Guest shiloh357 Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 I believe God does answer the prayers of unbelievers. I was not saved when God answered my first prayer. I asked Jesus into my heart right after the answer, I was 5. It was a child's prayer....and was actually a bit of a challenge...but God answered immediately in the affirmative and caused something to happen that showed me He is real. Simple. God knows our hearts and why we pray and what is in our hearts when we pray....saved, or not. That was a prayer of repentance and salvation and that is why He answered it.If someone is an unbeliever I don't know why they would pray. That's the question for me too, Bopeep. Why would a nonbeliever pray to a God he/she doesn't believe exists? I can't make that make sense. I believe He only answers prayers from a nonbeliever if it is one of repentence. And, in that case, the person wouldn't be a nonbeliever. Not all unbelievers are atheists. There are people who believe in God, but never submit to Him. But what if a young couple had a baby fighting for life in the hospital's ICU and neither one of them are believers but in desperation they pray to God to save their baby's life? Does God hear that prayer? Did Jesus turn a deaf ear to unbelievers who asked for His help? Did not Jesus heal the daughter of the syro-phonecian woman? Didn't he heal the the servant of the Centurion? Neither of them were "believers" and if Jesus is the revelation of the Father's heart, character and operations, then why would God not hear and maybe even grant the request of an unbeliever in this kind of situation? If God's "program" is to restore man to Himself, then why would He not be kind to unbelievers? Why would he not be involved in their lives and even at times hearing and answering their requests for help. The Bible says that it is the goodness of God that leads man to repentance. That being the case, wouldn't God showing His love to unbelievers, even in a supernatural way, be an important means of reaching them? I mean you start healing people's sick babies and they will be more interested in what you have say and what you have to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjp34652 Posted June 1, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 156 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2013 (edited) Here is my question. Jesus fulfilled the requests of the Syro-Phonecian woman who asked Him to heal her daughter. He healed the servant of the Centurion when the Centurion asked Him to. In the book of Acts, Cornelius, a partial proselyte to the Jewish religion was praying at the prescribed Minkha (afternoon) prayer time and was visited by an agnel of God and was told that God had heard his prayers. None of these people were "believers" in the way we are using that word, here. None of them except Cornelius are recorded as having ever become believers and they were all Gentiles, to boot. I don't think God listens to the prayers of those who are lawless who try to use prayer to own their wicked purposes. But consider the following scenario: A young set of parents have a newborn that is sick and in intensive care. Neither are believers, but cry out to God for help to save their newborn's life. Do you think God turns a deaf ear? I mean if we sinful people could not help but be touched and would do anything we could to save a child's life, why would God not be touched as well? I am not saying that God is under any obligation to heal the baby, but do you think he turns a deaf ear to that request? And, if He were to heal that baby, might not it be possible that such an act of goodness on His part contribute to this young couple coming to repentance? If not, why not? Here is your answer; Did the people in your Biblical examples not ask the Lord directly for specific help for exact problems? They did. Did Jesus not appear personally to the people in the Biblical examples? He did. Jesus appeared to people who needed His help and when they asked Him for specific answers they got it. This series of examples illustrates the point that Jesus must be intimately involved in the prayer on both ends of the instance. Most important is that the man or woman be fully aware of their circumstance and that they have an intimate relationship with Christ in order to hope for an answer. Jesus is no longer walking the earth in the flesh, but the principle of prayer is the same. There must be a meeting between the person and the savior before effective prayer can begin. Typically that means the sinner must first make peace with Christ before his relationship with Jesus can be sealed by the second birth. Jesus said, "unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven". That includes answered prayers as well as eternal security. Your hypothetical question, like most hypothetical religious questions, is a non-sequitur. The conclusion does not logically follow the question. Repentance has little to do with dead babies or healed ones. Repentance has to do with personal sin and the individuals desire to be rid of it. Sick or dead babies do not suffer because of their parent's sin. Neither can a man be saved by divine healing of his child. The only instance where sin is transferred is by the blood of Christ, which removes it. Nothing is more precious than the blood of Jesus - the blood of the Holy Lamb of God. Each man or woman is responsible for dealing with their own situation before God. Neither is it up to any of us to judge the eternal destination of another, whether he be 99 years old or 99 seconds old. and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited June 1, 2013 by rjp34652 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Here is my question. Jesus fulfilled the requests of the Syro-Phonecian woman who asked Him to heal her daughter. He healed the servant of the Centurion when the Centurion asked Him to. In the book of Acts, Cornelius, a partial proselyte to the Jewish religion was praying at the prescribed Minkha (afternoon) prayer time and was visited by an agnel of God and was told that God had heard his prayers. None of these people were "believers" in the way we are using that word, here. None of them except Cornelius are recorded as having ever become believers and they were all Gentiles, to boot. I don't think God listens to the prayers of those who are lawless who try to use prayer to own their wicked purposes. But consider the following scenario: A young set of parents have a newborn that is sick and in intensive care. Neither are believers, but cry out to God for help to save their newborn's life. Do you think God turns a deaf ear? I mean if we sinful people could not help but be touched and would do anything we could to save a child's life, why would God not be touched as well? I am not saying that God is under any obligation to heal the baby, but do you think he turns a deaf ear to that request? And, if He were to heal that baby, might not it be possible that such an act of goodness on His part contribute to this young couple coming to repentance? If not, why not? Here is your answer; Did the people in your Biblical examples not ask the Lord directly for specific help for exact problems? They did. Did Jesus not appear personally to the people in the Biblical examples? He did. Jesus appeared to people who needed His help and when they asked Him for specific answers they got it. This series of examples illustrates the point that Jesus must be intimately involved in the prayer on both ends of the instance. Most important is that the man or woman be fully aware of their circumstance and that they have an intimate relationship with Christ in order to hope for an answer. Jesus is no longer walking the earth in the flesh, but the principle of prayer is the same. There must be a meeting between the person and the savior before effective prayer can begin. Typically that means the sinner must first make peace with Christ before his relationship with Jesus can be sealed by the second birth. Jesus said, "unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven". That includes answered prayers as well as eternal security. Your hypothetical question, like most hypothetical religious questions, is a non-sequitur. The conclusion does not logically follow the question. Repentance has little to do with dead babies or healed ones. Repentance has to do with personal sin and the individuals desire to be rid of it. Sick or dead babies do not suffer because of their parent's sin. Neither can a man be saved by divine healing of his child. The only instance where sin is transferred is by the blood of Christ, which removes it. Nothing is more precious than the blood of Jesus - the blood of the Holy Lamb of God. Each man or woman is responsible for dealing with their own situation before God. Neither is it up to any of us to judge the eternal destination of another, whether he be 99 years old or 99 seconds old. and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft... That doesn't really deal with the crux of the question I raised. That Jesus was walking the earth at the time he granted the requests of unbelievers is irrelevant. Jesus is the revelation of the character and nature of the father and Jesus granted their requests as unbelievers. God heard the prayer of Cornelius in the book of Acts AFTER the ascension of Jesus. So, Jesus needing to be physically present is demonstrated as unnecessary. The point in my hypothetical example is that it matches the kinds of requests unbelievers made from Jesus while on earth. They didn't know Jesus was God. They didn't come to Him and repent of anything. They simply asked for help and they received it. I didn't say that repentance was linked to dead babies. The point is that this argument that God never hears the prayers of ALL unbelievers simply can't be supported from Scripture. We speak of the mercy of God all of the time, but if an unbeliever calls out to God in desperation, our rigid unbending theology states that there is nothing for them, no mercy and that God will not listen to them or turn his face in their direction unless it is a prayer for salvation. Yet is the very mercy of God that might be the thing that brings them to repentance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjp34652 Posted June 1, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 156 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2013 (edited) Not supported by scripture? Did you not read my quote of Jesus' own words? I'll write them again, just in case you missed them. "Unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." This is a prerequisite from the mouth of Jesus Christ saying that repentance and the second birth must preceed a relationship of prayer. God hears all prayers, even those of a sinner, but He does not personally respond to any except those of repentance. The spiritual principle here is that the relationship must be restored first before consistent prayer life begins. Some responses to the thread's initial question imply an exception to the rule of salvation by the blood of Christ and repentance. There is no exception whatsoever. If you believe this too rigid, then your ideology is mistaken. Many things in life are equally rigid. Whether we like it or not we must learn to live with them. The facts of spiritual life are no less rigid. God does not respect man simply because man is self-important. God thinks and acts and does according to His own designs and will. That which has been revealed to man is man's responsibility to accept. There is no salvation apart from the blood of Christ and repentance of sin. If the reader disapproves of Biblical intent and Jesus' own words, then I suggest he take it up with the author. and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited June 1, 2013 by rjp34652 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted June 1, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,180 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,458 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted June 1, 2013 God hears all prayers, even those of a sinner, but He does not personally respond to any except those of repentance. Just out of curiosity! After this blanket statement you've made above Here... does it bother you at all that God has taken the time to write all these verses down saying different? Jn 9:31-32 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. NKJV Job 35:12-13 12 There they cry out, but He does not answer, Because of the pride of evil men. 13 Surely God will not listen to empty talk, Nor will the Almighty regard it. NKJV Ps 34:15 15 The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their cry. NKJV Ps 66:18 18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear. NKJV Pr 15:29 29 The Lord is far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous. NKJV Pr 28:9 9 One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer is an abomination. NKJV Isa 1:15 15 When you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you; Even though you make many prayers, I will not hear. Your hands are full of blood. NKJV Jer 11:11 11 Therefore thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will surely bring calamity on them which they will not be able to escape; and though they cry out to Me, I will not listen to them NKJV Eze 8:18 18 Therefore I also will act in fury. My eye will not spare nor will I have pity; and though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them." NKJV Mic 3:4 4 Then they will cry to the Lord, But He will not hear them; He will even hide His face from them at that time, Because they have been evil in their deeds. NKJV Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted June 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted June 1, 2013 The John 9 reference is only showing the words of a man and what he was taught---not what God says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjp34652 Posted June 1, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 156 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2013 (edited) God hears all prayers, even those of a sinner, but He does not personally respond to any except those of repentance. Just out of curiosity! After this blanket statement you've made above Here... does it bother you at all that God has taken the time to write all these verses down saying different? Jn 9:31-32 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. NKJV Job 35:12-13 12 There they cry out, but He does not answer, Because of the pride of evil men. 13 Surely God will not listen to empty talk, Nor will the Almighty regard it. NKJV Ps 34:15 15 The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their cry. NKJV Ps 66:18 18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear. NKJV Pr 15:29 29 The Lord is far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous. NKJV Pr 28:9 9 One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer is an abomination. NKJV Isa 1:15 15 When you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you; Even though you make many prayers, I will not hear. Your hands are full of blood. NKJV Jer 11:11 11 Therefore thus says the Lord: "Behold, I will surely bring calamity on them which they will not be able to escape; and though they cry out to Me, I will not listen to them NKJV Eze 8:18 18 Therefore I also will act in fury. My eye will not spare nor will I have pity; and though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them." NKJV Mic 3:4 4 Then they will cry to the Lord, But He will not hear them; He will even hide His face from them at that time, Because they have been evil in their deeds. NKJV Love, Steven The question pivots upon the definition of a sinner. In the OT salvation was corporate. In the NT salvation is private/personal. Prior to Jesus' death upon the cross, salvation meant being a Hebrew or Jew. If one was a member of that group, one was selected for salvation. Animal sacrifices provided the payment for sin offered on behalf of the group. But these sacrifices were never meant to be permanent. They were temporary and had to be offered constantly. When Jesus died on the cross, His sacrifice was permanent. It ushered in the New Covenant announced by God, that He would work personally with the heart of man. Salvation didn't depend upon group membership, only the blood of Christ. 'Sinner', is defined as one who is not covered or justified by a sacrifice. In the OT a sinner is one who is not a Hebrew/Jew. In the NT a sinner is one who has not accepted the sacrifice for sin provided by Jesus. What then of works? We are saved for good works, not by them. Christianity is unique among all religions in that saving grace is offered by God through the blood of Christ. Nothing need be done in terms of works. One need only accept Christ. All other religions state that eternal rewards depend upon works - being a good boy or girl. Under these conditions, 'goodness' is best defined as behavior acceptable to a group of men - not God. A law abiding citizen, for example, may never go to jail for an offense and may even receive awards and accolades from his fellows for good works, but all his certificates will not allow him admission through the gates of Paradise. The Bible never allows for that sort of self-righteousness. Neither personal righteousness nor prayers nor good works of any kind will be accepted by God unless a man is first justified by the blood of Jesus. Everybody else is a sinner. and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited June 1, 2013 by rjp34652 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjp34652 Posted June 1, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 156 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2013 (edited) The John 9 reference is only showing the words of a man and what he was taught---not what God says. Your statement is heresy. If you truly believe what you've written, you are believing a lie. John 9 is from the Bible. As such it is the Word of God. If you only wish to attend to the words of man, you will find libraries full of such things. None of it will bring you an inch closer to the Kingdom of God. But you're free to wallow in it if you wish to do so. You will find little of value there - spiritually. The Bible is the Word of God and as such provides all the knowledge necessary for salvation, knowledge of God and knowledge of the human condition. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited June 1, 2013 by rjp34652 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted June 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted June 1, 2013 The John 9 reference is only showing the words of a man and what he was taught---not what God says. Your statement is heresy. If you truly believe what you've written, you are believing a lie. John 9 is from the Bible. As such it is the Word of God. If you only wish to attend to the words of man, you will find libraries full of such things. None of it will bring you an inch closer to the Kingdom of God. But you're free to wallow in it if you wish to do so. You will find little of value there - spiritually. The Bible is the Word of God and as such provides all the knowledge necessary for salvation, knowledge of God and knowledge of the human condition. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft... HERESY? Try reading the story in CONTEXT! You'll see the man was merely speaking out of his own knowledge that he was taught ERRONEOUSLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted June 1, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,180 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,458 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted June 1, 2013 The John 9 reference is only showing the words of a man and what he was taught---not what God says. Did you not read all the OT Scriptures that specifically say what this man was reiterating? Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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