Is listening to secular music wrong?

[apothanein kerdos]

Soul...if I wanted to I could write a twenty page responce to each one of those articles. However, I want to have a discussion with you, not with a lifeless article that you quoted. I am going to say this, you can call me arrogant all you want, but it's true. i have studied this issue in depth for more than four years. You haven't. I have read all the scriptures you've posted in the original Greek and understand the actual context. You haven't and you don't. I've posted from the knowledge I've gained through prayer and studied. You've posted articles.

Now, if you want to actually use your own thought (this would be a change from the previous posts), go ahead and prove me wrong. I have already read all of the articles you've posted. They can be found mostly on the AV site. So please, don't think you've "called me out on my sin". Far from it. If anything, you've proven yourself for what you are; a pharisee.

[soulwinner]

Jon i have seen lots of people come to Christ through witnessing and testimonies I have friends that are lost i just dont have an unusual friend ship with them, and i have been able to win folks like that so guess im no to legalistic by the way when is the last time you witnessed to someone i mean took a bible and witnessed? Hey if it's been recently glory to God but since you have marked me let me do the same not to nice

[apothanein kerdos]

Funny, I always thought Rock and Roll had heavy roots in  African American Church music. Black Gospel is an amazing art form that glorifies God in my opinion. Maybe Satan stole God's music rather than the other way around. Anyway I play guitar every Sunday at my church( Church of the Nazarene). We play alot of upbeat modern stuff and I find it very worshipful. We mix it with some of the great hymns of the past as well.

Dan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See dgol, the Rock and Roll people who taught that it was evil use to teach it was evil because it came from the black culture....I think you see why they changed their history (and their tune). Oops on their part. So, you're right, Rock and Roll did come from the black culture...this is why it was originally believed that Rock and Roll was evil

[soulwinner]

im a legalist and a pharisee whoo whee i called you a brother in christ earlier and now im a pharisee well brother you couldnt handle what i posted earlier and you had to divert to name calling and attacking can you look up reproof in the greek for me as well. By the way you never did bring up any scripture but i brought up a bunch advantage me. good night super jew

[soulwinner]

on post # 131 you listed a number of 8 I's I I I I I I You my brother I feel are to proudful you have an intelect but use it for the glory of God not I I I I I I

[soulwinner]

ok ok ok defend rock and roll or try and defend "christian" rock and roll let me guess you dont have to. well that will be your excuse the burden does not fall on you right? convenient excuse for not being able to defend your viewless point

[apothanein kerdos]

If you want your precious answer:

Why do the religious rock and rollers not only desire to look and sound like the world but also desire to be accepted by the world? They want to play on MTV and get their songs high on the secular and gospel charts. The Lord Jesus Christ said in John 15:19,20 "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. It they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you;...". We also read in 2 Tim 3:12 "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution". The previous verses state that Christians will not be loved and accepted by the world because the world in general rejects the Lord Jesus Christ. "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather that light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19).

The problem with this statement is that it makes a blanket statement about all Christian rock artist. It assumes that every single one of them are in it in order to be popular. The problem with this is that it is highly unfounded. The author of the article fails to produce any studies that show that all Christian Rock artist are in the "business" in order to become popular. In fact, the Christian group "Cool Hand Luke" would rather stay in the shadows and put Christ in the spot light (1). Thus, the burden of proof now lies within the author of this article and those who support it to supply evidence that those who are in Christian rock are in it for themselves.

As for the scriptures that have been grossly thrown out of context:

I must ask how much persecution the author has undergone. When JEsus speaks of these things He is actually talking about a literal persecution that takes on physical harm. Thus if the only true sign of a Christian is the one who takes on physical harm, then almost everyone in America who claims the title Christian will go to hell. The alternative (and correct) translation to these verses is that the world as a whole will hate the Gospel message we bring. Obviously not everyone will hate us in the world, after all, how would they, or those who are currently Christians, come to Christ? So obviously we have to do something to get out into the world. So the question now becomes how. While the world hates the Gospel message and will hate us, this does not mean we cannot meet them where they are at. In fact, that's exactly what Jesus and Paul did. Jesus met the woman at the well where she went everyday. Likewise Paul stated that, "to the Jew I become as a Jew, that i might win Jews; to those under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God, but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. (2). Thus, we are to go out into the world but not become like it in a moral sense.

In light of the Word of God does it not follow to reason that true godly music that worships and exalts the Lord Jesus Christ will be rejected by the world? Music that calls people to repentance, holiness, separation, and total commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ will not be popular in the eyes of a Christ-rejecting world.

This too, isn't true...unless you want to admit that hymns are not of Christ. You see, many of the original hymns were sung in secular settings because both the secular audience and Christian audience enjoyed them both. Furthermore, we should not dress as the world either, under this paradigm. For if we dress like the world then we have become as the world. Lawyers who cheat wear suits, so no more wearing suits to church.

Now what is the purpose of music? Music has two purposes: 1) to worship and glorify God; 2) To edify and build up Christians. The Word of God says: "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Eph 5:19). "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord" (Col 3:16).

I already responded to the Ephesians 5:19 verse. Let's look at it again:

Now, let's examine this scripture in it's original language to see how the reader would have understood it. I think it is absolutely vital, because some of the key words in this sentence are different in their meaning than they are today.

laluntes eautois psalmois kai umnois kai odais prematikais adontes kai psallontes ev te kardia umon to kurion

Of course, this is transliterated, however I do this to point out the key words within it. The highlighted words are the words I want to point out.

When Paul refers to psalmos he is talking about a song that is done through stringed instruments. In other words, it's a song that is done with stringed instruments as the main focus of the song. Thus a song that is done with an aucoustic guitar, bass, or electic guitar as the main instrument or focus within the musical aspect would fit into Ephesians 5:19...of course, that's if you want to be legalistic about it. When Paul brings up humnos he is refering to songs that is considered sacred, one that teaches a lesson. Thus, as long as the song has a message to it then it would fit into the context of Ephesians 5:19. We now move to prematikais adontes which is a "spiritual song". This can simply mean, "belonging to the spirit." Now you trapped me earlier asking if the song you quoted was a spiritual song. I said no thinking that you were refering to songs that soley lift up God and His purpose. I would still advocate that under this definition it would not work. However, under the Greek definition, it fits perfectly. Their song teaches principles of a Godly life, thus it belongs to God by doing so.

Also, here are the real reasons God uses music:

1) Used in war (Numbers 10:9, 31:6, Numbers 10:10, 1 Kings 1:34)

2) Used in worship (1 Samuel 16:16)

Music is not necessary to win the lost but it is a form of worship and praise to God. In fact, sacred Gospel music is not for the world and it has never been meant for the world. It is for the child of God to worship and praise God. God has not ordained music to win the lost; he has ordained preaching. "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor 1:21). The purpose of sacred gospel music is not to draw the unsaved to the Lord Jesus Christ. Sacred music may at times draw the unsaved, but that is not its purpose. Its purpose is to worship and praise God and not to be used as a tool to win the unsaved. The unsaved are drawn to God by the preaching of the Word.

Music is not necessary however it is not forbidden. In fact, many times within the Old Testament music is used to bring the lost children of Israel back to their Maker.

As for preaching being the only ordained way to share the gospel, obviously the author is ignorant to what preaching means. The Greek word kerusso only means to proclaim. It doesn't specify how. Thus when the scriptures talk about "preaching the gospel" it is talking about "proclaiming the Gospel" but does not specify the "how".

The religious rockers make many professions about the Lord Jesus Christ but as soon as the music starts, a transformation occurs as they are taken over by the spirit of Elvis Presley.

Spirit's cannot rise from the dead. First comes the death and then the judgement. If they are refering to a figurative spirit then they must once again prove that these singers are taken over. What proves that all Christian rock singers are taken over by a certain spirit?

In the religious rock scene we have many who freely profess the name of Jesus but in works they deny Him. They go on stage and speak about the Lord Jesus Christ but they play music associated with rebellion, sexual immorality, perversion, and nihilism. They wear demonic sexual clothing such as: sado- masochistic studded jackets and pants, effeminate men with earrings, long hair, makeup, and tight sexual clothing. All this adds up to a denial of their words by their actions

Then are the people who come to Christ at these events under a false belief in Christ? Likewise, where can they prove that:

1) Leather jackets are Satanic

2) The sound is evil

3) Earrings are wrong for men

4) Long hair is wrong for men

5) That all Christian rock artist dress this way

When people are communicating there is a verbal part and a non-verbal part. In order for the message to be clearly understood both the verbal and the non- verbal must be in agreement. If there is a contradiction between the verbal and the non-verbal, people will believe the non-verbal before the verbal. These religious rockers verbally make their profession; "They profess that they know God;". Non-verbally the religious rockers give off a different message of rebellion, compromise, and sexuality; "but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1:16). When they claim to be preaching the Lord Jesus Christ, they really are not. What they are actually doing is taking the name of the Lord in vain. They profane the name of the Lord when they link it up with something that is not consistant with His nature.

How is a sound not consistent with His nature? Paul talks about how in Romans that meat sacrificed to idols is okay to eat because it is just meat. Peter talks about how anything the Lord has made should not be considered unclean.

What does God have to say about all this compromise and fellowship with evil? In 2 Cor. 6:14-17 God says: "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." After reading this it can be seen that coming out and being separate from evil is not the cheap imitation and monkey-see-monkey-do that the religious rock scene portrays. Again, where is the discernment between good and evil within the church?

That scripture is talking about being married and holding close relationships with the lost. To be yoked one would have to be binded next to the person. Paul is showing them that we cannot be closely binded in a personal relationship to one that is lost.

One definite fruit of religious rock is that it leads it's followers back to involvement with secular rock.

The problem for this is that he holds absolutely no proof in it. In fact, most of the time a Christian is trying to get into Christian rock is because they are trying to get out of secular rock.

Rock comes in a package --- it is a package deal! The listener doesn't just get the music alone. Over time one or more of the following evil fruits will be manifest in the life of the listener:

-Rebellion -Suicide -Homosexuality -Violence -Immoraliy -Blasphemy -Drugs & Alcohol -Occult -Worldliness

LOL. Well no duh! No matter what a Christian does, even you Soulwinner, exhibit at least one of these traits on a daily basis. Likewise, he has to prove that rock music is the cause of this.

The following is a quote by David Wilkerson from his book: SET THE TRUMPET TO THY MOUTH. He is talking about the problem of Religious rock, but it also applies to Christians who partake of secular rock. "Only the despisers of the Lord Jesus could embrace what He hates. Only the rebellious could purchase one of their records. Only those with a divided heart could go to one of their concerts or view one of their video cassettes. Their video cassettes are demonic and blasphemous. The spirit of mixture and confusion it was born in will slowly possess you and lead you blindly to the altars of Baal. Sneer if you choose, but you have been warned" (page 113,114).

BLIND DEFENSE: Some religious rockers get very angry when they hear someone speak against their demonic music they love so dearly. If only they would defend, love, and serve the Lord Jesus Christ as much as their godless music. God says: "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light" (Eph 5:8). "See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil" (Eph 5:15,16).

Well this is a "gotcha" arguement and fails logically and not only thta it's hypocritical. Whoever thought of it has a mind that is barely above that of an ape. I digress. To say, "Oh, you're defending your music thus are evil because you are not defending Christ" is a self-contradicting arguement. Look at the logic. A man wrote a book to denote a certain kind of music, to defend his way of life and the music he likes and believe is holy and took time to study rock music in order to attack those who listen to it...and in the process forgot to mention Jesus. Thus his own logic bites back onto him. Furthermore, defending something doesn't mean you raise it above Christ. Instead I am defending a venue that I believe Christ's works through. Paul did the same thing with meat sacrificed to idols. He dedicated an entire chapter to it.

REBELLION: Many involved in the religious rock scene refuse to listen to correction and rebuke from scripture. They harden their necks and set their mind not to give up their demonic music. It doesn't seem to concern them that this music is vomit on the table of the Lord and is an abomination to Him.

Again, another "gotcha" arguement that states that because they refuse to listen to the teachings of Terry Hatekins they are somehow sinning. This actually elevates your interpretation on level with God. You are saying you hold an absolute interpretation of the Bible.

ANSWER: So-called results do not mean God is behind it. The Lord Jesus said in Matthew 7:15,21-23 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves....Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

The Lord Jesus also said that many will be deceived by false prophets and false Christs. "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold....for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" Matthew 24:11,12,24.

*** (Note * An altar call at a religious rock concert can be likened to a wolf giving altar calls to chickens!!!)

This discredits the actual salvations that have occured at christian rock concerts. It avoids the actual issue being addressed, the of actual salvations. On top of that, it is violating Matthew 7:1 by judging the eternal state of people who go forward at these concerts.

ARGUMENT #2 But Jesus went out and mingled with sinners.

ANSWER: The Lord Jesus never went into a den of iniquity nor did He copy the ways of the ungodly. The Bible says: "For such a high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;" Hebrews 7:26. "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" John 17:14

He went to a wedding party where people were drunk. What did He do? He gave them more wine. Nice try

"Christian Rock" is destructive to the Church as it leads God's people into sensuality and compromise. If you sincerely love The Lord Jesus Christ and you are involved with this music, then obey the Lord and forsake this unclean thing.

Once again he lacks the proof.

We now have: Christian Rock, Christian New Wave, Christian Heavy Metal, Christian Punk. What are these rebels going to advocate next? Christian drug use, Christian Witchcraft, Christian Pornography???

Drugs, witchcraft, and pornography are all moral issues. They all deal with actual morals. Music, however, is an amoral issue in that the sound itself has no moral behind it. While the lyrics and lifestyle can be put to the music, the music is a neutral item.

There is a style of music which has been invading the Church of Jesus Christ which is godless, immoral, and which leads Christians into rebellion and compromise with the world. That style of music is "Christian" Rock an Roll. The term Rock & Roll was given to name a form of music in the 1950's. The style of music was evil from its beginning and it was appropriately given the name Rock & Roll. This name was given by the world and it stands for the practice of fornication by teenagers in the back seat of a car.

You're right, that is what it was intended for. Want to know why Alan Freed coined it that way?

Rock and roll came from black R&B. However if white people knew that they wouldn't have listened to it. Thus, in a twist of irony, Alan Freed used the black slang term for sex, "Rock and Roll" so whites would listen to it. It was named that way out of irony.

Either way...how does the sound bring evil with it?

The primary axiom of music evaluation is that there is no such thing as amoral music.

Lyrics are not amoral. However sound is. You must prove that sound is not amoral.

I cut it short here because I am late on time, need to study, and these articles literally repeat themselves. I expect you to respond to each and everything I posted soulwinner, or not to say a word at all. Good day.

[Jon The Jew]

by the way when is the last time you witnessed to someone i mean took a bible and witnessed?

I don't normally take a Bible when I witness. I have it there in case they make a decision, but not when I'm witnessing. Most people are intimidated and not open to listen to someone who will rip through their Bible when witnessing.

But to answer your question, Wednesday night.

I'm friends with a lot of lost people. But, I'm doing what Jesus said, being light to the darkness. I go into the darkness, because that is the only way for darkness to recieve light.

[Anne]

Come on guys,

Calm down, there can be no good come from arguing and name calling, on any side. This is a good subject to discuss, we should be learning from each other, not trying to beat each other up.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus

Anne

[Eternally Striving]

ok ok ok defend rock and roll or try and defend "christian" rock and roll let me guess you dont have to. well that will be your excuse the burden does not fall on you right? convenient excuse for not being able to defend your viewless point

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So are you actually asking for proof about how Christan rock isn't evil? And not only is it not evil, but capable of being used to glorify God? Because I can supply that.

Here we go.

First, a brief history:

Christian hardcore gained popularity in about the mid-90s. They entered the scene with intentions of creating music based on their beliefs. They (the musicians) wanted to reach out the kids in that particular scene, because no one else apparently would...in fact, there are only a few ministries even in today's time (that I know of, at least) that are reaching out to these kids. Their lyrics were reflections of their lives, and they lived their lives trying to reflect Christ. Consequently, the lyrics were also about Christ. You won't be able to do much of a JPM count (Jesus Per Minute), but the implications of their beliefs are very much apparent.

Here is a list of oldschool hardcore bands...many of them have since broken up, but you're welcome to look into their history should you choose to...either to dig up dirt, or to actually read up about their beliefs.

Unashamed

Overcome

No Innocent Victim

Living Sacrifice

Few Left Standing

Luti-Kriss (old name) - Norma Jean (present day name)

Point of Recognition

Those are just a few of the bands. All of the above listed bands have lyrics Here

That addresses the history of the genre itself.

You will be hard pressed to find evidence of their lack of faith in Christ in their lyrics. A few articles of evidence citing the faith of some of these bands:

Shawn Jonas (ex-singer of Zao--prominent current day hardcore band) left Zao and was a youth pastor for a period of time before he went and formed another band called Symphony in Peril (another current day hardcore band).

No Innocent Victim is choosing to come out of retirement, and release another record. Their reason:

The band signed a deal with Facedown Records on Oct. 22, 2004 for the release of what will be the bands most anticipated album yet. Lyrically they will be tackling the issue that inspired the reunion - a lack of Integrity in the people that claim to be Christians. Drummer Jason Dunn states it like this: "If the world is to see the truth of the teachings of Jesus Christ, it will be because of His followers living those teachings out in their lives. If you claim to be something - live it. Challenge yourself to not be the hypocrite that people will base their rejection of Christianity on."

Source

Living Sacrifice wrote about their beliefs in the liner notes of their [Reborn] CD. They also included the gospel message.

A band called Underoath incorporated a hidden track in which the lead singer spoke of the hope that Christ offers people, and how we hoped that the music they were producing could show some of the kids that hope.

These bands are reaching out to a scene that no one else is wanting to reach out to because everyone thinks that this music is evil (as this very thread has tried to prove) and this music is going to cause people to stumble in their faith or whatever. There's more value in these bands trying to reach out to kids in that than can ever be derived from debating about the evils of hardcore.

Edited December 4, 2004 by Eternally Striving