Littlelambseativy Posted September 15, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted September 15, 2013 Nothing is as sensuous as a fully clothed body. When the body is mostly dressed there is nothing to the imagination and thus not as seductive - in the 18th to the late 19th the ankle was most sensual because it was covered up. Having said that I do not like the low cut 'everything' that is out there - personally some would probably be down to my navel. As a Christian the clothing should not be seductive yet when you go out to the store is there much available to purchase? So much is left to eh designers and not the purchasers of the clothing - no option if you want something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 No, but neither can we simply write everything off in Revelation as figurative whenever it is convenient to do so. There is NOTHING about the description of Jesus in Rev. 1 that possesses any figurative imagery. There are no figurative elements indicated anywhere in the text of that particular description. It is convenient to simply brush it off as figurative, but it takes a competent exegete to demonstrate when a figurative device is being employed in the text. So if you believe it is figurative, I assme that you have the hermeneutic skill necessary to demonstrate exegetically that this description is really a figurative or symbolic or whatever. I await your exegesis of this passage. So, the sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is not figurative imagery? Really? are you sure you want to stick with that story? The first clue that it is figurative is that it was a vision, not a reality. Second, the entire description of Jesus is filled with symbolism and figurative speech. His hair was not really wool and his eyes were not really on fire. His feet were not really made of bronze. The stars and the lampstands are symbolism. It doesn't say his hair was wool. It says it was white like wool. It doesn't say his eyes were on fire, but that they were like flames of fire. It means that his eyes had a characteristic that reminded John of flames of fire. He weas standing in the midst of seven menorahs. What needs to be figurative about that? Jesus is surrounded by seven menorahs. I see no problem with John actually seeing that. Out of His mouth was a two-edged sword. What if that is exactly what John saw? He was viewing a visions and if haystacks and the stars and sun and moon could bow to Joseph, then it is not far fetched that John saw precisely what he said he saw. I agree it is symbolic, but it was exactly what he saw. But the context of this conversation is not about His hair or His eyes. The passage says that Jesus was covered down to his feet with a garment and golden "girdle." Jesus was not naked in that vision and that is what is at the heart of my response. The passage reads as if John is relating exactly what he saw, whether you can make room for it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDavis Posted September 15, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,740 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 183 Days Won: 7 Joined: 07/02/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1964 Share Posted September 15, 2013 It doesn't say his hair was wool. It says it was white like wool. It doesn't say his eyes were on fire, but that they were like flames of fire. It means that his eyes had a characteristic that reminded John of flames of fire. He weas standing in the midst of seven menorahs. What needs to be figurative about that? Jesus is surrounded by seven menorahs. I see no problem with John actually seeing that. Out of His mouth was a two-edged sword. What if that is exactly what John saw? He was viewing a visions and if haystacks and the stars and sun and moon could bow to Joseph, then it is not far fetched that John saw precisely what he said he saw. I agree it is symbolic, but it was exactly what he saw. But the context of this conversation is not about His hair or His eyes. The passage says that Jesus was covered down to his feet with a garment and golden "girdle." Jesus was not naked in that vision and that is what is at the heart of my response. The passage reads as if John is relating exactly what he saw, whether you can make room for it or not. Ok then, in the vision that God showed John Jesus was wearing a robe. Everything else in the passage is symbolism, so we can safely assume the robe and belt of gold is also. So, this passage does nothing to show us what is heaven is actually like. I am glad we got this worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 16, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Ok then, in the vision that God showed John Jesus was wearing a robe. Everything else in the passage is symbolism, so we can safely assume the robe and belt of gold is also. Attire of a king is often symbolic - at least in those days. It is possible for something real to be symbolic as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDavis Posted September 16, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,740 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 183 Days Won: 7 Joined: 07/02/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1964 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Ok then, in the vision that God showed John Jesus was wearing a robe. Everything else in the passage is symbolism, so we can safely assume the robe and belt of gold is also. Attire of a king is often symbolic - at least in those days. It is possible for something real to be symbolic as well. Anything is possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsukinoRei Posted September 16, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 438 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/02/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2013 Ok then, in the vision that God showed John Jesus was wearing a robe. Everything else in the passage is symbolism, so we can safely assume the robe and belt of gold is also. Attire of a king is often symbolic - at least in those days. It is possible for something real to be symbolic as well. Anything is possible It's possible that Jesus comes back as the Jesus Doll TM, with bronze feet, and hair made out of wool - with the special child friendly feature of a sword coming out of his mouth?!?!? No. You were right the first time. It's symbolic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 16, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 16, 2013 It's possible that Jesus comes back as the Jesus Doll TM, with bronze feet, and hair made out of wool - with the special child friendly feature of a sword coming out of his mouth?!?!? No. You were right the first time. It's symbolic. So, do you believe Jesus is nude or covered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsukinoRei Posted September 16, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 438 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/02/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2013 It's possible that Jesus comes back as the Jesus Doll TM, with bronze feet, and hair made out of wool - with the special child friendly feature of a sword coming out of his mouth?!?!? No. You were right the first time. It's symbolic. So, do you believe Jesus is nude or covered? I believe that question isn't addressed in scripture so anything I thought would be useless conjecture at best. I believe that doctrinal questions can not and should not be answered with prophetic, symbolic, writings. The Book of Revelations will not answer any questions about modesty or nudity, or any other questions of scriptural law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 16, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 16, 2013 God made them naked, they stayed naked for their entire time in the garden, which was spent with God. Clearly God did not have an issue with their nudity. The issue with nudity is man's issue, not Gods. We will all stand naked before God...and none of us will care. If that is true, why is it mentioned in Revelation people will be given robes to wear? Revelation 7:9 New International Version (NIV) The Great Multitude in White Robes 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. The Lamb is not literal. We understand that the Lamb is Jesus Christ who was sacrificed for our sins, the palm branches represent worship, the white robes represent being clothed in righteousness. I think the number of people who believe that Jesus Christ reincarnates as a literal sheep are very few indeed! Why would we think the white robes are literal? It's possible that Jesus comes back as the Jesus Doll TM, with bronze feet, and hair made out of wool - with the special child friendly feature of a sword coming out of his mouth?!?!? No. You were right the first time. It's symbolic. So, do you believe Jesus is nude or covered? I believe that question isn't addressed in scripture so anything I thought would be useless conjecture at best. I believe that doctrinal questions can not and should not be answered with prophetic, symbolic, writings. The Book of Revelations will not answer any questions about modesty or nudity, or any other questions of scriptural law. There was a claim that we would stand naked before God. So what is the Scriptural support for this claim? If there is support, the next question is how far does this nakedness go? Either the ones in Heaven are covered or they are nude. This includes Jesus. S which isit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsukinoRei Posted September 17, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 438 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/02/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2013 God made them naked, they stayed naked for their entire time in the garden, which was spent with God. Clearly God did not have an issue with their nudity. The issue with nudity is man's issue, not Gods. We will all stand naked before God...and none of us will care. If that is true, why is it mentioned in Revelation people will be given robes to wear? Revelation 7:9 New International Version (NIV) The Great Multitude in White Robes 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. The Lamb is not literal. We understand that the Lamb is Jesus Christ who was sacrificed for our sins, the palm branches represent worship, the white robes represent being clothed in righteousness. I think the number of people who believe that Jesus Christ reincarnates as a literal sheep are very few indeed! Why would we think the white robes are literal? It's possible that Jesus comes back as the Jesus Doll TM, with bronze feet, and hair made out of wool - with the special child friendly feature of a sword coming out of his mouth?!?!? No. You were right the first time. It's symbolic. So, do you believe Jesus is nude or covered? I believe that question isn't addressed in scripture so anything I thought would be useless conjecture at best. I believe that doctrinal questions can not and should not be answered with prophetic, symbolic, writings. The Book of Revelations will not answer any questions about modesty or nudity, or any other questions of scriptural law. There was a claim that we would stand naked before God. So what is the Scriptural support for this claim? If there is support, the next question is how far does this nakedness go? Either the ones in Heaven are covered or they are nude. This includes Jesus. S which isit? We will stand spiritually naked before God. You are seeking an answer as to whether we will be literally naked before God. There is no answer to that. There is not even an answer to what kind of bodies we will have, other than 'like the angels'. We may not even have genders in heaven. Let's say that there are genders in Heaven. Will there be lust in Heaven, or will we be made without sin in Heaven? Were not Adam and Eve naked when they were without sin? Will we suffer from hot or cold in Heaven? Wasn't suffering from the elements also a result of the fall? If there is no lust in Heaven, and we are not attacked by the elements in Heaven, then why would we need clothes in Heaven? Most importantly we will have ultimate spiritual intimacy with God in Heaven. We will be one with each other and be one in Him. Why would it matter what we were wearing or if we were wearing anything? Adam and Eve did not notice their nakedness until after they ate the fruit. When mankind is restored into right relationship with God will we be in a state to notice our nakedness then and be ashamed? If we did notice our nakedness and were ashamed and needed to be covered then would that not mean that sin has not been defeated and we had not been remade? When I was a little girl my Sunday School Teacher told me that God can see us everywhere. My eyes went wide and I said, 'Even when I'm going to the bathroom?!' She said yes. For a little while after that I prayed to God before I went to the bathroom and asked Him to please avert his eyes for a few minutes. Of course that was silly, and I gradually grew into a desire for God to see my all, and have my all, and learned that I didn't need to be ashamed before Him. We have to trust Him with all the things that shame us so that He can take them and mould us into what He intended us to be. To God, our whole selves are laid bare and He loves us and takes us as we are. But for Him to take us as we are, when we stand before Him we have to be as we are - then we can grow in Him and through Him. Being embarrassed about being naked in Heaven is not really different from being embarrassed about God seeing us in the bathroom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts