revolutionist90 Posted July 9, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 460 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/26/1990 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I might be reading more into this than it should be but in regards to Luke 16:27-31: 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment 29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. The whole story begins at 16:19 My question is in regards to those who are non-believers and I guess what one would call lukewarm Christians. We do not really know if the rich man was a believer or not but I do want to focus on the last phrase in regards to the ability of a person to change. 1. Could the phrase be saying that if a person does not believe and closes their ears (thus not hearing Moses or the prophets) that even the rising of the dead will not work? 2. Because a person needs faith to be able to believe in the unseen the viewing of the dead person coming back to life would not have any affect because they would right if off as a anomaly? 3. I think about this in terms of atheist who sees everything from a scientific format or basically whatever they can see. I would think the rising of a dead person would be pretty convincing but they could right it off as a hallucination- a scientific anomaly. 4. So basically nothing can scare or persuade a person into faith because it is up to the person to believe So the final question: God can do all things of course but when I pray for God to open the ears/eyes of those who frequently deny his existence is it actually that I must pray for the person must open their own ears? Could it be that God is always standing with arms outstretched, whispering words and some people just plug their ears, stamp their feet and sing really loudly to block things out? Thus the weight is on us to accept him. We could pray to God to unplug their ears but God gives them freewill so he does not unplug their ears. He could poor out many trials and raise a person from the dead but if their ears are plugged they will not listen. A person has to believe in God to be saved so the first thing we have to do is accept him fully. He gives us free will to not do believe in him. Since the rich man might have been a casual Christian or lukewarm Christian could it be that one can have partially blocked ears in that they choose to hear some words and not others? What of the fate of the lukewarm Christian? Are my thoughts correct? Am I thinking this straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted July 9, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,993 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,691 Content Per Day: 11.75 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 9, 2013 Luke 16:27-31 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers7—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have qMoses and the Prophets; rlet them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, sfather Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear qMoses and the Prophets,tneither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolutionist90 Posted July 9, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 460 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/26/1990 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 Luke 16:27-31 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers7—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have qMoses and the Prophets; rlet them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, sfather Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear qMoses and the Prophets,tneither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ” Did I state the scripture wrong? I used the King James version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Since the rich man might have been a casual Christian or lukewarm Christian could it be that one can have partially blocked ears in that they choose to hear some words and not others? What of the fate of the lukewarm Christian? Revelation 3 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 9, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,398 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,570 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I might be reading more into this than it should be but in regards to Luke 16:27-31: 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment 29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. The whole story begins at 16:19 My question is in regards to those who are non-believers and I guess what one would call lukewarm Christians are non-believers. We do not really know if the rich man was a believer or not but I do want to focus on the last phrase in regards to the ability of a person to change. Belief is not determined by what we say but what we do... James Matt 7:21-23 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' NKJV 1. Could the phrase be saying that if a person does not believe and closes their ears (thus not hearing Moses or the prophets) that even the rising of the dead will not work? Yes because you would be believing in power not Person... 2. Because a person needs faith to be able to believe in the unseen the viewing of the dead person coming back to life would not have any affect because they would right if off as a anomaly? basically God 'Who 'IS' Spirit can only be approach in 'Spirit and Truth' ! Jn 4:24 3. I think about this in terms of atheist who sees everything from a scientific format or basically whatever they can see. I would think the rising of a dead person would be pretty convincing but they could right it off as a hallucination- a scientific anomaly. The Word of God forms the pathway to God- philosophy, science, all other educational routes must line up with His Word - for it is what formed them! Jn 1 4. So basically nothing can scare or persuade a person into faith because it is up to the person to believe God says we have the knowledge of good and evil Gen 3:22 I believe this to be the intuitive conscience man is now born with else how can this witness below be effective to render without excuse? Rom 1:20 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, NKJV So the final question: God can do all things of course but when I pray for God to open the ears/eyes of those who frequently deny his existence is it actually that I must pray for the person must open their own ears? Could it be that God is always standing with arms outstretched, whispering words and some people just plug their ears, stamp their feet and sing really loudly to block things out? Thus the weight is on us to accept him. We could pray to God to unplug their ears but God gives them freewill so he does not unplug their ears. He could poor out many trials and raise a person from the dead but if their ears are plugged they will not listen. 2 Sam 14:14 Lam 3:33 Ezek 18:23 Ezek 18:32 Hos 11:8 Luke 15:20-32 1 Tim 2:4 2 Peter 3:9 A person has to believe in God to be saved so the first thing we have to do is accept him fully. He gives us free will to not do believe in him. Sovereignty and freewill has divided the family many times! It is logical tension unresolved so that we who lay aside ourselves must wait upon God and not fight with each other ... over non-resolvable issues - it is an obedience to wait upon God as it is past our ability to find out! Since the rich man might have been a casual Christian or lukewarm Christian could it be that one can have partially blocked ears in that they choose to hear some words and not others? What of the fate of the lukewarm Christian? A terminology or designation may be applied to anything but when applied to p/Person you will have Christ or antichrist! 1 John 2:19 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. NKJV Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widor1 Posted July 9, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 140 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 105 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/20/1987 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I might be reading more into this than it should be but in regards to Luke 16:27-31: 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment 29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. The whole story begins at 16:19 My question is in regards to those who are non-believers and I guess what one would call lukewarm Christians. We do not really know if the rich man was a believer or not but I do want to focus on the last phrase in regards to the ability of a person to change. 1. Could the phrase be saying that if a person does not believe and closes their ears (thus not hearing Moses or the prophets) that even the rising of the dead will not work? 2. Because a person needs faith to be able to believe in the unseen the viewing of the dead person coming back to life would not have any affect because they would right if off as a anomaly? 3. I think about this in terms of atheist who sees everything from a scientific format or basically whatever they can see. I would think the rising of a dead person would be pretty convincing but they could right it off as a hallucination- a scientific anomaly. 4. So basically nothing can scare or persuade a person into faith because it is up to the person to believe So the final question: God can do all things of course but when I pray for God to open the ears/eyes of those who frequently deny his existence is it actually that I must pray for the person must open their own ears? Could it be that God is always standing with arms outstretched, whispering words and some people just plug their ears, stamp their feet and sing really loudly to block things out? Thus the weight is on us to accept him. We could pray to God to unplug their ears but God gives them freewill so he does not unplug their ears. He could poor out many trials and raise a person from the dead but if their ears are plugged they will not listen. - A person has to believe in God to be saved so the first thing we have to do is accept him fully. He gives us free will to not do believe in him. Since the rich man might have been a casual Christian or lukewarm Christian could it be that one can have partially blocked ears in that they choose to hear some words and not others? What of the fate of the lukewarm Christian? Are my thoughts correct? Am I thinking this straight. 1. 9And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' 10"Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed. Isaiah 6:9-10 Think about this... the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for years and years, while seeing God work miracles the entire time; and yet, they still grumbled, complained, and sinned all over the place. We also see in the gospels too that Jesus came to earth and preached the Word, performed miracles, etc, and yet people still did not believe. If people make the decision to close their heart from God and ignore the Spirit, someone "rising from the dead" isn't going to open their ears/eyes. Only the Holy Spirit will do that. 2/3. Again, Jesus rose from the dead, and people still did not believe. He also said: 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John 5:46-47 4. Yes and no. The Holy Spirit can change a person's heart, and He may use people to help with this. But people cannot be transformed on their own, or led to belief without guidance from the Spirit. Final question: Pray that God opens their ears/eyes/heart. God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 7:3) multiple times before the Israelites were allowed to leave Egypt. God's timing is always perfect, even if we do not always understand why. Lukewarm Christians: I think man's post says it all. If one has not accepted Christ as Lord, and is not heeding the Spirit, is not being transformed...are they saved? It's not our decision to make. All we can do is point to Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandalf Posted July 9, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 377 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 29 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/28/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 9, 2013 Maybe the "rich man" was an committed rich believer, who despised the poor! Plenty of them around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widor1 Posted July 9, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 140 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 105 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/20/1987 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Maybe the "rich man" was an committed rich believer, who despised the poor! Plenty of them around. 20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Could it be that God is always standing with arms outstretched, whispering words and some people just plug their ears, stamp their feet and sing really loudly to block things out? Revelation 3 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 2 Peter 3 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coheir Posted July 10, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,458 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 729 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1950 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I might be reading more into this than it should be but in regards to Luke 16:27-31: 27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment 29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. The whole story begins at 16:19 My question is in regards to those who are non-believers and I guess what one would call lukewarm Christians. We do not really know if the rich man was a believer or not but I do want to focus on the last phrase in regards to the ability of a person to change. 1. Could the phrase be saying that if a person does not believe and closes their ears (thus not hearing Moses or the prophets) that even the rising of the dead will not work? 2. Because a person needs faith to be able to believe in the unseen the viewing of the dead person coming back to life would not have any affect because they would right if off as a anomaly? 3. I think about this in terms of atheist who sees everything from a scientific format or basically whatever they can see. I would think the rising of a dead person would be pretty convincing but they could right it off as a hallucination- a scientific anomaly. 4. So basically nothing can scare or persuade a person into faith because it is up to the person to believe So the final question: God can do all things of course but when I pray for God to open the ears/eyes of those who frequently deny his existence is it actually that I must pray for the person must open their own ears? Could it be that God is always standing with arms outstretched, whispering words and some people just plug their ears, stamp their feet and sing really loudly to block things out? Thus the weight is on us to accept him. We could pray to God to unplug their ears but God gives them freewill so he does not unplug their ears. He could poor out many trials and raise a person from the dead but if their ears are plugged they will not listen. A person has to believe in God to be saved so the first thing we have to do is accept him fully. He gives us free will to not do believe in him. Since the rich man might have been a casual Christian or lukewarm Christian could it be that one can have partially blocked ears in that they choose to hear some words and not others? What of the fate of the lukewarm Christian? Are my thoughts correct? Am I thinking this straight. Before Jesus came to earth the whole world had Moses and the prophets as a way to Heaven ( God ). Many people came and accepted this way ( using Moses and the prophets ( old law ) that were not Jewish or Israelites. Many were Jews and Israelites. You are right we do not know if the rich man was a believer and it does not matter that we do not know. For many centuries before Christ came to earth anyone on earth had the chance to believe in Moses and the prophets many chose not to. During the time Jesus was on earth he began to teach a new way way ( you now can go straight to Jesus and be saved without most of the old law hindering you. ) In a since they had what we have ( one way to heaven ). So once a person dies we believe it is to late to choose the right way whether it be Moses and the prophets of old law or today we can go straight to Jesus Christ. Jesus was telling the rich man his 5 brothers already have a way to escape what the rich man was experiencing and if they would not believe in the old law they will joining him. Jesus already knew he was going to be killed and he would rise again and many people would not believe he had risen from the dead. same scenario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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