Floatingaxe Posted June 8, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted June 8, 2013 If people are not tithing, then it is the pastor's duty to speak to them. It is his flock and his responsibility. If they are so miserly that they cannot support a pastor, then they deserve some strong teaching and admonition. It is difficult for visitors to have to sit through it, as they may come away with a bad taste in their mouths, but it is not their spiritual home, and they need to put that into perspective. Try to remember when you were a kid, playing at a friend's house and standing by while your friends mom or dad disciplined your friend. Uncomfortable, but completely appropriate for that family to function as that family. While OP was not about tithing, and I thought I was clear on that. I'll comment on the discipline part, though. There are enough tithing threads on Worthy already. I'll say it again. This thread is not about tithing. Its about people who were giving or tithing as lead as member of thier church who were being harassed and otherwise arm twisted, coerced, etc. in an attempt by the church leadership to "encourage" them to give more. There is a big difference between teaching proper NT giving and arm twisting that went so far that I and others would consider it harassment. Elders calling you up almost demanding you give more money is harrassment in my book -- especially when my friends were already tithing to begin with. God loves a cheeful giver. Giving is supposed to be out of love -- not "do it or else." The church leadership was, and still is, way off the rails on this, and that's why they have 2/3rds fewer members than they did 8 months ago. That's right. That church leadership went beyond their proper parameters for leadership, and who knows who was made privy to the giving records, especially when people were being singled out and called at home? That was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Its not up to the leadership of the church to decide how much and how often. Only the giver is responsable for this. 2 Corithians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. It is the leadership's responsibility to teach and encourage those within their influence to obey the Lord. Tithing is not the same as simple giving. The OP was not about tithing, axe. It was about the leadership being off the rails and trying to club those who were already giving into giving more. If you want to deal with tithing, please start another thread. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted June 8, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,798 Content Per Day: 6.20 Reputation: 11,244 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2013 Its not up to the leadership of the church to decide how much and how often. Only the giver is responsable for this. 2 Corithians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. This is an excellent reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted June 8, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Its not up to the leadership of the church to decide how much and how often. Only the giver is responsable for this. 2 Corithians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. It is the leadership's responsibility to teach and encourage those within their influence to obey the Lord. Tithing is not the same as simple giving. The OP was not about tithing, axe. It was about the leadership being off the rails and trying to club those who were already giving into giving more. If you want to deal with tithing, please start another thread. Thank you. I don't need reminding about what the thread is about. I have already addressed the issue concerning how the church leadership should behave. The church in question overstepped the authority that God has given them, although they do need to admonish the membership when they are not being faithful in their giving or tithing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted June 8, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Its not up to the leadership of the church to decide how much and how often. Only the giver is responsable for this. 2 Corithians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. It is the leadership's responsibility to teach and encourage those within their influence to obey the Lord. Tithing is not the same as simple giving. The OP was not about tithing, axe. It was about the leadership being off the rails and trying to club those who were already giving into giving more. If you want to deal with tithing, please start another thread. Thank you. I don't need reminding about what the thread is about. I have already addressed the issue concerning how the church leadership should behave. The church in question overstepped the authority that God has given them, although they do need to admonish the membership when they are not being faithful in their giving or tithing. But you are wrong about the pastor being responsible to God for the congregations spiritual health. The pastors words will be measured, yes, but so will the word of anyone who speaks it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Its not up to the leadership of the church to decide how much and how often. Only the giver is responsable for this. 2 Corithians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. This is an excellent reply. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted June 8, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Its not up to the leadership of the church to decide how much and how often. Only the giver is responsable for this. 2 Corithians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. It is the leadership's responsibility to teach and encourage those within their influence to obey the Lord. Tithing is not the same as simple giving. The OP was not about tithing, axe. It was about the leadership being off the rails and trying to club those who were already giving into giving more. If you want to deal with tithing, please start another thread. Thank you. I don't need reminding about what the thread is about. I have already addressed the issue concerning how the church leadership should behave. The church in question overstepped the authority that God has given them, although they do need to admonish the membership when they are not being faithful in their giving or tithing. But you are wrong about the pastor being responsible to God for the congregations spiritual health. The pastors words will be measured, yes, but so will the word of anyone who speaks it. No, you are mistaken. It is the truth that a pastor, placed by God to lead the 'flock'---the local church---is responsible to God for how he leads. He is the caretaker of the spiritual health of the body of Christ under his authority. He will be called to give an account. 1 Peter 5:2-4 Care for the flock that God has entrusted to you. Watch over it willingly, not grudgingly—not for what you will get out of it, but because you are eager to serve God. 3 Don’t lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your own good example. 4 And when the Great Shepherd appears, you will receive a crown of never-ending glory and honor. Hebrews 13:17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted June 8, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 8, 2013 No, you are mistaken. It is the truth that a pastor, placed by God to lead the 'flock'---the local church---is responsible to God for how he leads. He is the caretaker of the spiritual health of the body of Christ under his authority. He will be called to give an account. 1 Peter 5:2-4 Care for the flock that God has entrusted to you. Watch over it willingly, not grudgingly—not for what you will get out of it, but because you are eager to serve God. 3 Don’t lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your own good example. 4 And when the Great Shepherd appears, you will receive a crown of never-ending glory and honor. Hebrews 13:17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit. Our spiritual health is our own responsibility. The truth of the matter is that if we are sinning, scripture says that those who witness our sin are to come to us and try to show us our error, it is still up to us to walk away from that sin or not. When it comes to spiritual growth, we can hear a thousand sermons, but the actual spiritual growth comes from learning of God and from God by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. It is the desire to grow, and being conformed to Jesus. No pastor can force a person to stop sinning or to force a person to grow. That is very clear in the way Paul approached people. When he shared the gospel with the Bereans, he praised them for searching the scriptures to test what Paul was saying, to see if it was true. When others criticized Pauls ministry and questioned his apostleship, he did not order and demand obedience, but instead spoke persuasively. A leader is to lead by example, following God to the best of his ability, and care for the people to the best of his ability but it is not the leaders responsibility if a person sins, or fails to grow, provided he has done all that is written and followed God, and searched himself, allowing God to reveal any failures in him as a leader is a servant. A person is to be responsible to God for their growth and actions. Not to the leader. A person is to judge teaching given to them to make sure it is of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted June 8, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted June 8, 2013 No, you are mistaken. It is the truth that a pastor, placed by God to lead the 'flock'---the local church---is responsible to God for how he leads. He is the caretaker of the spiritual health of the body of Christ under his authority. He will be called to give an account. 1 Peter 5:2-4 Care for the flock that God has entrusted to you. Watch over it willingly, not grudgingly—not for what you will get out of it, but because you are eager to serve God. 3 Don’t lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your own good example. 4 And when the Great Shepherd appears, you will receive a crown of never-ending glory and honor. Hebrews 13:17 Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit. Our spiritual health is our own responsibility. The truth of the matter is that if we are sinning, scripture says that those who witness our sin are to come to us and try to show us our error, it is still up to us to walk away from that sin or not. When it comes to spiritual growth, we can hear a thousand sermons, but the actual spiritual growth comes from learning of God and from God by the teaching of the Holy Spirit. It is the desire to grow, and being conformed to Jesus. No pastor can force a person to stop sinning or to force a person to grow. That is very clear in the way Paul approached people. When he shared the gospel with the Bereans, he praised them for searching the scriptures to test what Paul was saying, to see if it was true. When others criticized Pauls ministry and questioned his apostleship, he did not order and demand obedience, but instead spoke persuasively. A leader is to lead by example, following God to the best of his ability, and care for the people to the best of his ability but it is not the leaders responsibility if a person sins, or fails to grow, provided he has done all that is written and followed God, and searched himself, allowing God to reveal any failures in him as a leader is a servant. A person is to be responsible to God for their growth and actions. Not to the leader. A person is to judge teaching given to them to make sure it is of God. It's obvious you miss the point. Our pastors have a special responsibility to make sure we are fed well and guided in the truth. You cannot deny that, seeing as the word of God teaches you this. What you do with the truth is your responsibility. By the way---the pastor's job doesn't begin and end with sermons. The pastor is a brother or sister in Christ who has a gift just like every one of us do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted June 9, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2013 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. Something else to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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