Molinism

[childeye]

The problem is the word free in front of will which is the cause of my disdain for the term. As I have said I turned to God out of necessity. As such I would consider that all events in my life have led me to God and I would also consider that this is not beyond God's design rather than a chance occurance of a free floating will.

free will

noun

1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision
   
2. Philosophy: the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses a personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine force.
   

There is more on the site linked to, but it says the same thing.

And your point is?

[childeye]

There is nothing wrong with having a free will. It is not in any way going against God by having a free will (He hardwired it into us since the time of Adam)

How we practice this will is the crux of the problem

Hence the prayer "Your will be done", because Jesus knew that free will with no boundaries is a very destructive force.

Well said Fez. How we practice this will is the crux of the problem. Here you have taken the term will and not applied free in front of it, wherein I can agree whole heartedly, because there are no semantics. Then you describe boundries that limit or compromise the word free whatever that free entails in it's intended application. Note that freewill to the carnal mind is free from the righteousness of God and freewill to the spiritual mind is free from being carnal minded. The word free can have two opposite meanings applied to the same word depending on one's perspective. For to be free to sin is to be a slave to righteousness, but to be free from righteousness is to be a slave of sin. Consequently, I have acknowledged that I only recognize the freedom from sin as the only true free will. For servitude to God is the holy order of things as it was in the beginning before Satan proposed the other option which is an unholy slavery to sin in the guise of freedom.

[OneLight]

The problem is the word free in front of will which is the cause of my disdain for the term. As I have said I turned to God out of necessity. As such I would consider that all events in my life have led me to God and I would also consider that this is not beyond God's design rather than a chance occurance of a free floating will.

free will

noun

1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision
   
2. Philosophy: the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses a personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine force.
   

There is more on the site linked to, but it says the same thing.

And your point is?

That your definition of free will is not what free will really is. You claim our will is not free, but it is. We make choices from what we have decided to use as a guide in our lives. That is free will at its basics.

[OneLight]

There is nothing wrong with having a free will. It is not in any way going against God by having a free will (He hardwired it into us since the time of Adam)

How we practice this will is the crux of the problem

Hence the prayer "Your will be done", because Jesus knew that free will with no boundaries is a very destructive force.

Well said Fez. How we practice this will is the crux of the problem. Here you have taken the term will and not applied free in front of it, wherein I can agree whole heartedly, because there are no semantics. Then you describe boundries that limit or compromise the word free whatever that free entails in it's intended application. Note that freewill to the carnal mind is free from the righteousness of God and freewill to the spiritual mind is free from being carnal minded. The word free can have two opposite meanings applied to the same word depending on one's perspective. For to be free to sin is to be a slave to righteousness, but to be free from righteousness is to be a slave of sin. Consequently, I have acknowledged that I only recognize the freedom from sin as the only true free will. For servitude to God is the holy order of things as it was in the beginning before Satan proposed the other option which is an unholy slavery to sin in the guise of freedom.

Look again. Fez is speaking of free will, but because you did not see the word free, you agreed to what he said. This alone proves that you are against a word and not what it means.

[childeye]

There is nothing wrong with having a free will. It is not in any way going against God by having a free will (He hardwired it into us since the time of Adam)

How we practice this will is the crux of the problem

Hence the prayer "Your will be done", because Jesus knew that free will with no boundaries is a very destructive force.

Well said Fez. How we practice this will is the crux of the problem. Here you have taken the term will and not applied free in front of it, wherein I can agree whole heartedly, because there are no semantics. Then you describe boundries that limit or compromise the word free whatever that free entails in it's intended application. Note that freewill to the carnal mind is free from the righteousness of God and freewill to the spiritual mind is free from being carnal minded. The word free can have two opposite meanings applied to the same word depending on one's perspective. For to be free to sin is to be a slave to righteousness, but to be free from righteousness is to be a slave of sin. Consequently, I have acknowledged that I only recognize the freedom from sin as the only true free will. For servitude to God is the holy order of things as it was in the beginning before Satan proposed the other option which is an unholy slavery to sin in the guise of freedom.

Look again. Fez is speaking of free will, but because you did not see the word free, you agreed to what he said. This alone proves that you are against a word and not what it means.

Well, actually if you read what I said, it depends on what it means or applied to as to whether I am against it or not. I'm not mad at a word, but rather a concept that obfuscates. I have no problem accepting the term free to be assigned to being free from sin, but I have a disdain for the word free being assigned to be free to sin. The freewill in the dictionary makes no such distinction as scripture does, so I don't recognize it as anything but illusory or humanist.

[OneLight]

Free will is free will. If I have a free will to follow Christ, I also have the same free will to not follow Christ. The definition is not in the result, but the ability to male a choice that moves into an action.

[childeye]

Free will is free will. If I have a free will to follow Christ, I also have the same free will to not follow Christ. The definition is not in the result, but the ability to male a choice that moves into an action.

Your missing the point. The same will that denies Christ is not the same will that accepts Christ. There is no place where someone stands and does both at once. There are degrees of faith as one comes out of darkness. But God does not give you the power to deny Christ. Light does not cast out Light. So what power behind the will denies Christ? Read the scripture. The children of the devil display the traits of the devil. A free wiill as you envision it, is you're free to both deny and accept Christ, is it not? You therefore envision free will as a free floating will able to do both by your own control. This does not exist. You think you can be a child of God one moment and a child of the devil the next and so on back and forth. You think you choose between powers from somewhere in between rather than see all things began in servitude to God without any such choice available. From there the powers of darkness turned us away from God, and now the powers of Light turn us back to God. If people are in control over their selves and this in between is a fifty fifty equal choice all the time, then how do you explain Saul turning into Paul? How do you explain the apostles all being persecuted and murdered? Is that coincidence? No. There is a power of darkness orchestrating the silencing of the Truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and it controls people. And this Gospel is spreading the news that there is a kingdom of God and the world is not want to receive it lest it admit there exists a kingdom of Light and they are in the kingdom of darkness. Consequently, I am not debating that we make choices but saying that there are spiritual powers behind our moral choices. Powers of darkness therefore reject the Light and all who preach of it, and powers of Light preach the truth knowing full well they will be persecuted for it.

[OneLight]

Free will is free will. If I have a free will to follow Christ, I also have the same free will to not follow Christ. The definition is not in the result, but the ability to male a choice that moves into an action.

Your missing the point. The same will that denies Christ is not the same will that accepts Christ. There is no place where someone stands and does both at once. There are degrees of faith as one comes out of darkness. But God does not give you the power to deny Christ. Light does not cast out Light. So what power behind the will denies Christ? Read the scripture. The children of the devil display the traits of the devil. A free wiill as you envision it, is you're free to both deny and accept Christ, is it not? You therefore envision free will as a free floating will able to do both by your own control. This does not exist. You think you choose between powers from somewhere in between rather than see all things began in servitude to God without any such choice available. From there the powers of darkness turned us away from God, and now the powers of Light turn us back to God. If people are in control over their selves and this in between is a fifty fifty equal choice all the time, then how do you explain Saul turning into Paul? How do you explain the apostles all being persecuted and murdered? Is that coincidence? No. There is a power of darkness orchestrating the silencing of the Truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and it controls people. And this Gospel is spreading the news that there is a kingdom of God and the world is not want to receive it lest it admit there exists a kingdom of Light and they are in the kingdom of darkness. Consequently, I am not debating that we make choices but saying that there are spiritual powers behind our moral choices. Powers of darkness therefore reject the Light and all who preach of it, and powers of Light preach the truth knowing full well they will be persecuted for it.

OK, I am done with this conversation. I have spent days trying to get you to see that free will is the ability to decide, be it for or against anything, yet you refuse to even try to understand. Instead you continue to try and force a different definition to the meaning of free will. You do not listen, but analyze. Instead of listening to what I say, you continue to "morph" my words into something it is not, then reply with your understanding.

There is a time when we just has to let someone go and allow them find out through another means.

I do pray that you do remove your blinders and continue to learn.

God Bless!

[childeye]

Free will is free will. If I have a free will to follow Christ, I also have the same free will to not follow Christ. The definition is not in the result, but the ability to male a choice that moves into an action.

Your missing the point. The same will that denies Christ is not the same will that accepts Christ. There is no place where someone stands and does both at once. There are degrees of faith as one comes out of darkness. But God does not give you the power to deny Christ. Light does not cast out Light. So what power behind the will denies Christ? Read the scripture. The children of the devil display the traits of the devil. A free wiill as you envision it, is you're free to both deny and accept Christ, is it not? You therefore envision free will as a free floating will able to do both by your own control. This does not exist. You think you choose between powers from somewhere in between rather than see all things began in servitude to God without any such choice available. From there the powers of darkness turned us away from God, and now the powers of Light turn us back to God. If people are in control over their selves and this in between is a fifty fifty equal choice all the time, then how do you explain Saul turning into Paul? How do you explain the apostles all being persecuted and murdered? Is that coincidence? No. There is a power of darkness orchestrating the silencing of the Truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and it controls people. And this Gospel is spreading the news that there is a kingdom of God and the world is not want to receive it lest it admit there exists a kingdom of Light and they are in the kingdom of darkness. Consequently, I am not debating that we make choices but saying that there are spiritual powers behind our moral choices. Powers of darkness therefore reject the Light and all who preach of it, and powers of Light preach the truth knowing full well they will be persecuted for it.

OK, I am done with this conversation. I have spent days trying to get you to see that free will is the ability to decide, be it for or against anything, yet you refuse to even try to understand. Instead you continue to try and force a different definition to the meaning of free will. You do not listen, but analyze. Instead of listening to what I say, you continue to "morph" my words into something it is not, then reply with your understanding.

There is a time when we just has to let someone go and allow them find out through another means.

I do pray that you do remove your blinders and continue to learn.

God Bless!

Come on OneLight. I'm doing my best here to not frustrate you. I'm frustrated too, right there with ya. I apologize for twisting what you mean to say. We are arguing semantics. You"re saying, I chose God, and I'm saying you could always turn to God because God was always there... I used to believe the same as you, so I see the difference. The difference is one is more thankful.

[BlessedByTheBest]

i only jest, childeye.

we are partly in agreement, because i don't believe i can even lift a finger to type this if not by His Divine Providence, but at the least, i am given the illusion of that liberty by which i will be judged.

the tares will be righteously punished because they willingly chose to be slaves to sin.

Interesting. Please expound.

sure, thank you for your interest in my views.

well, i believe i have already expressed this to you in other words... i don't believe my apparent free will is potent enough to cause any true change in this world, because the origin of the power made manifest through me is not mine.

my supposed will can be broken, as was proven to me upon being born again as a new creature through Christ Jesus.

i do not even own myself, for i was purchased at a price.

to assume i possess anything that i am not merely a steward of is folly. so in this sense, we are in agreement, partly.

but i am, at the least, given the illusion of that liberty upon this grand stage of Creation, wherein the wheat is separated from the chaff.

is it not within your purview to choose righteousness over wickedness?

as for my second statement, those who have formally rejected Jesus Christ in their hearts, have done so willfully and whether or not they are blinded to the Truth by deception is irrelevant.. because their blindness is by choice.

those who are slaves to sin knowing very well who their master is, willingly choose that slavery to the whims of their flesh, and are without excuse.

willing participants who happily exercise wickedness, and knowingly reject righteousness.

Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance of the serpent's subtlety, they were cursed for their disobedience, and exiled from paradise. they failed their test.

those prudent enough to truthfully seek, love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ through all tests of patience, will surely find sufficient oil within their lamps in their weakest hour.

and the same are those who must be willing to assist the weaker brethren in their walk. Paul would have traded in his salvation for the salvation of another. that love is pure.

but those lacking in True love and faith will be exposed, and cast into outer darkness because God knows the wickedness that brews within the hearts of men, and He is Holy and Just.

it is the Father's will that all come to salvation and the knowledge of His Son, and His everlasting mercy is made manifest upon that Cross.

and so your promoting of forgiveness is justified, in that we are to approach all matters concerning each other in the same loving kindness our Father has displayed for us.

but i believe that willful disobedience must be appropriately defined.

we are all sinners, but we are all imparted the power to overcome sin by He who is All-Powerful, and so sin should be judged as what it exactly is. Sin.

love to you.

Thank you for this post. I now see better what is at the foundation of your reasoning on this matter. Essentially the difference between my view and yours is, you look at it as a test, and I look at it as a lesson. More on that, But first, I would like to address, this question.

is it not within your purview to choose righteousness over wickedness?

Yes, it is but not by my freewill, or independent intitiative, but by divine providence of God's Word in my heart mind and soul. There is nothing good in the flesh that would recognize righteousness. Nor would the word righteousness even mean the same thing to the carnal mind. And so it is that semantics will now become a problem. For what if I am yet carnal as Paul so aptly put it? And this is why I make the distinction between a test and a lesson wherein both terms intersect from two perspectives. So that the failures of a test given, become a lesson learned if indeed any progress is made towards that end. And here where progress is stymied is also where I see pride. Hence a fool (proud) despises correction, and the wise Love instruction.

So that brings me to the question of, what is behind this pride that despises correction? And I seek an answer so that I may learn a lesson. If I were to simply answer because I could, I have gained no insight. And so I note that the bible states that the children have the characteristics of their father. And these character traits are described in the moral paradigm as either to be born of God or born of the Devil. So I look to the devil to understand the foundation of the vanity in creation that usurps what is the energy of the Creator. And here I find that the devil is enamored with himself, not because he is made by God with many gifts and talents, but because he is unthankful, and therefore does not have the ability to understand what great gifts they are without being Lowly and without them. And this is revealed in how he shows disdain for those less gifted than himself. As if they could have been like him, if only they wanted to. Hence the scriptures show him in heaven accusing the brethren day and night with the idea that men sin because they simply want to in selfish servitude to themselves, rather than due to their weaknesses in being made of flesh which he cannot understand. Hence God chose the lowly and weak things to put to not the High and mighty things. Hence men will judge angels.

Consequently, the devil is in fact projecting his own vanity upon those under him unbeknownst to himself in a blind hypocrisy. He is enamored with the clothes God gave him and has forgotten his nakedness. This mindset would therefore reject correction simply because it thinks it needs none and is all knowing like unto God. But this is a lesson for all, so that we who have been chosen out of the lowly things should remember lest it happen to us.

Which brings me to this statement, Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance of the serpent's subtlety, they were cursed for their disobedience, and exiled from paradise. they failed their test.

When Adam and Eve chose disobedience they accepted in their subconcious the same vanity inherent in Satan's false and subtle premise. Of course through the gift of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God and His Christ I can see this now. Therefore just as Adam and Eve were innocent, I too was vulnerable to this same premise which begets vanity prior to God's ecellent instruction through the Holy Spirit. So yes, Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance which I think cannot be helped. For such vanity is inevitable in my estimation according to humility. They were cursed for their disobedience which was in fact, in the big picture, a blessing by which they could learn to be thankful for that which they originally took for granted. In all of this, I fail to see a freewill other than the one I described as a will set free by the knowledge of God. I have never discounted that we make choices or that we must willingly choose a direction in the moral paradigm, only that those choices are preceded or limited by an ignorance and knowledge of God. As a created being who has received some enlightenment in this matter only by God's grace, I see no avenue for blame without falling into the same vanity that began the whole ordeal.

thank you for your thoughts.

every trial is a test, and a lesson within itself so they do indeed intersect, whether it be the result of a failure or a success. there is of course always space for improvement on that which is born imperfect.

my test has only begun, and i pray that the lessons that are brought to my attention are acknowledged as such as i continue seeking to place Christ at the forefront of every experience.

i believe Paul's description of the daily proverbial struggle within, paints a beautiful contrast between our fallen nature, and our divine nature. true spiritual warfare begins upon coming to know a genuine actuality of your salvation.

i don't blame this body, my fallen nature, or even sin itself. sin reeks of satan. nothing more than a glorified tyrant, personified. it can only tempt, entice, and draw upon my mortal weaknesses.

but i have a choice to make that indeed depends on the pride of my heart.

if i nurture that which is spiritual, then that which is spiritual shall triumph, and vice-versa..

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

it seems to me, that if there is anything to blame, it is my independent initiative(or passivity) towards walking in righteousness. this is because our Father is a perfect gentleman, and fully respects our judgement of that which requires faith in action.

and so, by His Divine Providence, it is within my purview to seek Him, or to turn my back. i am guilty on all counts by His Holy standard, and am blessed that my righteousness is inscribed through Christ.

i thoroughly enjoyed your analysis of our mutual adversary, and may Christ continue blessing you in every thing.

but i disagree with your final statement concerning our choices.

perfected man who walked with God had no limitations of knowledge or ignorance of his Creator.