Predestination Ouestions

[Openly Curious]

 

Can anyone help me with how the subject of predestination has been linked (biblically) to how a certain number of people are created evil and others are created to be evil.  Because I haven't seen this connection in the scriptures.  Predestination has absoulutely nothing to do with being created to be evil, being created to be good, losing or keeping one's salvation. 

What exactly is it that you are struggling with?

 

 

what does being created good or evil have to do with predestination?  what does having your name in or out of the book of life have to do with predestination?  what does losing or keeping one's salvation have to do with the subject of predestination.  I cannot see for the life of me how these things are related to what predestination actually is.  I can't see how all of these topics got entangled with a pre- determined plan God made before he created the earth and the things within it.  God had a purpose and plan that all could be saved in and through his son Jesus Christ and that anyone down throughout the generations and ages could be part of the children of God.  It simply was God's plan before the creation that both the Jews and Gentile nations be saved.

[asper]

I guess I threw it out there too fast. If you don’t get the first point then there is no reason to continue reading the rest.

 

Her conception is greatly multiplied,

 

Ge 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

 

If woman’s conception is greatly multiplied then that would mean that more people are conceived.

 

So more people being conceived means more people

 

(including those who don't reach full term but also those that do.)

 

 

God bless,

Tony

[asper]

 

I guess I threw it out there too fast. If you don’t get the first point then there is no reason to continue reading the rest.

 

Her conception is greatly multiplied,

 

Ge 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

 

If woman’s conception is greatly multiplied then that would mean that more people are conceived.

 

So more people being conceived means more people

 

(including those who don't reach full term but also those that do.)

 

 

God bless,

Tony

OK, I got the first part.  You believe that not only did God increase a woman's pain in child bearing, but he also increased the number of children a woman would have.  I will have to look more closely at that, because I never considered it.  What I don't understand is the relationship between more children and pre-destination?  Why would more people mean there would be those who are doomed?  What do you mean by "don't reach full term but also those that do?"  What do you mean by reaching full term?  It is hard to know if I agree or disagree because I can't fully grasp what you are saying? 

 

 

 

Hi butero,

 

The key would be “from the foundation of the world”.

 

If what I see is true then those children of the flesh would not be in that classification (chosen from the foundation of the world.) because they are part of the curse.

 

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

Those who are not written from the foundation of the world are not doomed except if they choose to be so. But they always seem to choose to be so

 

Re 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

As far as children who die before they are born and those who live they all must be counted in the number of conceptions.  I consider any one conceived is a person.

So I was just clarifying what I meant by people.

 

 

 

There are many theories that people believe and then expect people to believe them as facts. Evolution is a perfect example of this.

 

In the Christian world we do the same thing.

 

We also make our theories and ignore the facts that prove our theory wrong.

 

Instead of ignoring or explaining away predestination or free will verses so we can be right in our theories (Calvinism or Armenianism) we must admit both have good and bad ideas.

 

So any theory must take everything into account. The theory I presented did just that without denying free will or predestination.

 

So if it fits, does that make it right?

 

No. but it might be.

 

God bless,

Tony

[Guest man]

Romans 9

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 

15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

 

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

 

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 

 

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

[asper]

Romans 9

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 

15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

 

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

 

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 

 

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

 

 

Hi man,

 

There is a difference between the two verses.

 

Ro 9:22  What if <1487> <1161> God <2316>, willing <2309> (5723) to shew <1731> (5670) his wrath <3709>, and <2532> to make <1107> <0> his <846> power <1415> known <1107> (5658), endured <5342> (5656) with <1722> much <4183> longsuffering <3115> the vessels <4632> of wrath <3709> fitted <2675> (5772) to <1519> destruction <684>:

23  And <2532> that <2443> he might make known <1107> (5661) the riches <4149> of his <846> glory <1391> on <1909> the vessels <4632> of mercy <1656>, which <3739> he had afore prepared <4282> (5656) unto <1519> glory <1391>,

 

 

 

2675. καταρτιζω katartizo kat-ar-tid’-zo; from 2596 and a derivative of 739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: — 

 

4282. προετοιμαζω proetoimazo pro-et-oy-mad’-zo; from 4253 and 2090; to fit up in advance (literally or figuratively): — 

 

 

Yes and they are both from the same lump,

 

God bless,

Tony

[Guest man]

Hi man,

 

There is a difference between the two verses.

 

Ro 9:22  What if <1487> <1161> God <2316>, willing <2309> (5723) to shew <1731> (5670) his wrath <3709>, and <2532> to make <1107> <0> his <846> power <1415> known <1107> (5658), endured <5342> (5656) with <1722> much <4183> longsuffering <3115> the vessels <4632> of wrath <3709> fitted <2675> (5772) to <1519> destruction <684>:

23  And <2532> that <2443> he might make known <1107> (5661) the riches <4149> of his <846> glory <1391> on <1909> the vessels <4632> of mercy <1656>, which <3739> he had afore prepared <4282> (5656) unto <1519> glory <1391>,

 

 

 

2675. καταρτιζω katartizo kat-ar-tid’-zo; from 2596 and a derivative of 739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: — 

 

4282. προετοιμαζω proetoimazo pro-et-oy-mad’-zo; from 4253 and 2090; to fit up in advance (literally or figuratively): — 

 

 

Yes and they are both from the same lump,

 

God bless,

Tony

 

 

 

Say that again in english without all the numbers......please.  

[asper]

 

Hi man,

 

There is a difference between the two verses.

 

Ro 9:22  What if <1487> <1161> God <2316>, willing <2309> (5723) to shew <1731> (5670) his wrath <3709>, and <2532> to make <1107> <0> his <846> power <1415> known <1107> (5658), endured <5342> (5656) with <1722> much <4183> longsuffering <3115> the vessels <4632> of wrath <3709> fitted <2675> (5772) to <1519> destruction <684>:

23  And <2532> that <2443> he might make known <1107> (5661) the riches <4149> of his <846> glory <1391> on <1909> the vessels <4632> of mercy <1656>, which <3739> he had afore prepared <4282> (5656) unto <1519> glory <1391>,

 

 

 

2675. καταρτιζω katartizo kat-ar-tid’-zo; from 2596 and a derivative of 739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: — 

 

4282. προετοιμαζω proetoimazo pro-et-oy-mad’-zo; from 4253 and 2090; to fit up in advance (literally or figuratively): — 

 

 

Yes and they are both from the same lump,

 

God bless,

Tony

 

 

 

Say that again in english without all the numbers......please.  

 

 

 

Hi man,

 

Sorry, perhaps this will make more sense,

 

There is a difference between the two verses.

 

Ro 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted <2675> to destruction:

 

Ro 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared <4282> unto glory,

 

2675. καταρτιζω katartizo kat-ar-tid’-zo; from 2596 and a derivative of 739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: — 

 

4282. προετοιμαζω proetoimazo pro-et-oy-mad’-zo; from 4253 and 2090; to fit up in advance (literally or figuratively): — 

 

 

Yes and they are both from the same lump,

 

Mankind,

 

 

God bless,

Tony

[Enoc]

Gods does not make the choice for you he just knows the choice you are going to make. He knows the end from the beginning.  

[asper]

Gods does not make the choice for you he just knows the choice you are going to make. He knows the end from the beginning.  

 

 

Hi enoc,

 

Yes God knows and he will do his pleasure,

 

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11  Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

12  Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

13  I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

 

 

 

Man does make choices,

 

Ro 3:11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17  And the way of peace have they not known:

18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

 

So why are some born again then?

 

 

Ro 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth

19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Isa 28:13  But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

[Openly Curious]

 

 

The simplest way I can explain it is that whoever you are is the person you were created to be, whether that person is good or evil.  If you were created to be saved, you will be saved, and if you were created to be lost, you will be lost.  Nothing happens by accident, and nobody is really saved by their own decision.  If you made the decision to accept Christ, it is only because he pre-destined that you would accept Christ.  It is because the Father decided to reveal Jesus to you.  If you rejected Christ, it is because the Father chose not to open your eyes to where you would have the faith or desire to get saved. 

 

Hi Butero,  I want to say upfront that I do not believe that God created certain people to be good and created others to be evil.  That to me is obviously seen in the scriptures "before" the fall in the garden.  It wasn't until their eyes were opened that the heart of man was darkened.  It was after the fall when you begin to see evil growing and abounding in the earth more and more.  An example of my point is found in...(Genesis 6:5-7 - And God saw that the wickedness of man was great, in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.  And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repented me that I have made them).    Man began to be shapen in inquity (sin) after the fall not before.  And there are not some born to be good and some to be evil all were born into sin guilty before God.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say that "not everyone is saved by their own decision"  because when in distress I have to call on the Lord or he will not hear me.  Perhaps I mis-reading here but there is an "act" of faith on the part of individuals when it comes to God as well as an "act of will" in regards to one's salvation.  I'll leave it at that for right now thanks for your reply.     

 

It is my belief that it was the plan of God from the beginning that Adam and Eve would give in to the temptation, and eat of the forbidden fruit.  I believe God knew what they would do before he fashioned them.  They made the choice, but God created them knowing what choice they would make.  Yes, you may have called on the Lord in a time of distress, but the only reason you had the desire and faith to do so is because the

 

Father revealed Jesus to you.  In that way, you only made that decision because God created and pre-destinated that you would make that choice. 

 

 

Butero what does your belief in God being all knowing (and He is) have to do with predestination?