Guest Butero Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Why not? I hear people make that claim, and I don't agree. I need but one verse to tell me something to believe it. No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated! I could make the same claim concerning the way you come up with your doctrine. You don't like something, so you claim it means something other than what scripture actually says. If I did that throughout the Word of God, I certainly could come up with strange doctrines. Where it says that God so loved the World, I could simply say it really means he hated the world, or that world means the planet and not the human race. I have no reason to accept anything you have said, because in some cases it contradicts the plain meaning of the text, and in others, you simply can't prove your point. It is nothing but theories you have devised in your own mind, like the notion Paul was discouraging speaking in tongues, when he did no such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) It is my opinion that individuals who have the mindset of picking and choosing what they find convenient in the Scriptures, actually have their own religion going on, because it certainly isn't Christianity. A form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. I do not read the scripture per se, but by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Scripture was there as a matter of fact before Jesus Christ. Yet, He sent the Holy Spirit to help us in discerning the truth. There can be only one truth. Sounds like you are trying to say that a spirit, that you take to be the Holy Spirit, is leading you in a manner that does not involve actually sequentially reading or studying the Bible. Apparently, this method of isolating passages out of sequence and context has led you to deny the supernatural working of God in the lives of believers and has led you to believe that you should share your findings, as you have done, in threads you have started. Thank you for explaining how you come to the conclusions that you have represented in this forum. Well, let's take a closer look at your motives...as you have expressed them It is my concern to prevent people from looking back and bring back the worst conditons of Corinth now. The worst conditions in Corinth was the tolerance of grevious sin. Did you miss that? Here it is: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! (I Cor 5) So, it is actually sexual immorality and pride that is behind the that letter...as far as the meetings went, Paul gave instruction on how to keep things orderly and said FORBID NOT TO SPEAK IN TONGUES. However, you believe, that a spirit has told you to say the opposite of what Paul wrote. See, I am calling it 'a' spirit, because the Holy Spirit would not ever say the opposite of what scripture states. That is the fundamental belief of a true believers, not all kinds of developments and assumptions based on carnal mindset. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is very fundamental to believers. The world is full of demonic strongholds and evil attitudes. Without the restraint of the Spirit of God, we would all be overtaken and the world would be destroyed...which will ultimately happen when God removes His hand and allows and brings the final curtain down on the blue planet. What you are actually presenting, is a form of godliness. You are denying the power of God both at work in the lives of believers and as protection against the power of the devil that is at work in the world. I am sorry you have been persuaded by unbelief. I pray God opens your eyes and blesses you in ways that up to now, you have so far refused. The trouble is people are not differentiating between person's 'spirit' and the 'Spirit'. Even when shown, they turn a deaf ear and cannot see! They think even the personal prayer addressed to God by their spiritis are going to be interrupted by the groans of the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit is not at the beck and call of people to work for them for what is their relationship with God. That reminds of a joke: A guy inserted a coin onto a vending machine for coke. The empty cup did not drop down because of some fault in the mechanism. The coke poured down only to be drained out of the pipe in the machine. The frustrated guy exclaims, "Wow, this machine even drinks for you!" Edited August 19, 2013 by GoldenEagle <<< To fix quoting... >>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 Why not? I hear people make that claim, and I don't agree. I need but one verse to tell me something to believe it. No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated! I could make the same claim concerning the way you come up with your doctrine. You don't like something, so you claim it means something other than what scripture actually says. If I did that throughout the Word of God, I certainly could come up with strange doctrines. Where it says that God so loved the World, I could simply say it really means he hated the world, or that world means the planet and not the human race. I have no reason to accept anything you have said, because in some cases it contradicts the plain meaning of the text, and in others, you simply can't prove your point. It is nothing but theories you have devised in your own mind, like the notion Paul was discouraging speaking in tongues, when he did no such thing. The answer is very simple. Paul desired greater gifts to be sought! (1 Corinthians 12:31) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 When in doubt, it is better to look for other sources in the Scripture to get clarification. There is no source in the entire Bible to indicate that the Holy Spirit groans or prays on behalf of a person in his prayerful address to God.One cannot build a castle of theology on a single small stone piece! Why not? I hear people make that claim, and I don't agree. I need but one verse to tell me something to believe it. No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated! I could make the same claim concerning the way you come up with your doctrine. You don't like something, so you claim it means something other than what scripture actually says. If I did that throughout the Word of God, I certainly could come up with strange doctrines. Where it says that God so loved the World, I could simply say it really means he hated the world, or that world means the planet and not the human race. I have no reason to accept anything you have said, because in some cases it contradicts the plain meaning of the text, and in others, you simply can't prove your point. It is nothing but theories you have devised in your own mind, like the notion Paul was discouraging speaking in tongues, when he did no such thing. The answer is very simple. Paul desired greater gifts to be sought! (1 Corinthians 12:31) Right, but he isn't discouraging them from seeking or using the gifts. But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet I shew unto you a more excellent way. 1 Corinthians 12:31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 19, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 Right, but he isn't discouraging them from seeking or using the gifts. Sorry, you appear to ignore the role of the Holy Spirit and trying to understand the plain meaning of the text instead of its intrinsic spiritual value. When someone says greater there should be something lower than that. When Paul says greater, he is discouraging to go for lower-end things. That is obvious. But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet I shew unto you a more excellent way. 1 Corinthians 12:31 Notice how Paul suddenly jumps from gift to the fruit of the Spirit. Here he advises the top best, that is, love! The last one listed in the fruit is self-control. This is a must compared to the end gifts mentioned, that is, speaking in tongue and interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 19, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,377 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,555 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 19, 2013 A few people seem to interpret this verse as the Holy Spirit groaning on their behalf in their prayers to God. I cannot accept this because mortal men can make the Holy Spirit to grieve by their wickedness. The Holy Spirit can make a person to utter His words.But no person can make the Holy Spirit to groan. Can we order anything to the Holy Spirit? To understand this we need to look at the preceeding verses in the same chapter, 22 & 23. In these Paul speaks of the whole creation groaning and including ourselves. Therefore, basically people who are praying to God may groan with anxiety or worries too deep to express in words! When they do that, the Holy Spirit will understand what goes on in their mind and heart and intercedes on their behalf to explain that to God. It our personal relationship and responsibility with God. Paul also indicates that in 2 Corithians 5:4 that is we who groan. Some additional verses that could be considered are: Exodus 2:24; Psalm 5:1. Paul also says in 1 Corinthians that it is his spirit that prays to God in an unknown tongue so also others: 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14 Your interpretation is wrong, as it is contrary to what the verse in Romans says. Lets examine it closely. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26,27 The passage itself tells us it is the Holy Spirit who is making intercession with groanings. To accept what you said, I have to reject what the scripture itself says. The understanding is the breakdown of human language to form proper request for the need-> apparent in the urgings of The Holy Spirit within us... because of this inability in us God councils within His Godhead the needs and arrangement of answers to the good of all yet that communication appears to us as groaning... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 19, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2013 When in doubt, it is better to look for other sources in the Scripture to get clarification. There is no source in the entire Bible to indicate that the Holy Spirit groans or prays on behalf of a person in his prayerful address to God.One cannot build a castle of theology on a single small stone piece! Why not? I hear people make that claim, and I don't agree. I need but one verse to tell me something to believe it. No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated! I could make the same claim concerning the way you come up with your doctrine. You don't like something, so you claim it means something other than what scripture actually says. If I did that throughout the Word of God, I certainly could come up with strange doctrines. Where it says that God so loved the World, I could simply say it really means he hated the world, or that world means the planet and not the human race. I have no reason to accept anything you have said, because in some cases it contradicts the plain meaning of the text, and in others, you simply can't prove your point. It is nothing but theories you have devised in your own mind, like the notion Paul was discouraging speaking in tongues, when he did no such thing. The answer is very simple. Paul desired greater gifts to be sought! (1 Corinthians 12:31) Question... KT you're saying we shouldn't base our theology on one verse of the Bible in red and here you're doing the same thing orange with 1 Cor. 12:31. How does this make sense? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted August 19, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,136 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2013 I see a lot of squabbling. Tongues still exist, I don't think they are used as at 'Pentecost" Acts 2:4 - they began to speak in other tongues (plural). Jews who did not speak Hebrew now heard the Gospel Message in their own tongue/language. The displaying/usage of tongues has changed to some degree. The thing is that one who does speak or pray in tongues is not more or less Spiritual than one who does not speak in tongues. It is a gift; a major one of some, or a lessor gift to others. Don't knock someones gift Try to use the gift or gifts that God has given you. There is no superiority in the gifts (except the gift of prophesy is to be desired more), but which gift or gifts is/are dominate in a persons life. For these are your strengths. You have them for a reason. For me, I would not get any satisfaction of walking into a Church speaking Latin or Mandarin. Unless there was an interpreter for me. The HS must intercede for us, whether we speak in tongues or not. He is a perfect one, we are not, thus He does intercede for us with groanings for us, because we really do not know how to pray adequately. He is our helper, our comforter. Let Him do His job. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 19, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 A few people seem to interpret this verse as the Holy Spirit groaning on their behalf in their prayers to God. I cannot accept this because mortal men can make the Holy Spirit to grieve by their wickedness. The Holy Spirit can make a person to utter His words.But no person can make the Holy Spirit to groan. Can we order anything to the Holy Spirit? To understand this we need to look at the preceeding verses in the same chapter, 22 & 23. In these Paul speaks of the whole creation groaning and including ourselves. Therefore, basically people who are praying to God may groan with anxiety or worries too deep to express in words! When they do that, the Holy Spirit will understand what goes on in their mind and heart and intercedes on their behalf to explain that to God. It our personal relationship and responsibility with God. Paul also indicates that in 2 Corithians 5:4 that is we who groan. Some additional verses that could be considered are: Exodus 2:24; Psalm 5:1. Paul also says in 1 Corinthians that it is his spirit that prays to God in an unknown tongue so also others: 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14 Your interpretation is wrong, as it is contrary to what the verse in Romans says. Lets examine it closely. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26,27 The passage itself tells us it is the Holy Spirit who is making intercession with groanings. To accept what you said, I have to reject what the scripture itself says. The understanding is the breakdown of human language to form proper request for the need-> apparent in the urgings of The Holy Spirit within us... because of this inability in us God councils within His Godhead the needs and arrangement of answers to the good of all yet that communication appears to us as groaning... Love, Steven Considering the preceedings verses wherein groanings are attributed to created beings like animals and people(vs. 22 & 23), our interpretation should be groanings of us that we cannot express in words. Do you think the Holy Spirit will be speechless like mortal men? That is a preposterous thinking, I suppose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 19, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 When in doubt, it is better to look for other sources in the Scripture to get clarification. There is no source in the entire Bible to indicate that the Holy Spirit groans or prays on behalf of a person in his prayerful address to God.One cannot build a castle of theology on a single small stone piece! Why not? I hear people make that claim, and I don't agree. I need but one verse to tell me something to believe it. No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated! I could make the same claim concerning the way you come up with your doctrine. You don't like something, so you claim it means something other than what scripture actually says. If I did that throughout the Word of God, I certainly could come up with strange doctrines. Where it says that God so loved the World, I could simply say it really means he hated the world, or that world means the planet and not the human race. I have no reason to accept anything you have said, because in some cases it contradicts the plain meaning of the text, and in others, you simply can't prove your point. It is nothing but theories you have devised in your own mind, like the notion Paul was discouraging speaking in tongues, when he did no such thing. The answer is very simple. Paul desired greater gifts to be sought! (1 Corinthians 12:31) Question... KT you're saying we shouldn't base our theology on one verse of the Bible in red and here you're doing the same thing orange with 1 Cor. 12:31. How does this make sense? God bless, GE There is a lot of weight behind the one I have quoted. My OP is not based on one verse against another. In the course of discussion involving several verses, I have indicated one verse that may answer the particual question that was asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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