Evangelical Universalism - True or False Doctrine?

[Elhanan]

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.  Matt 25:46

 

This is probably the most single used verse in Scripture to attempt to disprove universalism and ninhao and asper have both cited it paying particular attention to the parallel structure of this verse’s two clauses. The argument goes something like this: Since believers are said to reap “eternal” life in the second half of the verse, then in order to be grammatically consistent one must conclude that unbelievers also reap “eternal” punishment.  Therefore unbelievers are condemned to hell/lake of fire forever and not all are eventually saved which disproves universalism.  At first glance this appears logically consistent and a foolproof argument. However this argument fails to take into account the context of this verse.  It assumes that the sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers at the great white throne which is incorrect.

 

Different Time: The judgment of the nations occurs at the second coming of Christ (Matthew 5:31); the great white throne judgment occurs following the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:11-12).

 

Different Scene: The judgment of the nations occurs on earth (Matthew 25:31); the great white throne judgment occurs at the great white throne (Revelation 20:11).

 

Different Subjects: At the judgment of the nations, three groups of people are mentioned: the sheep, the goats, and the brothers (Matthew 25:32,40). The great white throne judgment involves the unsaved dead (Revelation 20:12).

 

Different Basis: The basis of judgment at the judgment of the nations is how Christ’s “brothers” were treated (Matthew 25:40); the basis of judgment at the great white throne is their works (Revelation 20:12).

 

Different Result: The result of the judgment of the nations is twofold: the righteous enter into the kingdom; the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire. The result of the great white throne judgment is that the wicked dead are cast into the lake of fire (the righteous are not mentioned).

 

Resurrection: No resurrection is mentioned in connection with the judgment of the nations. A resurrection does take place in connection with the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:13).

 

The goats are those who go into the lake of fire for an age of time.  The sheep are those who go on to inhabit the earth also for an age of time - during the millennium age. 

 

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.  (YLT)

 

Aionios life as applied to the sheep cannot mean eternal life since obviously the millenial age only lasts for 1,000 years.  Since aionios life cannot mean eternal life for the sheep then it does not stand to reason that it must automatically mean eternal damnation for the goats either.

[Floatingaxe]

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.  Matt 25:46

 

This is probably the most single used verse in Scripture to attempt to disprove universalism and ninhao and asper have both cited it paying particular attention to the parallel structure of this verse’s two clauses. The argument goes something like this: Since believers are said to reap “eternal” life in the second half of the verse, then in order to be grammatically consistent one must conclude that unbelievers also reap “eternal” punishment.  Therefore unbelievers are condemned to hell/lake of fire forever and not all are eventually saved which disproves universalism.  At first glance this appears logically consistent and a foolproof argument. However this argument fails to take into account the context of this verse.  It assumes that the sheep are believers and the goats are unbelievers at the great white throne which is incorrect.

 

Different Time: The judgment of the nations occurs at the second coming of Christ (Matthew 5:31); the great white throne judgment occurs following the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:11-12).

 

Different Scene: The judgment of the nations occurs on earth (Matthew 25:31); the great white throne judgment occurs at the great white throne (Revelation 20:11).

 

Different Subjects: At the judgment of the nations, three groups of people are mentioned: the sheep, the goats, and the brothers (Matthew 25:32,40). The great white throne judgment involves the unsaved dead (Revelation 20:12).

 

Different Basis: The basis of judgment at the judgment of the nations is how Christ’s “brothers” were treated (Matthew 25:40); the basis of judgment at the great white throne is their works (Revelation 20:12).

 

Different Result: The result of the judgment of the nations is twofold: the righteous enter into the kingdom; the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire. The result of the great white throne judgment is that the wicked dead are cast into the lake of fire (the righteous are not mentioned).

 

Resurrection: No resurrection is mentioned in connection with the judgment of the nations. A resurrection does take place in connection with the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:13).

 

The goats are those who go into the lake of fire for an age of time.  The sheep are those who go on to inhabit the earth also for an age of time - during the millennium age. 

 

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.  (YLT)

 

Aionios life as applied to the sheep cannot mean eternal life since obviously the millenial age only lasts for 1,000 years.  Since aionios life cannot mean eternal life for the sheep then it does not stand to reason that it must automatically mean eternal damnation for the goats either.

 

The sheep and goats judgment does take place on Earth at the onset of the Millennial Kingdom Age where Jesus Christ is King. However, the determination of the goats which are judged as condemnable are those who are alive at the time. These are survivors of the Great Tribulation. The resurrection of the saints has already occurred and they are present with Christ at this judgment. The dead outside of Christ are still dead and still in their graves to be judged (as condemnable also) at the conclusion of the Millennium when they will all be raised to stand at the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

Nothing has changed. The unrighteous still receive the same eternal punishment and never see a reprieve.

 

Nothing you have said about this judgment can support your continued misinterpretation of scripture concerning eternal punishment. No one goes to the Lake of Fire "FOR A TIME"---all who God condemns remains condemned FOREVER! Those whom God considers to be sheep will receive the same eternal life as the saints have received, who are present with them in their glorified bodies.

[Guest ninhao]

The goats are those who go into the lake of fire for an age of time.  The sheep are those who go on to inhabit the earth also for an age of time - during the millennium age. 

 

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.  (YLT)

 

Aionios life as applied to the sheep cannot mean eternal life since obviously the millenial age only lasts for 1,000 years.  Since aionios life cannot mean eternal life for the sheep then it does not stand to reason that it must automatically mean eternal damnation for the goats either.

 

I will only address the conclusion of this premise considering it reveals it's fallacy.

 

No one is sent to the LOF until after the Millennial Reign when satan is released, gathers followers, and is defeated/judged. 

 

Rev 20:2-3  He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.  (3)  He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

 

Rev 20:7  When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

 

Rev 20:13-15  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.  (14)  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.  (15)  Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

 

The LOF is the final resting place of the wicked and isn't used until after the Millennial Reign. This is why Jesus uses aionios with the intention of eternal consequences for both the wicked and the righteous.

 

We are still waiting upon scripture which shows anyone exiting the LOF. Considering this is quite a vital piece of information, and you prefer a hyper literal approach to interpreting scripture, can you present this scripture please.

[asper]

 

Hi elhanan,

 

You didn’t get the point so let’s move on,

 

 

What is the difference in this verse?

 

Mt 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting <166> punishment: but the righteous into life eternal <166>.

 

Are both forever or are both for a short period of time?

 

It would be pretty inconsistent to make one forever and the other one for a period of time don’t you think?

 

 

 

 

 

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting <166> life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

What does He mean by life?

 

 

 

Also where in the Bible is a unbeliever promised eternal life?

 

 

Let me know when you get a chance?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

I got your point but evidently you avoid my point as you refuse to deal with the context of Jn 3:16,18 and how you interpret it.  As for Matt 25:46 refer to my next post.

 

 

Hi elhanan,

 

If you got my point what was it?

 

 

Also you told me not to reply on this thread, and it looks like you made it totally optional to start my own thread about it.

 

Quote,

If by chance you choose to address Jn 3:18 start your own thread so we don't have to go off topic here.

 

 

Unquote.

 

So now you want me to answer?

 

 

I answered which one I chose in posts #131 and #133

 

I chose to go with the translators.

 

Joh 3:14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

 

Robertson word pictures,

 

John 3:15

present active subjunctive of εχω, that he may keep on having eternal life (a frequent phrase in John, always in John αιωνιος occurs with ζωη, 16 times in the Gospel, 6 in 1John, ageless or endless life, beginning now and lasting forever). It is more than endless, for it is sharing in the life of God in Christ (#5:26; 17:3; 1Jo 5:12). So here εν αυτω (in him) is taken with εχη rather than with πιστευων. The interview with Nicodemus apparently closes with verse #15. In verses #16-21 we have past tenses constantly as is natural for the reflection of John, but unnatural for Jesus speaking. There are phrases like the Prologue (verse #19; 1:9-11). "Only begotten" does not occur elsewhere in the words of Jesus, but is in #1:14,18; 1Jo 4:9. John often puts in explanatory comments (#Jo 1:16-18; 12:37-41).

 

John 3:16

 

For so (ουτως γαρ). This use of γαρ is quite in John’s style in introducing his comments (#2:25; 4:8; 5:13, etc.). This "Little Gospel" as it is often called, this "comfortable word" (the Anglican Liturgy), while not a quotation from Jesus is a just and marvellous interpretation of the mission and message of our Lord. In verses #16-21 John recapitulates in summary fashion the teaching of Jesus to Nicodemus.

 

Loved (ηγαπησεν). First aorist active indicative of αγαπαω, the noble word so common in the Gospels for the highest form of love, used here as often in John (#14:23; 17:23; 1Jo 3:1; 4:10) of God’s love for man (cf. #2Th 2:16; Ro 5:8; Eph 2:4). In #Jo 21:15 John presents a distinction between αγαπαω and φιλεω.  αγαπαω is used also for love of men for men (#13:34), for Jesus (#8:42), for God (#1Jo 4:10).

 

The world (τον κοσμον).  The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God’s love appears also in #2Co 5:19; Ro 5:8.

 

That he gave (ωστε εδωκεν). The usual classical construction with ωστε and the indicative (first aorist active) practical result, the only example in the N.T. save that in #Ga 2:13. Elsewhere ωστε with the infinitive occurs for actual result (#Mt 13:32) as well as purpose (#Mt 10:1), though even this is rare.

 

His only begotten Son (τον υιον τον μονογενη). "The Son the only begotten." For this word see on #1:14,18; 3:18.  The rest of the sentence, the purpose clause with ινα-εχη precisely reproduces the close of #3:15 save that εις αυτον takes the place of εν αυτω (see #1:12) and goes certainly with πιστευων (not with εχη as εν αυτω in verse #Jo 3:15) and the added clause "should not perish but" (μη αποληται αλλα, second aorist middle subjunctive, intransitive, of απολλυμι, to destroy). The same contrast between "perish" and "eternal life" (for this world and the next) appears also in #10:28.  On "perish" see also #17:12.

 

 

I would go with this,

 

http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gtense.html#Present

7. Historical (Dramatic) Present

The present tense may be used fairly frequently in narrative literature to portray a past event vividly, as though the reader were in the midst of the scene as it unfolds. [The category is frequently misunderstood; see Wallace for his discussions of exegetically significant examples.]

Matt 26:40 He came to his disciples and found them sleeping, and he said ...

 

Sleeping just happens to be present tense and is a particple just as believing is.

 

 

Are they still sleeping now?

 

God bless,

Tony

[asper]

Hi elhanon,

Your argument may be convincing to yourself but I would doubt that it is to others.

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You are assuming that those who enter the kingdom do not have eternal life but can be lost.

Robertson’s word pictures,

Eternal punishment (κολασιν αιωνιον). The word κολασιν comes from κολαζω, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between μωρια (vengeance) and κολασις. But the same adjective αιωνιος is used with κολασιν and ζωην. If by etymology we limit the scope of κολασιν, we may likewise have only age-long ζωην. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one’s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word αιωνιος (from αιων, age, αεσυμ, αει) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (αιωνες των αιωνων).

Mt 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Why? Because that through faith they enter the kingdom.

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Of course there is this verse and what is the requirement.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So your thought about us not having everlasting life is wrong.

The key is that those who are known of Jesus are the same that will have everlasting life.

Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you want you can dissect this even further concerning the kingdom(s) but that would not be profitable as I know the various theories concerning this and the Bible has the answers for them also.

God bless,

Tony

[rjp34652]

UNIVERSALISM REFUTED

 

Licentiousness and debauchery are the rule of the day in America!  From sea to polluted sea we see constant and clever excuses of how a man can sin against God and get away with it.   Sin as hard as you can for as long as you can and then ask forgiveness before you shoot through to the other side - right?  Your church membership will save you in the end and there's nothing God can do about it.  Except that He can and He does.

 

The 'live for today' philosophy has no root in Holy Scripture.  There ARE consequences - earthly consequences and eternal consequences.

God WILL punish those who sin today and the Bible says that it begins in God's own house among God's own people.  The Bible paints a very clear picture of what will happen to those who have not made peace with God - AND LIVED IT.

 

The greatest sin of all is to deny God's word and call the Almighty a liar.  There IS a hell and those who rebel against the Most High are destined for the furnace.

 

Here are but a few of the logical reasons why Universalism is heresy.

 

 

1.  The sinner cannot be saved and then punished.

If the sinner can be first saved and then punished, it follows that salvation is no preventive of damnation, or security against it; and if so, universal salvation, if prived, would constitute no ojbection to the doctrine of endless punishment, since punishment may exist after salvation has taken effect.

 

2.  The sinner cannot be saved and punished at the same time.

If the sinner be saved and punished at the same time, then salvation and damnation are made to meet, at the same time, in the same subject, and exist together.  Salvation as remarked in #1 can then be no security against damnation and damnation can in turn be no preventive of salvation;  universal salvation becomes consistent with universal damnation.  If all this be true, then it may appear that all men should be saved, yet punished endlessly for their sins.

 

3.  The sinner cannot receive all the punishment he deserves first, and then be saved.

This is the point around which universalists rally.

 

   That sinners cannot be punished all they deserve, and then be saved, must appear from the following considerations:

a. The sinner cannot receive all the punishment he deserves until a space of time shall have elapsed, after he shall have ceased to commit sin, and he can never cease to commit sin while he is in a state of condemnation and punishment; he cannot, therefore, receive all the punishment he deserves prior to his being saved.  

b. It cannot be denied that faith is essential to salvation, for it is written in Mark 16:6 "He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned.".  Thus no unbeliever can be saved.

c. Universalists generally object to this by quoting John 3:18 and endeavor to prove that the phrase "he that believeth not shall be condemned" means nothing.

 

It is generally agreed that unbelief is a sin for which the unbeliever deserves damnation for as long as he remains an unbeliever.  

 

From this it must follow that the moment faith is exercised, the sinner must be released from condemnation and punishment.  

 

We must ask then, can the sinner believe while he is yet receiving punishment for his past unbelief?  Most certainly not, if there is no salvation from punishment; for as the sinner can be condemned and punished no longer than he ramains an unbeliever, to say that he can believe at any time prior to his having received all the punishment he deserves, would be to say that he might be saved from just punishment; which is to point for which we contend.  If the sinner, then, cannot believe before he has received all the punishment he deserves, we ask, can he receive all the punishment he deserves before he believes?  Assuredly not; for unbelief is sin, for which the sinner must be damned and punished, and we have already remarked that punishment supposes a time of punishment, in which it is enfured, and this time of punishment must elapse after the commission of the sin, for a man cannot be punished before he committs the sin for which he is punished.

 

Punishment must be subsequent to the commission of the sin for which it is inflicted.  

 

Consequently a man must become conformed to the perfect law of righteousness AND THEN SUFFER all the punishment he deserves for his past deliquency.  This is impossible, for while the sinner is in the state of condemnation he cannot be conformed to the state of righteousness.

 

It is absurd to conclude that a man can be holy, living without commission of sins, serving God with all his powers and at the same time be guilty and suffering the punishment of divine displeasure.

 

From what can men be saved after they have received all the punishment they deserve?  

Matt 18:11 "The son of man has come to save that which was lost."

In what sense then will men be lost, since they have suffered all the punishment they deserve?

 

1.  Acceptance of good does not equate to salvation.

2.  Gospel salvation is attainable in this life.

 

REVIEW

1.  Sinners cannot be saved first and then punished for their sins.

2.  Sinners cannot be saved and punished at the same time.

3. Sinners cannot be saved after they have been punished all that their sins deserve; if sinners are punished all that their sins deserve, they can never be saved.

 

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE MUST APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

 

Repent and be saved.  Deny Christ and suffer eternal damnation.  Be wise and make peace while you may.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.....

[Elhanan]

 

The goats are those who go into the lake of fire for an age of time.  The sheep are those who go on to inhabit the earth also for an age of time - during the millennium age. 

 

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.  (YLT)

 

Aionios life as applied to the sheep cannot mean eternal life since obviously the millenial age only lasts for 1,000 years.  Since aionios life cannot mean eternal life for the sheep then it does not stand to reason that it must automatically mean eternal damnation for the goats either.

 

I will only address the conclusion of this premise considering it reveals it's fallacy.

 

No one is sent to the LOF until after the Millennial Reign when satan is released, gathers followers, and is defeated/judged. 

 

Rev 20:2-3  He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.  (3)  He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

 

Rev 20:7  When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

 

Rev 20:13-15  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.  (14)  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.  (15)  Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

 

The LOF is the final resting place of the wicked and isn't used until after the Millennial Reign. This is why Jesus uses aionios with the intention of eternal consequences for both the wicked and the righteous.

 

We are still waiting upon scripture which shows anyone exiting the LOF. Considering this is quite a vital piece of information, and you prefer a hyper literal approach to interpreting scripture, can you present this scripture please.

 

There is no wiggle room here. There is no fallacy. You claim: "No one is sent to the LOF until after the Millennial Reign when satan is released, gathers followers, and is defeated/judged."  That simply is not true as you have ignored Matt 25:41 where Jesus commands the goats on his left to depart into the fire prepared for the Devil and demons. Is that not apparent to you?  The sheep enter the millennial kingdom on earth.  When Jesus commands the goats into the fire I really doubt if they have the luxury of not immediately obeying Jesus' command and waiting 1,000 years before they feel like doing so.  I ask you is that what you really believe?

[Guest ninhao]

 

 

There is no wiggle room here. There is no fallacy. You claim: "No one is sent to the LOF until after the Millennial Reign when satan is released, gathers followers, and is defeated/judged."  That simply is not true as you have ignored Matt 25:41 where Jesus commands the goats on his left to depart into the fire prepared for the Devil and demons. Is that not apparent to you?  The sheep enter the millennial kingdom on earth.  When Jesus commands the goats into the fire I really doubt if they have the luxury of not immediately obeying Jesus' command and waiting 1,000 years before they feel like doing so.  I ask you is that what you really believe?

 

 

 

Revelation 20 provides the clear progression, and timing of when the LOF is first, and only used. It's following the Millennial reign that Jesus judges the living and the dead.

 

 

Rev 20:7  When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

 

Rev 20:10-15  And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  (11)  Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.  (12)  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.  (13)  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.  (14)  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.  (15)  Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

 

 

Revelation 20&21 are in agreement with Matthew 25:46  concerning the wicked.

 

 

 

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 

Rev 21:8  But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
 

 

 

Revelation 20&21 are in agreement with Matthew 25:46 concerning the righteous. The sheep not only participate in the  the Millennial Reign but continue into the Kingdom as shown in revelation 21.

 

 

 

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 

 

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
 

Rev 21:1-3  Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.  (2)  I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.  (3)  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Rev 21:7  Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
 

 

This is what Jesus said and considering the lack of substantial argument you have provided, and the blatant disregard for context and clear meaning of Jesus' words, it's obvious this Evangelical Universalism is false doctrine. It's so full of holes I'm wondering if you are serious in presenting it or are playing a game. 

[OneLight]

There is only one time when all the nations will be gathered for judgment, all who has ever lived will stand before God, and this is at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20. Matthew 25 points to this time and is not a different Judgment when Jesus sit on the throne to judge all nations.

Remember that Matthew 25 are parables, telling a story of what is to come. If Jesus was to judge all at His return, there would be nobody left to live in the Millennium and nobody to stand against Him when satan is released after 1000 years. Scripture tells us of only one Judgment of such magnitude where everyone will be judged, and that is after the 1000 year reign and the final battle with satan. Only after this judgment will the New Heaven and the New Earth be created.

As for any second chance, there is none and that has been clearly stated by many. The only time anything is tested by fire is when our works are tested to see if they stand or not.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

"As through fire" means that the works we preform that are not His works will not stand and be burnt, for they cannot enter His kingdom with us, so through this fire, we are made complete in Him where our bad works are no more, only His works done through us will stand.

Nowhere is scripture does it say that we are given a second chance by passing through the Lake of Fire. It has been asked many times that this teaching be backed with scripture and it has not. After 9 pages of discussion, if it were a true scriptural teaching, scripture would of been given. I believe that the lack of scriptural proof is clear enough to note that this is false teaching.

[Elhanan]

 

There is no wiggle room here. There is no fallacy. You claim: "No one is sent to the LOF until after the Millennial Reign when satan is released, gathers followers, and is defeated/judged."  That simply is not true as you have ignored Matt 25:41 where Jesus commands the goats on his left to depart into the fire prepared for the Devil and demons. Is that not apparent to you?  The sheep enter the millennial kingdom on earth.  When Jesus commands the goats into the fire I really doubt if they have the luxury of not immediately obeying Jesus' command and waiting 1,000 years before they feel like doing so.  I ask you is that what you really believe?

 

Revelation 20 provides the clear progression, and timing of when the LOF is first, and only used. It's following the Millennial reign that Jesus judges the living and the dead.

 

 

Rev 20:7  When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

 

Rev 20:10-15  And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  (11)  Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.  (12)  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.  (13)  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.  (14)  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.  (15)  Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

 

 

Revelation 20&21 are in agreement with Matthew 25:46  concerning the wicked.

 

 

 

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Rev 21:8  But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

 

 

Revelation 20&21 are in agreement with Matthew 25:46 concerning the righteous. The sheep not only participate in the  the Millennial Reign but continue into the Kingdom as shown in revelation 21.

 

 

 

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

 

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

Rev 21:1-3  Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.  (2)  I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.  (3)  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Rev 21:7  Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

 

 

This is what Jesus said and considering the lack of substantial argument you have provided, and the blatant disregard for context and clear meaning of Jesus' words, it's obvious this Evangelical Universalism is false doctrine. It's so full of holes I'm wondering if you are serious in presenting it or are playing a game.

 

I am not here to play games but unfortunately you like to play hide and seek when it comes to Matt 25:41 and somehow avoid answering my question I posed to you.. You stated my argument is a "fallacy" based upon your notion that no one enters the Lake of Fire until after the millennium. I'll re-quote your words to help jog your memory: "No one is sent to the LOF until after the Millennial Reign when satan is released, gathers followers, and is defeated/judged."  Instead of answering my question and addressing Jesus' command to the goats to depart into the fire which takes place before the millennium, you instead turn to Revelation for your argument and only quote from there when it's obvious that the text you quoted in Revelation takes place after the millennium. You have still failed to account for what happens to the goats before the white throne judgment. We know the sheep enter the millennium on the earth. The goats enter the lake of fire. But according to your view please explain what happens to the goats during the millennial kingdom if they are not in the lake of fire? I suppose they are just twiddling their thumbs just waiting for the 1,000 years to expire instead of obeying Christ's command to enter the fire. So how do you explain this?

 

In addition your claim that no one enters the LOF until after the millennium is demonstrably false as the beast and false prophet are sent there by Jesus after his victory at his second coming. "And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. Rev 19:20.

You should really follow your own advice and not blatantly ignore scripture.