Yahsway Posted December 2, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/15/1959 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Sorry borntorebel, I meant Noah found grace. But when you think about, so did a lot of the OT patriarchs. King David should have been stoned according to the law for murder and adultry. He found mercy and grace. I bet if we look hard enough in OT scripture, Gods grace (unmerited favor) is written all thruout the ages. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted December 2, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2004 There was a reason David found grace. He called out to God for it. Psalms 32 1 A Psalm of David. A Contemplation. F25 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit. 3 When I kept silent, my bones grew old Through my groaning all the day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was turned into the drought of summer. Selah 5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I have not hidden. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord," And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah 6 For this cause everyone who is godly shall pray to You In a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters They shall not come near him. Psalm 106 6 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble, And He delivered them out of their distresses. 13 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble, And He saved them out of their distresses. 14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, And broke their chains in pieces. 19 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble, And He saved them out of their distresses. 20 He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions. 28 Then they cry out to the Lord in their trouble, And He brings them out of their distresses. 42 The righteous see it and rejoice, And all iniquity stops its mouth. 43 Whoever is wise will observe these things, And they will understand the lovingkindness of the Lord. Job 36:13 "But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them. 14 They die in youth, And their life ends among the perverted persons. 15 He delivers the poor in their affliction, And opens their ears in oppression. 16 "Indeed He would have brought you out of dire distress, Into a broad place where there is no restraint; And what is set on your table would be full of richness. 17 But you are filled with the judgment due the wicked; Judgment and justice take hold of you. Afflliction is what brought me, a rebel, to the Lord. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 The idea of not being under law is confusing, because we need some kind of law so we know how to act, what's right and wrong, etc. I don't think he's suggesting outright lawlessness and anarchy. Under the Law has nothing to do with not being expected to follow God's commandments. As I said earlier it has to do with one's spiritual position before God. Those who are under the law are the unsaved. Those who are saved are under grace. However, Colossians was not correct. He was advocating the complete annullment of the 10 commadments, and the entire Torah. That would negate the New Testament since it is the illumination and amplification of what was written in the Law. The NT cannot illuminate what has ceased to be. He was forwarding the idea that "law" included "the flesh", "my efforts" and generally, "absence of Christ". That is not a biblical defintion of the Torah, that was Colossians' definition. He was making his own definitions and using that a premise to frame his argument. If your premise is false, any conclusion built on it will likewise be false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borntorebel Posted December 3, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 127 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2004 Yahsways and everyone else posting against Colossians posts, why don't you read what he writes? He has said several times in several different posts that he isn't saying we are free to sin all we want. He hasn't once said that since we are under grace, we can do whatever we want and it doesn't matter. Now, Colossians, if you do believe this, you're wrong. To everyone else, Paul had this same problem with the message of grace he preached. That's why he spoke so much about it and defined it so thoroughly. The grace God has given us isn't a license to sin, it's a passport to follow God and enter into His kingdom. It's a gift that we did NOTHING to earn. We don't deserve it in any way. Nothing we do can obtain it, it is a free and gracious gift. If those of you who keep putting words in Colosians mouth would actually stop and read what he is saying without your theological glasses (meaning you're blinded by your own religious dogma) you would see he isn't saying what you think he is saying. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borntorebel Posted December 3, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 127 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2004 Suzanne says, Acts 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. You should read all of what scripture says instead of just doing a cut and paste. Read Acts 21 from v. 17 thru to the end. You'll see what the religious Jews who weren't true followers of Christ had to say about Paul and his teachings. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted December 3, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2004 Suzanne says, Acts 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. You should read all of what scripture says instead of just doing a cut and paste. Read Acts 21 from v. 17 thru to the end. You'll see what the religious Jews who weren't true followers of Christ had to say about Paul and his teachings. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, Ron, I have read the chapter. If you like, I'll cut and paste all of it for yours and others consideration. Paul was in fellowship with these men, and "he did what they asked of him. If you read the verses from 24-26. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted December 3, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2004 Super Jew...I somewhat agree with you. I think that the Christian church (or any church) has no part in certain aspects of the law. It would be hard for a Christian or anyone to follow the Levitical laws since the last Levite to live was Jesus Christ. However, the Old Covenant is the basis for the New Covenant. It is impossible to live a holy life while ignoring the Old Covenant. Many of the rules in the O.C. are simply summarized in the N.C. Um...er...ah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 You should read all of what scripture says instead of just doing a cut and paste. Read Acts 21 from v. 17 thru to the end. You'll see what the religious Jews who weren't true followers of Christ had to say about Paul and his teachings. Why would we care about what the religious Jews who were not believers thought. Paul was following the advice of James. He performed the vow to show that he was not teaching against the Torah of Moses as he had been accused of by believing Jews. He was proving himself to the believing community, not to the non-believing community. The opinons of the non-believing Jews was irrelavent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borntorebel Posted December 3, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 127 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2004 Yahsway says, I bet if we look hard enough in OT scripture, Gods grace (unmerited favor) is written all thruout the ages. What do you think? Actually Yahsway, out of the 38 times the word "grace" is used in the OT, it can only be seen as "unmerited favor" maybe 3 times. Guess it's not as prevalent as you thought. The grace we have from God is a result of Christ's life and death and resurrection. May God's grace, powr and peace be with you, Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borntorebel Posted December 3, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 127 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 3, 2004 Suzanne says, Yes, Ron, I have read the chapter. If you like, I'll cut and paste all of it for yours and others consideration. Paul was in fellowship with these men, and "he did what they asked of him. If you read the verses from 24-26. Yes, Paul did what they asked. When you read all of his writings, you see that Paul would be as a Jew unto the Jew in order to win them, not in order to show them they could continue in their legalistic, unprofitable religious ways to reach God. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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