Molinism

[childeye]

i only jest, childeye.

we are partly in agreement, because i don't believe i can even lift a finger to type this if not by His Divine Providence, but at the least, i am given the illusion of that liberty by which i will be judged.

the tares will be righteously punished because they willingly chose to be slaves to sin.

Interesting. Please expound.

sure, thank you for your interest in my views.

well, i believe i have already expressed this to you in other words... i don't believe my apparent free will is potent enough to cause any true change in this world, because the origin of the power made manifest through me is not mine.

my supposed will can be broken, as was proven to me upon being born again as a new creature through Christ Jesus.

i do not even own myself, for i was purchased at a price.

to assume i possess anything that i am not merely a steward of is folly. so in this sense, we are in agreement, partly.

but i am, at the least, given the illusion of that liberty upon this grand stage of Creation, wherein the wheat is separated from the chaff.

is it not within your purview to choose righteousness over wickedness?

as for my second statement, those who have formally rejected Jesus Christ in their hearts, have done so willfully and whether or not they are blinded to the Truth by deception is irrelevant.. because their blindness is by choice.

those who are slaves to sin knowing very well who their master is, willingly choose that slavery to the whims of their flesh, and are without excuse.

willing participants who happily exercise wickedness, and knowingly reject righteousness.

Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance of the serpent's subtlety, they were cursed for their disobedience, and exiled from paradise. they failed their test.

those prudent enough to truthfully seek, love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ through all tests of patience, will surely find sufficient oil within their lamps in their weakest hour.

and the same are those who must be willing to assist the weaker brethren in their walk. Paul would have traded in his salvation for the salvation of another. that love is pure.

but those lacking in True love and faith will be exposed, and cast into outer darkness because God knows the wickedness that brews within the hearts of men, and He is Holy and Just.

it is the Father's will that all come to salvation and the knowledge of His Son, and His everlasting mercy is made manifest upon that Cross.

and so your promoting of forgiveness is justified, in that we are to approach all matters concerning each other in the same loving kindness our Father has displayed for us.

but i believe that willful disobedience must be appropriately defined.

we are all sinners, but we are all imparted the power to overcome sin by He who is All-Powerful, and so sin should be judged as what it exactly is. Sin.

love to you.

Thank you for this post. I now see better what is at the foundation of your reasoning on this matter. Essentially the difference between my view and yours is, you look at it as a test, and I look at it as a lesson. More on that, But first, I would like to address, this question.

is it not within your purview to choose righteousness over wickedness?

Yes, it is but not by my freewill, or independent intitiative, but by divine providence of God's Word in my heart mind and soul. There is nothing good in the flesh that would recognize righteousness. Nor would the word righteousness even mean the same thing to the carnal mind. And so it is that semantics will now become a problem. For what if I am yet carnal as Paul so aptly put it? And this is why I make the distinction between a test and a lesson wherein both terms intersect from two perspectives. So that the failures of a test given, become a lesson learned if indeed any progress is made towards that end. And here where progress is stymied is also where I see pride. Hence a fool (proud) despises correction, and the wise Love instruction.

So that brings me to the question of, what is behind this pride that despises correction? And I seek an answer so that I may learn a lesson. If I were to simply answer because I could, I have gained no insight. And so I note that the bible states that the children have the characteristics of their father. And these character traits are described in the moral paradigm as either to be born of God or born of the Devil. So I look to the devil to understand the foundation of the vanity in creation that usurps what is the energy of the Creator. And here I find that the devil is enamored with himself, not because he is made by God with many gifts and talents, but because he is unthankful, and therefore does not have the ability to understand what great gifts they are without being Lowly and without them. And this is revealed in how he shows disdain for those less gifted than himself. As if they could have been like him, if only they wanted to. Hence the scriptures show him in heaven accusing the brethren day and night with the idea that men sin because they simply want to in selfish servitude to themselves, rather than due to their weaknesses in being made of flesh which he cannot understand. Hence God chose the lowly and weak things to put to not the High and mighty things. Hence men will judge angels.

Consequently, the devil is in fact projecting his own vanity upon those under him unbeknownst to himself in a blind hypocrisy. He is enamored with the clothes God gave him and has forgotten his nakedness. This mindset would therefore reject correction simply because it thinks it needs none and is all knowing like unto God. But this is a lesson for all, so that we who have been chosen out of the lowly things should remember lest it happen to us.

Which brings me to this statement, Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance of the serpent's subtlety, they were cursed for their disobedience, and exiled from paradise. they failed their test.

When Adam and Eve chose disobedience they accepted in their subconcious the same vanity inherent in Satan's false and subtle premise. Of course through the gift of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God and His Christ I can see this now. Therefore just as Adam and Eve were innocent, I too was vulnerable to this same premise which begets vanity prior to God's ecellent instruction through the Holy Spirit. So yes, Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance which I think cannot be helped. For such vanity is inevitable in my estimation according to humility. They were cursed for their disobedience which was in fact, in the big picture, a blessing by which they could learn to be thankful for that which they originally took for granted. In all of this, I fail to see a freewill other than the one I described as a will set free by the knowledge of God. I have never discounted that we make choices or that we must willingly choose a direction in the moral paradigm, only that those choices are preceded or limited by an ignorance and knowledge of God. As a created being who has received some enlightenment in this matter only by God's grace, I see no avenue for blame without falling into the same vanity that began the whole ordeal.

thank you for your thoughts.

every trial is a test, and a lesson within itself so they do indeed intersect, whether it be the result of a failure or a success. there is of course always space for improvement on that which is born imperfect.

my test has only begun, and i pray that the lessons that are brought to my attention are acknowledged as such as i continue seeking to place Christ at the forefront of every experience.

i believe Paul's description of the daily proverbial struggle within, paints a beautiful contrast between our fallen nature, and our divine nature. true spiritual warfare begins upon coming to know a genuine actuality of your salvation.

i don't blame this body, my fallen nature, or even sin itself. sin reeks of satan. nothing more than a glorified tyrant, personified. it can only tempt, entice, and draw upon my mortal weaknesses.

but i have a choice to make that indeed depends on the pride of my heart.

if i nurture that which is spiritual, then that which is spiritual shall triumph, and vice-versa..

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

it seems to me, that if there is anything to blame, it is my independent initiative(or passivity) towards walking in righteousness. this is because our Father is a perfect gentleman, and fully respects our judgement of that which requires faith in action.

and so, by His Divine Providence, it is within my purview to seek Him, or to turn my back. i am guilty on all counts by His Holy standard, and am blessed that my righteousness is inscribed through Christ.

i thoroughly enjoyed your analysis of our mutual adversary, and may Christ continue blessing you in every thing.

but i disagree with your final statement concerning our choices.

perfected man who walked with God had no limitations of knowledge or ignorance of his Creator.

it is within my purview to seek Him, or to turn my back.

We are talking semantics. When you say this, I only read you saying, We take God for granted and are unthankful. So also is why I don't like the concept of freewill.

[BlessedByTheBest]

i understand. it is of course within your purview to discern that our ability to choose between fellowship with God or against it as, thankless.

but then that is only because it would mean you have to admit that we did this to ourselves.

and that is perfectly OK.

[BlessedByTheBest]

but as i said, we are in agreement to a degree.

there is no choice i can make through "free will" that does not retain a primal cause. if we follow any action, it will always regress to its point of origin..and so causal regression does in this sense make a True Free Will impossible.

but i can still keep typing this, or end it here.

and you could just ignore me.

love to you.

[OneLight]

Come on OneLight. I'm doing my best here to not frustrate you. I'm frustrated too, right there with ya. I apologize for twisting what you mean to say. We are arguing semantics. You"re saying, I chose God, and I'm saying you could always turn to God because God was always there... I used to believe the same as you, so I see the difference. The difference is one is more thankful.

The only reason I had time to commit to this conversation in the first place is because I was on vacation. I just don't have to time otherwise to stay on top of this and have tried my best already.

Now that I have to return to work, my focus while online will be my admin duties.

[childeye]

i understand. it is of course within your purview to discern that our ability to choose between fellowship with God or against it as, thankless.

but then that is only because it would mean you have to admit that we did this to ourselves.

and that is perfectly OK.

Yes we did it to ourselves in our ignorance, and we even blame others for that which we ourselves admit to doing. Where you see a spirit of not admitting guilt in what I present, I see a way to forgive and be forgiven on account of ignorance not guilt. We face death and hell now. So to me to be sorry for being disobedient now is only a self-serving sorrow. For I know I do not want to believe God is a liar nor betray that Love that is on the cross because of my sin and guilt. Therefore I am sorry for the right reason, because someone else suffered. I'm not beating myself up for the mistake of being disobedient. It's not about me. It's about the beating Christ took and suffered so that all sins may be forgiven. I don't accept guilt, nor do I hand it out. I move on.

Hebrews 6:1-20

New International Version (NIV)

6 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,

[childeye]

Come on OneLight. I'm doing my best here to not frustrate you. I'm frustrated too, right there with ya. I apologize for twisting what you mean to say. We are arguing semantics. You"re saying, I chose God, and I'm saying you could always turn to God because God was always there... I used to believe the same as you, so I see the difference. The difference is one is more thankful.

The only reason I had time to commit to this conversation in the first place is because I was on vacation. I just don't have to time otherwise to stay on top of this and have tried my best already.

Now that I have to return to work, my focus while online will be my admin duties.

Sorry to see you go. Thanks for trying your best with me.

[BlessedByTheBest]

i understand. it is of course within your purview to discern that our ability to choose between fellowship with God or against it as, thankless.

but then that is only because it would mean you have to admit that we did this to ourselves.

and that is perfectly OK.

Yes we did it to ourselves in our ignorance, and we even blame others for that which we ourselves admit to doing. Where you see a spirit of not admitting guilt in what I present, I see a way to forgive and be forgiven on account of ignorance not guilt. We face death and hell now. So to be sorry for being disobedient is only a self-serving sorrow. For I know I do not want to believe God is a liar nor betray that Love that is on the cross because of my sin and guilt. Therefore I am sorry for the right reason, because someone else suffered. I'm not beating myself up for the mistake of being disobedient. It's not about me.It's about the beating Christ took and suffered so that all sins may be forgiven. I don't accept guilt, nor do I hand it out. I move on.

Hebrews 6:1-20

New International Version (NIV)

6 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,

what were we ignorant of?

you're spot on about pointing the finger anywhere but the mirror. when i cry tears in prayer it is for the lost, and for the sacrifice Christ has made for us.

but i of course had to grow out of those feelings of guilt and truly accept grace freely given. it is all a process.

although i do have sin to genuinely repent of daily that does nothing to devalue the chief Corner-stone's work on the cross.

blessings, and may my and your spiritual maturity progress as the Holy Spirit sees fit.

[childeye]

i understand. it is of course within your purview to discern that our ability to choose between fellowship with God or against it as, thankless.

but then that is only because it would mean you have to admit that we did this to ourselves.

and that is perfectly OK.

Yes we did it to ourselves in our ignorance, and we even blame others for that which we ourselves admit to doing. Where you see a spirit of not admitting guilt in what I present, I see a way to forgive and be forgiven on account of ignorance not guilt. We face death and hell now. So to be sorry for being disobedient is only a self-serving sorrow. For I know I do not want to believe God is a liar nor betray that Love that is on the cross because of my sin and guilt. Therefore I am sorry for the right reason, because someone else suffered. I'm not beating myself up for the mistake of being disobedient. It's not about me.It's about the beating Christ took and suffered so that all sins may be forgiven. I don't accept guilt, nor do I hand it out. I move on.

Hebrews 6:1-20

New International Version (NIV)

6 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,

what were we ignorant of?

you're spot on about pointing the finger anywhere but the mirror. when i cry tears in prayer it is for the lost, and for the sacrifice Christ has made for us.

but i of course had to grow out of those feelings of guilt and truly accept grace freely given. it is all a process.

although i do have sin to genuinely repent of daily that does nothing to devalue the chief Corner-stone's work on the cross.

blessings, and may my and your spiritual maturity progress as the Holy Spirit sees fit.

What were we ignorant of?

That same thing we were unthankful for.

[BlessedByTheBest]

are you saying we were ignorant of the awesome, grand and lavish unconditional love of God? i would have to respectfully disagree.

everything was given to Adam.

now ungrateful, and willfully disobedient? yes.

because the temptation appealed to their pride, and desire to be as equally wise as their Maker.

blaming others, as Adam blamed Eve for his folly? yes.

and so ungrateful is an understatement, because he implies it was God's fault for He created his companion.. lol

enticed? yes. beguiled? yes. ignorant? no.

i sense no ignorance in the account of Genesis 3.

i agree, there is no point in blaming the original two for the Lord knows the end from the beginning.

but we can condemn and identify that which is willful sin against a Holy God.

if we do not, then wherein lies the lesson?

[Guest]

Is There A Difference Between The Ignorant

The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. 1 Samuel 2:7-9

And The Willfully Ignorant

And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Isaiah 13:11

Hum....

Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 1 Peter 5:5

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What were we ignorant of?

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Man's Will

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:3

Or God's Will

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4

Man's Work Fails The Mark

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Romans 10:5

While The LORD's Work IS The Mark

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Romans 10:6-7

And A Fellow Will Either Give God The Glory Glory Glory

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10

Or A Fellow Will Live

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? Isaiah 43:10-13

To Steal It

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:3

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In My Experience A Man's Belief In Jesus

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

Is Directly Related To A Man's Will To Believe In Jesus Christ

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

And The Strength Of A Man's Will To Believe In Jesus Is Directly Related To The Food

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

A Man Will Eat

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

You See

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe