Floatingaxe Posted October 3, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Whatever God wants = He gets. That isn't true, either. God's justice calls for the punishment and banishment of evil forever. He desires that all men be saved, but He isn't going to see that desire fulfilled. 1 Timothy 2:4 (NKJV) 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Luke 13:23-25 (NIV) 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 4, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,194 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,471 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 4, 2013 DRS81 stated this on Sept 30 so I just copied and pasted from above What does scripture say about creating all things, knowing all things, but allowing all things to come to pass. My debate is not that God doesn't force his will on people and that people have a choice. No, my debate is that if God already knows who is going to hell when he creates them in mothers womb then why create them. Why in the world would you create them if you know they will suffer in hell for eternity. Hell is hot and painful. (sigh) Why why why why!! I definitly see God as an all loving God who can only do good, but I just can't seem to get past the why. Why he creates unbelievers destined to hell. Again my debate is about God's omniscience. It's not that he allows people to do something wrong, but he ALREADY KNOWS they will not accept his salvation and will go to hell. He ALREADY KNOWS before he creates them. God's omniscience is a powerful thing!!! In the Infinite of God there is room for all things possible.... as this is only of God's experience, this infinite, and we beginning in Him have an endless journey ahead of us we must rely in the Cross of Our Lord which witnesses a love unbounded by the fetters of what we ourselves have began in... We are assured whatever the reason of this apparent reality of question, in our present view, will be dissolved completely when the fullness of this sacrifice of God is given to us! But the eternal necessity is to bring about a bride for His Son... This The Father's accomplished purpose must weigh in with unity in that purpose Jn 17... as the schism will not be resolved as hell shall exist eternally as Heaven! Very well may be that in the infinite reality that God alone as The One Who walks as such with no beginning reasons out the worth of His ways for us to accept in the perfection of His Being... Love, Steven 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HisG Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Do you shuffle blame onto God? No I don't shuffle blame anywhere. I'm just trying to understand God's ways of doing things. For example, take my dad for instance. My dad was a good father and raised me right and gave me a place to live and eat. My dad then grows old, dies and goes to hell. Was my dad's only purpose in life..fatherhood without God? God is creating all these people throughout time, giving them good lives..allowing them to live their atheist lives for 90 years, then they die and go to hell. What's the point of that??? It baffles me. It just does. This is where I'm at in my walk. I'm jumping in here, I have had those questions about my dad too but ultimately my dad made his own choices during his lifetime. I see God as a parent who warns a child not to do certain things that will lead to disaster but the child is determined to go ahead anyway regardless. And the child suffers the consequences of those decisions. Trust me, the Father mourns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoc Posted October 11, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 153 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/14/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 11, 2013 (edited) We stand at the bottom of the stair case discussing among ourselves the view at the top. We say it's raining down hear and its gloomy, but the man at the top of the stair case speaks and say I can see both down there where you are and up hear where I'm at and its all fine, It just looks that way because you are down there with a limited view. Trust me. Edited October 11, 2013 by Enoc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 We stand at the bottom of the stair case discussing among ourselves the view at the top. We say it's raining down hear and its gloomy, but the man at the top of the stair case speaks and say I can see both down there where you are and up hear where I'm at and its all fine, It just looks that way because you are down there with a limited view. Trust me. Excellent viewpoint! I trust that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall7 Posted October 20, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,385 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 491 Days Won: 5 Joined: 04/25/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2013 What does scripture say about creating all things, knowing all things, but allowing all things to come to pass. My debate is not that God doesn't force his will on people and that people have a choice. No, my debate is that if God already knows who is going to hell when he creates them in mothers womb then why create them. Why in the world would you create them if you know they will suffer in hell for eternity. Hell is hot and painful. (sigh) Why why why why!! I definitly see God as an all loving God who can only do good, but I just can't seem to get past the why. Why he creates unbelievers destined to hell. Again my debate is about God's omniscience. It's not that he allows people to do something wrong, but he ALREADY KNOWS they will not accept his salvation and will go to hell. He ALREADY KNOWS before he creates them. God's omniscience is a powerful thing!!! Perhaps because of the butterfly effect? If an atheist gave birth to a child who would become a Christian in the future, and the butterfly effect of this "one" Christian would eventually bring thousands to the Lord in the future, wouldn't it be worth loosing one life in order to be able to save thousands of others? Just a thought... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 20, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,194 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,471 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Whatever God wants = He gets. Unless God doesn't want to get everything He wants... the Son wanted another way in perfect humanity in garden but yielded to The Father... The Father not wanting any to perish but there will be by individual choice.... We are always wanting closure on An Unbounded Being I AM that I AM... 'God' >< that binding is error in itself! Total commitment to the understanding of His Word requires a waiting in areas where God has already gone out of sight... example: sovereignty and choice by created Ezek 33:11 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? KJV Eph 1:9 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: KJV evaluating these truths we see God allowing within His permissive will that which does not give Him pleasure yet in His Sovereign Being of good pleasure cannot be affected in outcome of His permissive will now- understood as individual choice! Love, Steven 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 What does scripture say about creating all things, knowing all things, but allowing all things to come to pass. My debate is not that God doesn't force his will on people and that people have a choice. No, my debate is that if God already knows who is going to hell when he creates them in mothers womb then why create them. Why in the world would you create them if you know they will suffer in hell for eternity. Hell is hot and painful. (sigh) Why why why why!! I definitly see God as an all loving God who can only do good, but I just can't seem to get past the why. Why he creates unbelievers destined to hell. Again my debate is about God's omniscience. It's not that he allows people to do something wrong, but he ALREADY KNOWS they will not accept his salvation and will go to hell. He ALREADY KNOWS before he creates them. God's omniscience is a powerful thing!!! Perhaps because of the butterfly effect? If an atheist gave birth to a child who would become a Christian in the future, and the butterfly effect of this "one" Christian would eventually bring thousands to the Lord in the future, wouldn't it be worth loosing one life in order to be able to save thousands of others? Just a thought... There's just one problem with that solution. God is omniscient. He already knows those thousands of people were going to be saved anyways, and he already knows who will die as atheists. So why create the atheists in the first place if he knows they will die as atheists, being that there will be more non believers than believers created anyways..(Matthew 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.) Some may say we were created out of love. Where is the love from God for Bob Smith Jr if God knew Bob was going to die and go to hell even before God created Bob. In the end, is God just a mad scientist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 There's just one problem with that solution. God is omniscient. He already knows those thousands of people were going to be saved anyways, and he already knows who will die as atheists. So why create the atheists in the first place if he knows they will die as atheists, being that there will be more non believers than believers created anyways..(Matthew 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.) Some may say we were created out of love. Where is the love from God for Bob Smith Jr if God knew Bob was going to die and go to hell even before God created Bob. In the end, is God just a mad scientist? What do you suggest God should do to quench this dilemma of yours ? I knew at times the bad things my children would do but I didn't discipline them until they did them. What do you say I should have done ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall7 Posted October 20, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,385 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 491 Days Won: 5 Joined: 04/25/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2013 What does scripture say about creating all things, knowing all things, but allowing all things to come to pass. My debate is not that God doesn't force his will on people and that people have a choice. No, my debate is that if God already knows who is going to hell when he creates them in mothers womb then why create them. Why in the world would you create them if you know they will suffer in hell for eternity. Hell is hot and painful. (sigh) Why why why why!! I definitly see God as an all loving God who can only do good, but I just can't seem to get past the why. Why he creates unbelievers destined to hell. Again my debate is about God's omniscience. It's not that he allows people to do something wrong, but he ALREADY KNOWS they will not accept his salvation and will go to hell. He ALREADY KNOWS before he creates them. God's omniscience is a powerful thing!!! Perhaps because of the butterfly effect? If an atheist gave birth to a child who would become a Christian in the future, and the butterfly effect of this "one" Christian would eventually bring thousands to the Lord in the future, wouldn't it be worth loosing one life in order to be able to save thousands of others? Just a thought... There's just one problem with that solution. God is omniscient. He already knows those thousands of people were going to be saved anyways, and he already knows who will die as atheists. So why create the atheists in the first place if he knows they will die as atheists, being that there will be more non believers than believers created anyways..(Matthew 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.) Some may say we were created out of love. Where is the love from God for Bob Smith Jr if God knew Bob was going to die and go to hell even before God created Bob. In the end, is God just a mad scientist? The only logical answer I can come up with is that: There is a distinction between: inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known. total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known. Some modern Christian theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.[2] John Calvin, among other theologians of the 16th century, comfortable with the definition of God as being omniscient in the total sense, in order for worthy beings' abilities to choose freely, embraced the doctrine of predestination. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts