Guest shiloh357 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 You are confusing me. You say its one thing to struggle as a repentant gay person and battle temptation. Then you go on to say if they remain gay and don't need to repent of this sin. What I said is if they remain gay and don't feel a need to repent, they are not Christians. You cannot be gay and be an authentic follower of Jesus. Please reread my post, as I think you are just reacting to what you think I am saying not what I actually posted. I guess we need to first start with what do we consider gay?Sin always begins in the heart. If you willingly entertain homosexual feelings and feel that your urges towards a member of the same sex are normal and would not have a problem with carrying them out, it would be fair to say that you are a homosexual. As of right now I am confused about what you are trying to say concerning gay people who refuse to live out that lifestyle because they want to remain faithful to Jesus. Please help me out with this. If they truly want to be faithful to Jesus, then they will deal with sin problem in their heart. Their basic problem begins with not feeling that being gay is a sin. They are trying to do in the flesh what only Jesus can do. They need to repent of being gay in their heart and let Jesus deliver them from that perversion. They need to view their sin from a biblical perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubting_tommy Posted May 28, 2013 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2013 Does anyone here believe that an adult male who lusts after little children and sees them as sexual objects, but doesn't actually act on it, can be a genuine follower of Jesus Christ?? Does a man who fuels his lust with porn and views women as sex objects everywhere he goes but doesn't act on those feelings qualify as a genuine follower of Jesus? If a man has hates people and fantasizes about shooting up a shopping mall or a elementary school but doesn't actually carry out those fantasies be considered genuine follower of Jesus? What other sin could person entertain in their heart and seriuosly desire to carry out without actually doing it and still be an authentic Christian? Ohter than Homosexuality?? Why is homosexuality singled as the ONE sin listed in the Bible that isn't REALLY a sin? Why is it singled out as the one sin you can harbor in your heart and it not be problematic or inconsistent with the Christian life??? I agree with the logic of your argument - it looks inconsistent to believe that homosexuality alone should be exempt if we are going to condemn the other people in the examples you give. My view is that to be a follow of Christ must be about making decisions - using our free will to make choices: choices about learning about the Bible's message, studying it and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus. The question then is whether or not one can choose to experience certain kinds of thoughts. If one can choose whether one experiences homosexual desire, for example, then one is responsible for whether one is homosexual and if experiencing homosexual desire is against the teaching of Jesus, then someone who chooses to experience homosexual desire is not following Christ. This is the point at which my view parts ways with yours, as I believe that while we are responsible for how we act upon our desires, and while there are things we can choose to do which will minimise or eliminate certain kinds of desire, I believe that we are not responsible for all of the thoughts that occur to us or the feelings that we have. We know that this is true in at least some cases, involving severely mentally ill people, for example. I don't believe someone who experiences homosexual desire is necessarily responsible for that experience, so I do believe they could be a follower of Jesus if they chose not to act on it (assuming that Jesus is opposed to homosexuality, which seems a reasonable assumption). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 If they truly want to be faithful to Jesus, then they will deal with sin problem in their heart. Their basic problem begins with not feeling that being gay is a sin. They are trying to do in the flesh what only Jesus can do. They need to repent of being gay in their heart and let Jesus deliver them from that perversion. They need to view their sin from a biblical perspective. See you are confused, it is Jesus that deals with the heart not them. They can't deal with their heart they have no clue how. The fact that they are refusing the flesh its desires proves that something has been given over. Once again, you have no clue what is being worked out, you only see a partial picture. Let the the Artist do His work. Yes, my point is that Jesus is the only one who can change their heart. So what is the problem with that??? They can try to modify their behavior, but they cannot change theri heart. That is my point, they need to recognize what the Biible says about their sin and come to Jesus for deliverance. That they try to modify thier own behavior instead of recognizing the sinfulness of their heart shows that they have not given it over to Jesus. As long as WE are the ones trying to do it, we have not surrendered it to Jesus. They are doing what they are doing in the flesh, trying to do what only Jesus can do for them. They don't think being gay is a sin and that proves that they have a very serious heart problem that only Jesus can resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 You assume that being gay automatically makes you lustful. No, I think it makes you a sinner. I used the issue of lust to illustrate a point about how sin begins the heart. Homosexual desire is sinful according to Scripture. Your stance is obviously prejudice and non rational. My stance is based on the clear statements from the Bible. I am sorry you don't like what the Bible says about homosexuality. The same logic would say that a heterosexual is automatically lusting after women, thus guilty of the same sin as the homosexual You are confused. What I am saying is that lusting after a member of the opposite sex is as sinsful as homosexual desire. They are both perversions of God's plan for human sexuality. Shiloh one question for you...Are you a liar? No. Are you? Why yes I am a liar. Being a liar is in my dna. Do I practice a lying lifestyle...no I do not. Bless the Lord, I have repented of being a liar. While we may not do these things we still struggle with them, because they are in our dna, some more strongly than others. Great. Thanks for making my point. We are all tempted to sin, but those of us who truly love Jesus struggle and resist that temptation no matter what the sin is. We are still fallen creatures and we are awaiting the day that our sin will be eradicated, but till then we struggle with and resist the sin in our heart and we war against the flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is the difference here. We are new creations who, in the power of the Spirit war agaisnt the flesh. Gays who see nonthing sinful or wrong with being gay, but decieve themselves into thinking they are Christians are not surrending over to Jesus. They are still standing in their sin even if they don't act on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desi2007 Posted May 28, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,220 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 219 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/18/1966 Share Posted May 28, 2013 That just pulled me in to that religious shell, I don't want to be offensive, we are not to judge each other. You dont know the pain someone goes thru & the joy the freedom they have received. James 5:11 The Lord is full of compassion & mercy. Ephesions 4:15 Speak the truth in Love. John 3:17 For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the World, but that the world thru Him may be saved. Prov 29:26 Fear of human opinion disable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted May 28, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted May 28, 2013 If you aren't involved in that behavior, you are not a heterosexual or homosexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Ok, you lost me again here, you are saying you are saying one thing, but it sounds totally different. You are saying that a person who truly loves Jesus, will struggle and resist that temptation, yet you say that because ones who are gay choose to not fulfill the lust of the flesh are not Christians or love Jesus. This makes no sense to me. It makes no sense to me either because that is not what I said. You are depicting what they are doing in the wrong way. They don't see being gay as a sin. In their hearts, they are sinners because they still harbor and justify their sin as not being sin at all. Their approach is to divorce the sinful act from the sinful motivation that precipitates it. You can't do that; the Bible doesn't do that. Having a desire to murder is as bad as the actual act of murder. Sin begann in the heart and it doesn't really matter if you act on it or not. The sin has already taken hold and needs to be repented of. Celibacy is no impediment to the flesh and many who pledge celibacy can only keep it up for a season, and they fall back into it when the temptation gets too strong. Celibacy is a form of ancient asceticism and is not a biblical concept. In fact, it is nowhere taught in the Bible. So they are not operating by the Holy Spirit, as He would not lead them to something that isn't scriptural. Their hearts are bent toward homosexuality. That is where the problem lies, in their hearts. The fact that they are seeking to be celibate doesn't mean anything. That is a carnal act. They are trying resist the flesh, in the flesh and not in the Spirit. Like I said, can we first get what your definition of what gay is that way I can understand where you are coming from a bit better. As of right now, your statement sounds like a contradiction. The contradiction lies in your inability to correctly frame what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 If having the temptation and resisting it means that we do not love Jesus, then nobody would love Jesus. No one is making that assertion. No one is speaking against those who resist the temptation. It is those who justify sin to the point that they claim it is not sin at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 28, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,377 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,555 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Ok, you lost me again here, you are saying you are saying one thing, but it sounds totally different. You are saying that a person who truly loves Jesus, will struggle and resist that temptation, yet you say that because ones who are gay choose to not fulfill the lust of the flesh are not Christians or love Jesus. This makes no sense to me. It makes no sense to me either because that is not what I said. You are depicting what they are doing in the wrong way. They don't see being gay as a sin. In their hearts, they are sinners because they still harbor and justify their sin as not being sin at all. Their approach is to divorce the sinful act from the sinful motivation that precipitates it. You can't do that; the Bible doesn't do that. Having a desire to murder is as bad as the actual act of murder. Sin begann in the heart and it doesn't really matter if you act on it or not. The sin has already taken hold and needs to be repented of. Celibacy is no impediment to the flesh and many who pledge celibacy can only keep it up for a season, and they fall back into it when the temptation gets too strong. Celibacy is a form of ancient asceticism and is not a biblical concept. In fact, it is nowhere taught in the Bible. So they are not operating by the Holy Spirit, as He would not lead them to something that isn't scriptural. Their hearts are bent toward homosexuality. That is where the problem lies, in their hearts. The fact that they are seeking to be celibate doesn't mean anything. That is a carnal act. They are trying resist the flesh, in the flesh and not in the Spirit. Like I said, can we first get what your definition of what gay is that way I can understand where you are coming from a bit better. As of right now, your statement sounds like a contradiction. The contradiction lies in your inability to correctly frame what I said. This is the foundation of God where we see The Scriptures being fulfilled within our lives even to the very heart of what we are! 1 Co 2:10-12 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. NKJV Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 If having the temptation and resisting it means that we do not love Jesus, then nobody would love Jesus. No one is making that assertion. No one is speaking against those who resist the temptation. It is those who justify sin to the point that they claim it is not sin at all. But isn't the OP about resisting temptation? In Christ Luca The problem is that celibicy isn't biblical. They are trying resist temptation in the flesh, but they have not dealt with the real problem. In their hearts, being gay is not a sin at all. They fully believe that they can be gay and still be Christians. They are not repenting of sin. They are simply trying to resist the flesh by means of the flesh and that will only lead to failure. God doesn't call us to be celibate. Celibacy is a human, secular concept, not a biblical one. It is not the same as abstenance and I think people mistake the too. Abstinance is biblical, but celibacy is not. Celibacy treats sex as a bad thing. Sex, when used properly is very godly. Celibacy is a form of self abuse. They are trying treat the symptom while ignoring the bigger problem of the sin that is their heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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