Mid-tribulation rapture: why i believe so.

[Spock]

Not sure if I'm too late, but seeing this title, mid trib, has me thinking:

I think we all can agree that Daniels last week is 7 years long and the great trib is 3.5 years long. I know some like retrobyter believe the first half of Daniels week has been played out which leaves one half left, the great trib.

I still haven't bought that one yet, so to me, we still have 7 years to play out.

I believe there will be some kind of affirmation, agreement, treaty, covenant, or something to kick off that final week but no rapture yet.

I also believe the church will be around to see the abomination of desolation, which kicks off the great tribulation.

When you get to the 6th seal judgment, now the wrath of God begins and now the church is Raptured. This will happen in that 3.5 year period but cannot be dogmatic as to when exactly.

So, for now, I'm staying alert, watching for some kind of treaty being signed that obviously affects Israel.

After that, I will be looking for the abomination of desolation and almost simultaneously, the two witnesses- I believe either Moses, Enoch, or Elijah.

Bottom line: this is not exactly a mid trib rapture because that would have to be just before the abomination. Mid trib meaning, in the middle of the seventieth week.

How did I do?

[illini1959]

Hi Spock! Since you mentioned some kind of treaty, could I share something I saw on FB? (I know! I don't put a lot into these things either, but your comment made me think of this)

 

It's "38 Reasons the Bible is True and We Are in The End Times" on raptureforums.com (Is that allowed? for me to put the name of another forum here? If not I will remove it)

 

I guess it is mentioned in there about a treaty to be signed by April 29, 2014 between Israel & Palestinians.

 

Is there anything to this, or is it the usual FB garbage.....?

[Spock]

Hi Spock! Since you mentioned some kind of treaty, could I share something I saw on FB? (I know! I don't put a lot into these things either, but your comment made me think of this)

It's "38 Reasons the Bible is True and We Are in The End Times" on raptureforums.com (Is that allowed? for me to put the name of another forum here? If not I will remove it)

I guess it is mentioned in there about a treaty to be signed by April 29, 2014 between Israel & Palestinians.

Is there anything to this, or is it the usual FB garbage.....?

Thanks. Things have been slow here on prophecy, so I think I will check out this site to see what is going down there. I hope it is not a pre trib rapture site because they seem to be abundant and quite frankly, I don't see it anymore, but I will still mosey on over to check it out.

[Aittv]

If many of the saints/apostles back in the first century were hated/suffered/persecuted for preaching the gospel...Why would there be a pre-trib rapture?

[Donibm]

It rare that I come across a mid-trib person.

 

I an pre-trib ... for the record.

 

I have a question to ask you.

 

1)

IF HE WHO RETRAINS IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IT IS MID-TRIB WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD HAVE BEEN REMOVED AT THE VERY BEGINNING?  Are the saints to be left defenseless?  It is the Spirit that restrains, and lead, and convicts, and even leads to repentance.  Without Him, we are DOOMED.  All of us!  Even the weakest saint who questions if he has the Spirit.  He does.  And we are ALL doomed without Him.

 

2)

Revelation is clear that prior to the Tribulation, "He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches"  So, it seems clear to me that the Spirit AND the Church are on earth prior to the Tribulation.  But, reading on in Revelation (so many people miss this), it says, "He who has an ear let him hear."  WAIT A MINUTE!!  Do you see that?  Did you catch it!?  It is so simple, and yet so profound.  Neither the Spirit NOR the Church are mentioned anymore.  Why?  Because they are RAPTURED.

 

 

3)

There is something that I believe is the root of mid-trib people, and it is Rev 12.  It shows that Israel will be cared for "one thousand, two hundred and threescore days".  They assume this happens in the middle of the Tribulation, and that may be true, but the Scriptures prior to that are NOT about the Tribulation, but the full history of the Jews.  So yes, the Jews will be cared for in the period, but the Bible isn't specifically saying that this is starting right at the 3 1/2 year mark.

 

To make matters worst, we see that right after that Scripture it talks about war in Heaven.  Now, I believe that there is war in Heaven because Satan and the fallen angels are trying to keep the souls out of Heaven (and one day I'll probably create a thread on what Satan is REALLY trying to accomplish).  This obviously would happen right at the Rapture.  And since the verse before it tends to lean ... well, this is the root of mid-trib believers.

 

 

The good thing, however, is that you believe.  If a Christian should learn anything, it is that Israel did NOT enter BECAUSE of her UNBELIEF.

 

Learn from the mistakes of Israel.

 

So ... I feel sorry for the post-trib people.  That is not belief, but unbelief.

 

 

 

"Far be it from You!  Far be it from the God of Creation to punish the righteous along with the wicked!  Far be it from You!  You would do no such thing!" - Abraham

 

 

... and Abraham was right.

 

 

"For the sake of 5, I will NOT destroy the city" - God

 

 

 

God MUST rapture His people to remove them from harms way.  He cannot punish the world with us in the way.

 

Would any of you parents trample over you own babies just to kill a snake?

 

Would you cast gas in the room, and then throw a grenade knowing you little boy is in there ... just to kill a bear?

 

 

The Children of Israel lived on the other side of Egypt.  It was easy for God to punish Egypt and not harm the Israelites.  But now?  Now we are intermingled.  Saints and sinners under the same roof.  How can God rain down His wrath when we are so closely linked.  He MUST remove His people.  He WILL remove His people.

[Donibm]

Because WE are the recipients of the promise ... not them.

 

Because GOD was not to rain down His wrath in THEIR generation, He will do so in the promised generation, so, He must remove His people from harms way.

 

Does that seem wrong to you?  That they would suffer and endure, and the right generation would not?

 

Seems perfectly Just to me.  God will not punish His own children in His wrath.  Sure, He will allow us to endure bad things, but will HE send HIS OWN punishment on His children?

 

No.  Abraham made this clear to us.

 

"Far be it from you to punish the righteous along with the wicked"

 

God answered, "For the sake of 5, I would not destroy it"

 

Abraham could have talked God down to 1.  But since he had already smart mouthed God, he assumed God was angry with him.

 

... and even ONE, God will not punish along with the wicked.

[kingdomwitness]

The Antichrist doesn't gain full power until after the rapture which I believe takes place in the Mid of the tribulation week. Then, the holy Spirit is taken away along with the prepared ones and then the Man of Sin gains full control and dominion.

[rollinTHUNDER]

It rare that I come across a mid-trib person.

 

I an pre-trib ... for the record.

 

I have a question to ask you.

 

1)

IF HE WHO RETRAINS IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IT IS MID-TRIB WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD HAVE BEEN REMOVED AT THE VERY BEGINNING?  Are the saints to be left defenseless?  It is the Spirit that restrains, and lead, and convicts, and even leads to repentance.  Without Him, we are DOOMED.  All of us!  Even the weakest saint who questions if he has the Spirit.  He does.  And we are ALL doomed without Him.

Hi Donibm,

Why does the holy Spirit have to be removed at the beginning, and the beginning of what?

 

2)

Revelation is clear that prior to the Tribulation, "He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches"  So, it seems clear to me that the Spirit AND the Church are on earth prior to the Tribulation.  But, reading on in Revelation (so many people miss this), it says, "He who has an ear let him hear."  WAIT A MINUTE!!  Do you see that?  Did you catch it!?  It is so simple, and yet so profound.  Neither the Spirit NOR the Church are mentioned anymore.  Why?  Because they are RAPTURED.

Or maybe He was no longer speaking in the letters to the seven churches?

 

 

3)

There is something that I believe is the root of mid-trib people, and it is Rev 12.  It shows that Israel will be cared for "one thousand, two hundred and threescore days".  They assume this happens in the middle of the Tribulation, and that may be true, but the Scriptures prior to that are NOT about the Tribulation, but the full history of the Jews.  So yes, the Jews will be cared for in the period, but the Bible isn't specifically saying that this is starting right at the 3 1/2 year mark.

The symbols mentioned in Revelation 12 do not occur on the earth. Read it again, these are clearly signs in the heavens above (sun, moon, stars, planets, constellations).

 

To make matters worst, we see that right after that Scripture it talks about war in Heaven.  Now, I believe that there is war in Heaven because Satan and the fallen angels are trying to keep the souls out of Heaven (and one day I'll probably create a thread on what Satan is REALLY trying to accomplish).  This obviously would happen right at the Rapture.  And since the verse before it tends to lean ... well, this is the root of mid-trib believers.

The war in heaven is still part of the signs in the heavens. But Satan doesn't need to have war in heaven to attempt to prevent souls from entering heaven. He's been trying since day one, but he doesn't have the power to prevent any believer's soul from entering heaven.

 

 

The good thing, however, is that you believe.  If a Christian should learn anything, it is that Israel did NOT enter BECAUSE of her UNBELIEF.

 

Learn from the mistakes of Israel.

 

So ... I feel sorry for the post-trib people.  That is not belief, but unbelief.

I hope you are as prepared as you think. If not, one day those post-tribbers may be feeling sorry for you because you failed to prepare to endure. In Matt. 24:15-22, Christ warned the remnant living in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation. Then in Matt. 24:29-31 we See Christ coming to gather His elect (chosen) or those who are ready (prepared). Continue reading through Matt. 25:30 to find out who the elect are. Hint, they are not the remnant in Judea.

 

 

"Far be it from You!  Far be it from the God of Creation to punish the righteous along with the wicked!  Far be it from You!  You would do no such thing!" - Abraham

 

 

... and Abraham was right.

 

 

"For the sake of 5, I will NOT destroy the city" - God

 

 

 

God MUST rapture His people to remove them from harms way.  He cannot punish the world with us in the way.

 

Would any of you parents trample over you own babies just to kill a snake?

 

Would you cast gas in the room, and then throw a grenade knowing you little boy is in there ... just to kill a bear?

 

 

The Children of Israel lived on the other side of Egypt.  It was easy for God to punish Egypt and not harm the Israelites.  But now?  Now we are intermingled.  Saints and sinners under the same roof.  How can God rain down His wrath when we are so closely linked.  He MUST remove His people.  He WILL remove His people.

Our God is mighty to save! He can save and protect one just as easily as He can a group. But He is also long suffering, so He will not unleash His wrath until the last martyr has been killed. Then He will avenge their blood (Rev. 6:9-11).

So, you might want to think twice before feeling sorry for those who are preparing to endure. They will be ready either way, will you be? And what about your house? Are you prepared to survive the coming economic collapse that will come before the great tribulation? Do you have food, water and essentials to survive when the dollar becomes worthless? This will also happen before they implement the mark of the beast.

Who knows, maybe those who are prepared will feel sorry for those who believed in a pre-trib rapture and never thought they needed to be prepared? That's a gamble that many of us are not willing to take.

Cheers

[Donibm]

Hi Rollin.

 

I don't know how to organize my response like yours - multiple quotes.  But, I'll try to hit each question.

 

ONE:

1 Th 2:7

 

{{Hmmm  I'm pretty sure I was posting Scriptures yesterday, from my job (was saying "allow access") ... but now my copy and paste isn't pasting.  Sorry, but you're gonna have to look it up manually on your end.}}

 

I think a more merited question is ... why would He stay?  If the Church is raptured, and all dead saints from Abel to the last convert, why would the Comforter, who came FOR the Church, stay on earth when the Church is removed?

 

Then of course there is the "hear what Spirit says to the Churches" prior to the Tribulation, but then both Spirit and Church are removed while Tribulation is going on in the earth ... only leaving "He who has an ear, let them hear."

 

 

TWO

I think there is a misconception about the letters.  Yes, they were letters to those specific 7 Churches, but they are not meant for them solely.  They are meant for ALL Christians of ALL generations.  Whomever the cap fits - wear it.  How do we know?  Because of "whoever has an ear, let him - whoever he is - hear what the Spirit says to the ChurchES"  Neither letter was ever meant to be specific to that group or generation alone.  The Comforter is not confined to a singular person or a singular group.  They are long dead and He still says the same thing. We are ALL under the same dispensation, so, those letters apply to Christians in 2014 as well.

 

 

THREE

I don't recall suggesting that I believed the VISION was on earth.  And sun and moon and stars all represent things.  Israel?  Church?  There are commentaries that give their suggestions.  The 1/3 of stars are clearly fallen angels.

 

 

FOUR

I do not believe that the war in Heaven is symbolic.  I believe exactly what the Word says - that there was WAR IN HEAVEN, and both sides FOUGHT and finally Satan is permanently cast down, and because of such, there is great rejoicing IN HEAVEN at him being permanently cast out.  I do not believe any of that is symbolic, but an actual event.  John called the first two things "WONDERS", which, yes, were symbolic of something.  But the WAR IN HEAVEN, he did NOT call a "wonder".  He saw an actual battle. Interesting how this 12th chapter of Revelation fits in with the 12th chapter of Daniel, which also says that "Michael will stand up".  Why would Michael stand?  To do battle.

 

 

FIVE

I prepare my heart for the BIRTHPAINS.  Knowing things will get worst and worst leading UP TO that day.  But that is as far as it goes.  Concerning Jesus, they Disciples asked Him a TWO-FOLD question.  They asked what the signs of the end AND His second coming.  Jesus is answering both.  There is the Rapture, and then there is the Second Coming.  The Second Coming is not for the Christians.  So, what you are talking about is Jesus now dealing specifically with the JEWS, not the rest of the world. 

 

Jesus answered broadly, and He wrapped up the first part of the question and said, "And THEN THE END WILL COME."

 

But observe how He continued to go on talking about events?  He answered, broadly, concerning the Rapture, now He begins to answer the second part of the question, which concerns His Second Coming.  And since the Church is nowhere around, He is focused on the Jews.  You even typed it yourself: those in JUDEA.  Not, all ya'll all over the planet.  Jesus is dealing specifically with the Jews in this part.

 

 

SIX

I'm sorry, but I do feel sorry for those who doubt the delivering power of God.

 

How can God spare the home of a saved woman and unsaved man when the 100 pound boulders fall?

 

How can He spare the saint from bread that costs a days wage (what do you think gas or utilities or mortgage will cost?)?

 

Where is it written that any saint is sealed for protection?  The 144,000 are JEWISH MALES, probably babies or infants.  Only they are sealed and preserved.  144K is less than 0.01% of the words Jewish population (talk about a 'remnant').  Why are they a focus at that time?  Because the Church is gone.  All Satan has left to persecute is the Jews who rejected the Messiah.

 

Even Jesus promised, "You will NEVER see Me again UNTIL you learn to say, 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'"  Yes, Jews will finally say this when they face entire annihilation ... on the plains of Meggido.  THAT is when they turn.  Even Judaism teaches that is when the Messiah comes - when Jews collectively call on Him, or collectively convert.

 

And how in the world can you "prepare" for what is going to be GLOBAL?  If the sea rises, and if islands are moved from their places, and the coastlines shrink, and if you CANNOT buy or sell without the mark ... how can you even rent a cab or buy transportation to get away, or clothes, or medication, not to mention the slow, gruelsome starvation that will immediately follow?  Not only it is, in my opinion, unbilical and uncharacteristic of God, but is it illogical to think that you can "prepare" for the worst time that is to come upon the earth.

 

But no.  He raptured Noah, He will do so again.

 

He promised that He would not send destruction for the SAKE of His own people.

 

He has NOT appointed us unto wrath OR fear ... and your post-trib glorified both.  I do not fear what you do.  I know whose report I believe.

 

What sort of "blessed hope" can you possibly have if you are to endure?  How is enduring a "blessed HOPE"?  It's more like a blessed hopelessness.

 

What's worst, Revelation clearly, clearly shows that there is an uncountable number IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  It is so very clear that these are the righteous souls of mankind.  They have palm trees (and they also represent celebration and completeness), and they are celebrating the Salvation.  Worthy to escape.  The second death (Hell) holds no threat over them.  They are clearly, clearly seen IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  So ... how'd they get there if the rapture is post-trib?

 

... so yes I feel sorry, because post-trib "doctrine" has demonic lies all over it, and such do not know the character of God, or His promises, and they have not learned from the rebellion of Israel, which was unbelief.

[EnochBethany]

The reasons why i believe that there will be a mid-tribulation rapture is because if the tribulation is for 7 years which is divided into 3 and half years each, the rapture may come in between the division. The 1st half years will be for peace which may mean the saints will not suffer at that time and right before the 2nd half year of troubles, Jesus Christ will appear on the air and capture his saints.

Do you have a verse where ekklesia (church) occurs in a tribulation passage?