap places in the dock, or any such system. I can only think that atonement theory is injustice at such a cosmic level that it has blinded you to it's obvious inconsistancy with the nature of God - that He is loving, merciful and Just. Jesus has not answered for my sins, and if I was given any choice about the matter, I would not allow Him to do so, and I would insist on answering for my own sins. But, in fact, I was offered no such choice. Rather, as I was born again, I went through a process whereby all my sins were paraded before me, and repenting each and everyone of them. I assure you, it was no soft option, but the final result, atonement, at-one-ment with God, which cannot happen through anyone else's good offices, or however much blood is uselessly spilt, was worth every moment of mortification. I think this process is common to all who have been born again. If you do not recognise it, perhaps it is your own relationship with the divine that needs a review. Cheers, eco. Jesus has not answered for my sins So Jesus Christ died on the Cross for what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutheran man Posted February 25, 2013 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/01/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 25, 2013 All it takes to be a Christian is to believe in your heart and confess with your lips that Jesus Christ died for your sins and rose from the dead. Wealth can be an idol or a tool with which to do ministry. Sometimes even in faithful Christian's lives wealth can at times become an idol, but forgiveness for those times is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ndRateMind Posted February 25, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 44 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) So Jesus Christ died on the Cross for what? Consenting to the cross I walked And as I went the people talked 'There he goes, the king of Jews, Not much the king, not good the news' 'A soldier would be better worth To fetch the Romans down to earth' I do not know, I cannot tell if this act will weave the spell to reach from here to heaven's span and bring forever God to man, but this I know, that I must try and every man must sometime die. Edited February 25, 2013 by ecoTramp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted February 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted February 25, 2013 So Jesus Christ died on the Cross for what? Consenting to the cross I walked And as I went the people talked 'There he goes, the king of Jews, Not much the king, not good the news' 'A soldier would be better worth To fetch the Romans down to earth' I do not know, I cannot tell if this act will weave the spell to reach from here to heaven's span and bring forever God to man, but this I know, that I must try and every man must sometime die. Again with dodging the question. Did Jesus die for you and why? Easy questions. Please try a direct answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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