eternal security

[enoob57]

There is this consideration of flesh and Spirit Rom 7... Paul has been converted 22 years to Christ and active in ministry

that is rarely seen in others in function and self sacrifice -YET- a present situation of personal witness within himself-

Ro 7:13-25

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me

through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law

is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not

practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no

longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is

present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will

not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to

the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity

to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I

thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

NKJV

It may not sit well with our desired to be viewed as Godly in our living but always- 'always' -evil is present with us to operate out

of fleshly desires ... that is why we can only reckon it dead and as time, the beautiful drawing of accomplishment, we will be separated

from this body and world into the cleanness God has prepared for us! This reality keeps us broken in spirit and contrite of heart for

God 'IS' worth perfect death to ourselves and living obedience to His Ways -YET- in our bodies we fail... Love, Steven

[TheresaJ]

i know people who say someone can lose their salvation, but i hear that salvation is a gift, not earned by works.

what do you believe?

I believe the Bible proves that a person is not saved by faith alone and that a person can definitely fall from grace through serious sins and ultimately lose their salvation if they persist in those sins. Certainly what a person DOES has everything to do with salvation. Faith without works is dead.

[OneLight]

i know people who say someone can lose their salvation, but i hear that salvation is a gift, not earned by works.

what do you believe?

I believe the Bible proves that a person is not saved by faith alone and that a person can definitely fall from grace through serious sins and ultimately lose their salvation if they persist in those sins. Certainly what a person DOES has everything to do with salvation. Faith without works is dead.

How do you believe in Ephesians 2:8-10 then? God clearly tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, and that works are due to our salvation, not salvation itself.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

[TheresaJ]

i know people who say someone can lose their salvation, but i hear that salvation is a gift, not earned by works.

what do you believe?

I believe the Bible proves that a person is not saved by faith alone and that a person can definitely fall from grace through serious sins and ultimately lose their salvation if they persist in those sins. Certainly what a person DOES has everything to do with salvation. Faith without works is dead.

How do you believe in Ephesians 2:8-10 then? God clearly tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, and that works are due to our salvation, not salvation itself.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I believe in Ephesians 2:8-10 because Ephesians 2:8-10 is referring to baptism which is a gift of God. How do you believe in James 2:24 then?

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[OneLight]

i know people who say someone can lose their salvation, but i hear that salvation is a gift, not earned by works.

what do you believe?

I believe the Bible proves that a person is not saved by faith alone and that a person can definitely fall from grace through serious sins and ultimately lose their salvation if they persist in those sins. Certainly what a person DOES has everything to do with salvation. Faith without works is dead.

How do you believe in Ephesians 2:8-10 then? God clearly tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, and that works are due to our salvation, not salvation itself.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I believe in Ephesians 2:8-10 because Ephesians 2:8-10 is referring to baptism which is a gift of God. How do you believe in James 2:24 then?

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Where in that verse does it even mention baptism? Read it again ... it is not there.

The answer to your question is in verse 10 of the verses I provided. When we are His, we are conformed to be like Christ, where we will do the works that have been prepared for us so we could do them. Only those who are His will obey His leading. It is the process of sanctification that we go through in this life. If you take what your verse says, it speaks of justification, not salvation.

[TheresaJ]

i know people who say someone can lose their salvation, but i hear that salvation is a gift, not earned by works.

what do you believe?

I believe the Bible proves that a person is not saved by faith alone and that a person can definitely fall from grace through serious sins and ultimately lose their salvation if they persist in those sins. Certainly what a person DOES has everything to do with salvation. Faith without works is dead.

How do you believe in Ephesians 2:8-10 then? God clearly tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, and that works are due to our salvation, not salvation itself.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I believe in Ephesians 2:8-10 because Ephesians 2:8-10 is referring to baptism which is a gift of God. How do you believe in James 2:24 then?

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Where in that verse does it even mention baptism? Read it again ... it is not there.

The answer to your question is in verse 10 of the verses I provided. When we are His, we are conformed to be like Christ, where we will do the works that have been prepared for us so we could do them. Only those who are His will obey His leading. It is the process of sanctification that we go through in this life. If you take what your verse says, it speaks of justification, not salvation.

You can see the proof that Ephesians 2:8-10 is referring to water baptism when you compare that verse to Titus 3 and then to 1 Peter 3:20-21. The passages in Ephesians and Titus are very similar. They're referring to the same thing. We see Ephesians describing it as being saved through "faith" ( because accepting baptism is submitting to faith) while Titus describes it as the washing and renewing of the Holy Ghost. They're talking about the same thing. Baptism is described as faith in Galations 3:26-27.

Now look at 1 Peter 3:20-21. There is no work anyone could do to substitute for water baptism. Baptism is the initial justification and removal of sin. After a person enters the Church through baptism (which is the work of God) his deeds and works become part of the justification process, and a factor which will determine whether or not he maintains that justification. This is clear from James 2:24. A person cannot be justified without also being sanctified.

[OneLight]

You can see the proof that Ephesians 2:8-10 is referring to water baptism when you compare that verse to Titus 3 and then to 1 Peter 3:20-21. The passages in Ephesians and Titus are very similar. They're referring to the same thing. We see Ephesians describing it as being saved through "faith" ( because accepting baptism is submitting to faith) while Titus describes it as the washing and renewing of the Holy Ghost. They're talking about the same thing. Baptism is described as faith in Galations 3:26-27.

Now look at 1 Peter 3:20-21. There is no work anyone could do to substitute for water baptism. Baptism is the initial justification and removal of sin. After a person enters the Church through baptism (which is the work of God) his deeds and works become part of the justification process, and a factor which will determine whether or not he maintains that justification. This is clear from James 2:24. A person cannot be justified without also being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 needs no other scripture to clarify it, as some do. It is clear all alone. Titus 3 speaks of the beginning and the continuing growth in Him as we live in this life. Her are verses 1-7

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

If you are referring to "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.", the regeneration is what happens to us when we accept Christ. This is seen in 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." The renewing of the Holy Spirit happens all the time as we grow in Him.

As for 1 Peter 3:20-21, Peter is speaking of being baptized into His resurrection, not water. Let's look at verses 18-22.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Notice it is said we are made alive in the Spirit? It is His Holy Spirit that makes us alive in Him after salvation through which Christ did for us. Water baptism is only an outward expression of an inner work. Can you see a person being baptized in the Holy Spirit? No, we can only see the results, so is the reason for water baptism. The water did not save Noah, God did.

I do hope the search engine gets fixed soon so you can see how many times people have come here claiming one must be baptized in order to be saved, which is mans doctrine, not scripture.

[missmuffet]

You can see the proof that Ephesians 2:8-10 is referring to water baptism when you compare that verse to Titus 3 and then to 1 Peter 3:20-21. The passages in Ephesians and Titus are very similar. They're referring to the same thing. We see Ephesians describing it as being saved through "faith" ( because accepting baptism is submitting to faith) while Titus describes it as the washing and renewing of the Holy Ghost. They're talking about the same thing. Baptism is described as faith in Galations 3:26-27.

Now look at 1 Peter 3:20-21. There is no work anyone could do to substitute for water baptism. Baptism is the initial justification and removal of sin. After a person enters the Church through baptism (which is the work of God) his deeds and works become part of the justification process, and a factor which will determine whether or not he maintains that justification. This is clear from James 2:24. A person cannot be justified without also being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 needs no other scripture to clarify it, as some do. It is clear all alone. Titus 3 speaks of the beginning and the continuing growth in Him as we live in this life. Her are verses 1-7

Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

If you are referring to "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.", the regeneration is what happens to us when we accept Christ. This is seen in 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." The renewing of the Holy Spirit happens all the time as we grow in Him.

As for 1 Peter 3:20-21, Peter is speaking of being baptized into His resurrection, not water. Let's look at verses 18-22.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Notice it is said we are made alive in the Spirit? It is His Holy Spirit that makes us alive in Him after salvation through which Christ did for us. Water baptism is only an outward expression of an inner work. Can you see a person being baptized in the Holy Spirit? No, we can only see the results, so is the reason for water baptism. The water did not save Noah, God did.

I do hope the search engine gets fixed soon so you can see how many times people have come here claiming one must be baptized in order to be saved, which is mans doctrine, not scripture.

You are right OneLight.One does not have to be baptized to be saved.When I was a Lutheran that is what they believed and so do the Catholics.The thief who was next to Christ on the cross who excepted Him was not baptized but Jesus said to him "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

[Guest shiloh357]

yes, but shiloh, heres the question-if a genuine believer doesn't have the will, doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability. And the analogy is faulty, there are many people who growing up, have never had the will, or want to hurt a kid-but something changes and they end up hurting a kid. . .

No, it doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability. I have the ability to murder, but I don't have the will to do it. I have the physical means to do a lot of things that I would not even think of doing. Will and ability are two different things. People can will to do what they don't have the ability to do.

So the analogy is not faulty at all. There is one important difference, though. In Salvation, there is a fundamental transformation of the heart that fundamentally changes how we view sin. It is not like simply changing what you desire such as changing whether one wills to hurt a child or not. It is such a fundamental transformation that everything is made new.

[Tinky]

In Salvation, there is a fundamental transformation of the heart that fundamentally changes how we view sin. It is not like simply changing what you desire such as changing whether one wills to hurt a child or not. It is such a fundamental transformation that everything is made new.

All I can add is