Knowingtruth Posted August 17, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2013 A few people seem to interpret this verse as the Holy Spirit groaning on their behalf in their prayers to God. I cannot accept this because mortal men can make the Holy Spirit to grieve by their wickedness. The Holy Spirit can make a person to utter His words.But no person can make the Holy Spirit to groan. Can we order anything to the Holy Spirit? To understand this we need to look at the preceeding verses in the same chapter, 22 & 23. In these Paul speaks of the whole creation groaning and including ourselves. Therefore, basically people who are praying to God may groan with anxiety or worries too deep to express in words! When they do that, the Holy Spirit will understand what goes on in their mind and heart and intercedes on their behalf to explain that to God. It our personal relationship and responsibility with God. Paul also indicates that in 2 Corithians 5:4 that is we who groan. Some additional verses that could be considered are: Exodus 2:24; Psalm 5:1. Paul also says in 1 Corinthians that it is his spirit that prays to God in an unknown tongue so also others: 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted August 17, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2013 (edited) 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. Seems clear enough. If you can't accept it, then hey, don't. Your explanation just doesn't actually say what scripture says, so... You don't believe in tongues and now you don't believe what is plainly written as highlighted above. It seems you have a difficulty in believing portions of scripture. Why do you expect others to join you in that disbelief? I am genuinely puzzled why, from time to time, certain people join this or any other forum, with the apparently marked and express purpose of tongues bashing and basically disallowing for pretty much anything supernatural. Personally, I find the virgin birth harder to believe in...or possibly someone being raised from the dead on the third day. I'm not being sarcastic. I'm serious. Edited August 19, 2013 by GoldenEagle <<< Formatting... Scripture differentiation. >>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 A few people seem to interpret this verse as the Holy Spirit groaning on their behalf in their prayers to God. I cannot accept this because mortal men can make the Holy Spirit to grieve by their wickedness. The Holy Spirit can make a person to utter His words.But no person can make the Holy Spirit to groan. Can we order anything to the Holy Spirit? To understand this we need to look at the preceeding verses in the same chapter, 22 & 23. In these Paul speaks of the whole creation groaning and including ourselves. Therefore, basically people who are praying to God may groan with anxiety or worries too deep to express in words! When they do that, the Holy Spirit will understand what goes on in their mind and heart and intercedes on their behalf to explain that to God. It our personal relationship and responsibility with God. Paul also indicates that in 2 Corithians 5:4 that is we who groan. Some additional verses that could be considered are: Exodus 2:24; Psalm 5:1. Paul also says in 1 Corinthians that it is his spirit that prays to God in an unknown tongue so also others: 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14 Your interpretation is wrong, as it is contrary to what the verse in Romans says. Lets examine it closely. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26,27 The passage itself tells us it is the Holy Spirit who is making intercession with groanings. To accept what you said, I have to reject what the scripture itself says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted August 17, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 55 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted August 17, 2013 Please rea A few people seem to interpret this verse as the Holy Spirit groaning on their behalf in their prayers to God. I cannot accept this because mortal men can make the Holy Spirit to grieve by their wickedness. The Holy Spirit can make a person to utter His words.But no person can make the Holy Spirit to groan. Can we order anything to the Holy Spirit? To understand this we need to look at the preceeding verses in the same chapter, 22 & 23. In these Paul speaks of the whole creation groaning and including ourselves. Therefore, basically people who are praying to God may groan with anxiety or worries too deep to express in words! When they do that, the Holy Spirit will understand what goes on in their mind and heart and intercedes on their behalf to explain that to God. It our personal relationship and responsibility with God. Paul also indicates that in 2 Corithians 5:4 that is we who groan. Some additional verses that could be considered are: Exodus 2:24; Psalm 5:1. Paul also says in 1 Corinthians that it is his spirit that prays to God in an unknown tongue so also others: 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14 Please read the sermon of C.H. Spurgeon, you will get all the answers you're looking for: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1532.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 Please rea A few people seem to interpret this verse as the Holy Spirit groaning on their behalf in their prayers to God. I cannot accept this because mortal men can make the Holy Spirit to grieve by their wickedness. The Holy Spirit can make a person to utter His words.But no person can make the Holy Spirit to groan. Can we order anything to the Holy Spirit? To understand this we need to look at the preceeding verses in the same chapter, 22 & 23. In these Paul speaks of the whole creation groaning and including ourselves. Therefore, basically people who are praying to God may groan with anxiety or worries too deep to express in words! When they do that, the Holy Spirit will understand what goes on in their mind and heart and intercedes on their behalf to explain that to God. It our personal relationship and responsibility with God. Paul also indicates that in 2 Corithians 5:4 that is we who groan. Some additional verses that could be considered are: Exodus 2:24; Psalm 5:1. Paul also says in 1 Corinthians that it is his spirit that prays to God in an unknown tongue so also others: 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14 Please read the sermon of C.H. Spurgeon, you will get all the answers you're looking for: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1532.htm Thank you for posting this link. I have gone through that, and he basically endorses my opinion I believe underlined. Here are the excerpts: ... II. Our second subject is THE PRAYER WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT INSPIRES, or that part of prayer which is especially and peculiarly the work of the Spirit of God. The text says, "The Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." It is not the Spirit that groans, but we that groan; but as I have shown you, the Spirit excited the emotion which causes us to groan. It is clear then the prayers which are indited in us by the spirit of God are those which arise from our inmost soul. A man's heart is moved when he groans. A groan is a matter about which there is no hypocrisy. A groan cometh not from the lips, but from the heart. A groan then is a part of prayer which we owe to the Holy Ghost, and the same is true of all the prayer which wells up from the deep fountains of our inner life. The prophet cried, "My bowels, my bowels, I am pained at my very heart: my heart maketh a noise in me." This deep ground-swell of desire, this tidal motion of the life-floods is caused by the Holy Spirit. His work is never superficial, but always deep and inward. Such prayers will rise within us when the mind is far too troubled to let us speak. We know not what we should pray for as we ought, and then it is that we groan, or utter some other inarticulate sound. Hezekiah said, "like a crane or a swallow did I chatter." The psalmist said, "I am so troubled that I cannot I have roared by reason of the disquietness of my heart"; but he added, "Lord, all my desire is before thee; and my groaning is not hid from thee." The sighing of the prisoner surely cometh up into the ears of the Lord. There is real prayer in these "groanings that cannot be uttered." It is the power of the Holy Ghost in us which creates all real prayer, even that which takes the form of a groan because the mind is incapable, by reason of its bewilderment and grief, of clothing its emotion in words. I pray you never think lightly of the supplications of your anguish. Rather judge that such prayers are like Jabez, of whom it is written, that "he was more honourable than his brethren, because his mother bare him with sorrow." That which is thrown up from the depth of the soul, when it is stirred with a terrible tempest, is more precious than pearl or coral, for it is the intercession of the Holy Spirit. ... But it may be, beloved, that we groan because we are conscious of the littleness of our desire, and the narrowness of our faith. The trial, too. may seem too mean to pray about. I have known what it is to feel as if I could not pray about a certain matter, and yet I have been obliged to groan about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. Seems clear enough. If you can't accept it, then hey, don't. Your explanation just doesn't actually say what scripture says, so... I do not read the scripture per se, but by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Scripture was there as a matter of fact before Jesus Christ. Yet, He sent the Holy Spirit to help us in discerning the truth. There can be only one truth. You don't believe in tongues and now you don't believe what is plainly written as highlighted above. It seems you have a difficulty in believing portions of scripture. Why do you expect others to join you in that disbelief? I am genuinely puzzled why, from time to time, certain people join this or any other forum, with the apparently marked and express purpose of tongues bashing and basically disallowing for pretty much anything supernatural. It is my concern to prevent people from looking back and bring back the worst conditons of Corinth now. Personally, I find the virgin birth harder to believe in...or possibly someone being raised from the dead on the third day. That is the fundamental belief of a true believers, not all kinds of developments and assumptions based on carnal mindset. I'm not being sarcastic. I'm serious. Me too! Edited August 19, 2013 by GoldenEagle <<< Formatting and quotes. >>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 A few people seem to interpret this verse as the Holy Spirit groaning on their behalf in their prayers to God. I cannot accept this because mortal men can make the Holy Spirit to grieve by their wickedness. The Holy Spirit can make a person to utter His words.But no person can make the Holy Spirit to groan. Can we order anything to the Holy Spirit? To understand this we need to look at the preceeding verses in the same chapter, 22 & 23. In these Paul speaks of the whole creation groaning and including ourselves. Therefore, basically people who are praying to God may groan with anxiety or worries too deep to express in words! When they do that, the Holy Spirit will understand what goes on in their mind and heart and intercedes on their behalf to explain that to God. It our personal relationship and responsibility with God. Paul also indicates that in 2 Corithians 5:4 that is we who groan. Some additional verses that could be considered are: Exodus 2:24; Psalm 5:1. Paul also says in 1 Corinthians that it is his spirit that prays to God in an unknown tongue so also others: 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14 ]Your interpretation is wrong, as it is contrary to what the verse in Romans says. Lets examine it closely. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26,27 The passage itself tells us it is the Holy Spirit who is making intercession with groanings. To accept what you said, I have to reject what the scripture itself says. When in doubt, it is better to look for other sources in the Scripture to get clarification. There is no source in the entire Bible to indicate that the Holy Spirit groans or prays on behalf of a person in his prayerful address to God.One cannot build a castle of theology on a single small stone piece! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 A few people seem to interpret this verse as the Holy Spirit groaning on their behalf in their prayers to God. I cannot accept this because mortal men can make the Holy Spirit to grieve by their wickedness. The Holy Spirit can make a person to utter His words.But no person can make the Holy Spirit to groan. Can we order anything to the Holy Spirit? To understand this we need to look at the preceeding verses in the same chapter, 22 & 23. In these Paul speaks of the whole creation groaning and including ourselves. Therefore, basically people who are praying to God may groan with anxiety or worries too deep to express in words! When they do that, the Holy Spirit will understand what goes on in their mind and heart and intercedes on their behalf to explain that to God. It our personal relationship and responsibility with God. Paul also indicates that in 2 Corithians 5:4 that is we who groan. Some additional verses that could be considered are: Exodus 2:24; Psalm 5:1. Paul also says in 1 Corinthians that it is his spirit that prays to God in an unknown tongue so also others: 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14 ]Your interpretation is wrong, as it is contrary to what the verse in Romans says. Lets examine it closely. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26,27 The passage itself tells us it is the Holy Spirit who is making intercession with groanings. To accept what you said, I have to reject what the scripture itself says. When in doubt, it is better to look for other sources in the Scripture to get clarification. There is no source in the entire Bible to indicate that the Holy Spirit groans or prays on behalf of a person in his prayerful address to God.One cannot build a castle of theology on a single small stone piece! Why not? I hear people make that claim, and I don't agree. I need but one verse to tell me something to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. Seems clear enough. If you can't accept it, then hey, don't. Your explanation just doesn't actually say what scripture says, so... I do not read the scripture per se, but by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Scripture was there as a matter of fact before Jesus Christ. Yet, He sent the Holy Spirit to help us in discerning the truth. There can be only one truth. You don't believe in tongues and now you don't believe what is plainly written as highlighted above. It seems you have a difficulty in believing portions of scripture. Why do you expect others to join you in that disbelief? I am genuinely puzzled why, from time to time, certain people join this or any other forum, with the apparently marked and express purpose of tongues bashing and basically disallowing for pretty much anything supernatural. It is my concern to prevent people from looking back and bring back the worst conditons of Corinth now. Personally, I find the virgin birth harder to believe in...or possibly someone being raised from the dead on the third day. That is the fundamental belief of a true believers, not all kinds of developments and assumptions based on carnal mindset. I'm not being sarcastic. I'm serious. Me too! It is my opinion that individuals who have the mindset of picking and choosing what they find convenient in the Scriptures, actually have their own religion going on, because it certainly isn't Christianity. A form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. I do not read the scripture per se, but by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Scripture was there as a matter of fact before Jesus Christ. Yet, He sent the Holy Spirit to help us in discerning the truth. There can be only one truth. Sounds like you are trying to say that a spirit, that you take to be the Holy Spirit, is leading you in a manner that does not involve actually sequentially reading or studying the Bible. Apparently, this method of isolating passages out of sequence and context has led you to deny the supernatural working of God in the lives of believers and has led you to believe that you should share your findings, as you have done, in threads you have started. Thank you for explaining how you come to the conclusions that you have represented in this forum. Well, let's take a closer look at your motives...as you have expressed them It is my concern to prevent people from looking back and bring back the worst conditons of Corinth now. The worst conditions in Corinth was the tolerance of grevious sin. Did you miss that? Here it is: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! (I Cor 5) So, it is actually sexual immorality and pride that is behind the that letter...as far as the meetings went, Paul gave instruction on how to keep things orderly and said FORBID NOT TO SPEAK IN TONGUES. However, you believe, that a spirit has told you to say the opposite of what Paul wrote. See, I am calling it 'a' spirit, because the Holy Spirit would not ever say the opposite of what scripture states. That is the fundamental belief of a true believers, not all kinds of developments and assumptions based on carnal mindset. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is very fundamental to believers. The world is full of demonic strongholds and evil attitudes. Without the restraint of the Spirit of God, we would all be overtaken and the world would be destroyed...which will ultimately happen when God removes His hand and allows and brings the final curtain down on the blue planet. What you are actually presenting, is a form of godliness. You are denying the power of God both at work in the lives of believers and as protection against the power of the devil that is at work in the world. I am sorry you have been persuaded by unbelief. I pray God opens your eyes and blesses you in ways that up to now, you have so far refused. Edited August 19, 2013 by GoldenEagle <<< Formatting and quotes... >>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowingtruth Posted August 18, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 625 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 226 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/15/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 Why not? I hear people make that claim, and I don't agree. I need but one verse to tell me something to believe it. No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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