Guest DRS81 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. The penalty for sin is death, death is the cessation of life. The Scriptures plainly state many times that man returns to the dust at death. I don't know of any place in the Scriptures where the penalty for sin is eternal burning. I see the penalty being death in both the Old and New Testaments. They were judged according to what they had done Butch5. "Man returns to dust" doesn't mean physically, it means spiritually. Show me scripture about returning to dust, and I will prove it for you. The lake of fire is in scripture, fire burns. (Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donfish06 Posted December 31, 2013 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 69 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 17 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/10/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1987 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 Eternal life and living forever are not the same things. The problem stems from people misunderstanding that eternal life as a gift of God refers to a quality of life. You are going to live forever. You will either spend eternity with God in eternal life, or you will spend live forever in spiritual death. Show this in the Bible. Show me where the scriptures say that eternal life is a "quality" of life. This is your assumption and can not be proven in scripture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted December 31, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,431 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,580 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted December 31, 2013 We know by our New Birth what the S/spiritual difference is... alive or dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donfish06 Posted December 31, 2013 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 69 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 17 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/10/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1987 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 Interesting. Where in the Bible are we taught that hell is not eternal? Where is it taught that it IS eternal? Please don't use scripture using "for ever" because as I have shown a number of times on here that doesn't mean eternal, it means "for ages" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted December 31, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted December 31, 2013 We know by our New Birth what the S/spiritual difference is... alive or dead Of a truth, brother. Now a man who has never experienced the New Birth has no frame of reference outside of his carnal mind. How can such a one understand the truth being spoken of here? It would seem down right fanciful for us to be discussing such a thing as spiritual death had one never been reborn. But I say all this knowing that you already know these things. And by the way brother Boone nice to see you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted December 31, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. The penalty for sin is death, death is the cessation of life. The Scriptures plainly state many times that man returns to the dust at death. I don't know of any place in the Scriptures where the penalty for sin is eternal burning. I see the penalty being death in both the Old and New Testaments. They were judged according to what they had done Butch5. "Man returns to dust" doesn't mean physically, it means spiritually. Show me scripture about returning to dust, and I will prove it for you. The lake of fire is in scripture, fire burns. (Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.) No, dust refers to the dust of the ground from which Adam was created. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV) We can see that God created man from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the Breath/spirit of life. Therefore we can conclude that man consists of the dust of the ground and the breath/spirit of God. Solomon said, 17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:17-21 KJV) He said there is no difference between man and the animals at death, the same thing happens to both. The body returns to the dust and the Breath/spirit of God goes back to God. The breath/spirit of the animals goes down. There is nothing left to live on an burn forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted December 31, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I'd suggest that it is a metaphor. There is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches "spiritual death". Paul uses death as a metaphor to show his inability to be free of sin under the law. Spiritual death is not a metaphor. It is the state of all unbelievers. I didn't say "spiritual death" was a metaphor, I said it doesn't exist. I said in Romans 7 Paul uses death as a metaphor. Spiritual death DOES exist. Read Rom. 5:12-21. Spiritual death came into the world through Adam. No it doesn't, that is physical death. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches spiritual death. You won't find the Scriptures teaching that. That idea is brought to the Scriptures, not derived from them. The only spirit in a man is God's and it returns to God upon death, there is no other spirit in a man therefore there can be no spiritual death in a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 No, dust refers to the dust of the ground from which Adam was created. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV) We can see that God created man from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the Breath/spirit of life. Therefore we can conclude that man consists of the dust of the ground and the breath/spirit of God. Solomon said, He said there is no difference between man and the animals at death, the same thing happens to both. The body returns to the dust and the Breath/spirit of God goes back to God. The breath/spirit of the animals goes down. There is nothing left to live on an burn forever. I still do not see proof that our bodies cease to exist after death. I see that we die spiritually because God breathed his spirit into us. Verse 7 refers to the creation and life of man, not eternal punishment. God is spiritual, and since God breathed into man's nostrils, that proves man is also spiritual. You would have to prove that eternal punishment in our bodies doesn't exist using scripture. Good luck. ..you also ignored Rev 20:13 and what it specifically says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted December 31, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted December 31, 2013 No, dust refers to the dust of the ground from which Adam was created. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV) We can see that God created man from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the Breath/spirit of life. Therefore we can conclude that man consists of the dust of the ground and the breath/spirit of God. Solomon said, He said there is no difference between man and the animals at death, the same thing happens to both. The body returns to the dust and the Breath/spirit of God goes back to God. The breath/spirit of the animals goes down. There is nothing left to live on an burn forever. I still do not see proof that our bodies cease to exist after death. I see that we die spiritually because God breathed his spirit into us. Verse 7 refers to the creation and life of man, not eternal punishment. God is spiritual, and since God breathed into man's nostrils, that proves man is also spiritual. You would have to prove that eternal punishment in our bodies doesn't exist using scripture. Good luck. ..you also ignored Rev 20:13 and what it specifically says. No, you're bringing presuppositions to the text. It was the body that was created from the dust, and that's what returns to dust. Apart from God's breath/spirit man consists of nothing but the dust of the ground. That's clear from Genesis 2:7. God's breath/spirit returns to Him upon mans death, what is left to live on? Haven't you ever seen a body decay? How can it continue on when it decays? Ezekiel gives a picture of the Resurrection. KJV Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Eze 37:1-14 KJV) In this passage we see that God is putting sinew and flesh on these bones to form bodies so they obviously didn't continue to exist when they died. What's really significant here is that God says He will put "HIS" breath in them and they shall live. This is the exact same thing we saw in Gen 2:7 God putting "HIS" breath into a man to give him life. It is God's spirit in man and not man's spirit. God's spirit isn't going to die, thus no spiritual death. What's your point about Rev. 20:13? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 No it doesn't, that is physical death. Wrong. Spiritual death is separation from God. The minute Adam sinned, man was separated from God and under the curse of death. Physical death is a symptom of that separation. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches spiritual death. It is a large part of Paul's teaching. The curse of the law is spiritual separation from God (spiritual death). Jesus redeemed us from it (Gal. 3:13) The context of Rom. 5:12-21 is spiritual and is speaking of man's separation from God. That is what spiritual death is. You won't find the Scriptures teaching that. That idea is brought to the Scriptures, not derived from them. The only spirit in a man is God's and it returns to God upon death, there is no other spirit in a man therefore there can be no spiritual death in a man. When a person who doesn't know Jesus dies, his spirit doesn't go back to God. He goes to hell. Man is born spiritually dead and must be made alive by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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