OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth

[Shar]

Some OEC positions believe that Adam was not the first being to appear on the Earth.  Some believe, through various verses in the Old Testament that Lucifer was governing in the Garden of Eden before he led an angelic rebellion.  As a result of the angels sinning, G-d judged the Earth.  There was no redemption plan for the angels, or if other beings existed, they too were not created in the image of G-d.  Therefore, because of the judgment, death and decay did exist before.  They believe the six days of creation are G-d calling forth what already existed, then commencing with the act of creating animals and man, beginning with Day 5, for those creatures who now had the "breath of life" in them.

You are leaving out one very important tenet of the Gap Theory and that is there was a pre-adamite race of human beings, corrupted by the fallen angels.   That part keeps getting left out.

 

Actually, I did not leave it out. See reference "or if other beings existed".

I think the reason that some proponents of the Gap Theory omit that part of the theory is that it forces them to confront the theological problems of why God didn't provide a plan of redemption for those human beings, and it also means that sin existed on the earth prior to Adam, which also contradicts the Bible's claim that sin didn't exist in the earth prior to Adam's fall.

 

G-d did not provide a plan of redemption for angels, nothing would require Him to provide one for beings "not created in His image". The plan of redemption is for beings created in His image - Man.

What specific verse are you referring to that sin did not exist on Earth before Adam's fall? If it is the NT verse that sin came thru one man to all mankind, that is specific to man. Not to any other possible being, not created in G-d image.

The Bible knows of no other human beings prior to Adam.

Many verses to infer differently.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Many verses to infer differently.

 

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

[Shar]

Many verses to infer differently.

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

I will get working on it. Got to find some archived notes.

[RustyAngeL]

It is not in the Bible?Then I do not believe it.

Agreed.  If you cannot back it up with scripture then it is not truth.  By the way no such thing as sin in Heaven.

[Shar]

 

 

Many verses to infer differently.

 

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

 

Shiloh,  I have to do this in several posts.  Each is a different topic.  I cannot show every verse, it would take far too long, but some to think upon.This first post are some verses to show the creation of the stars,heavens and angels were before the creation of the earth.  My next post will give the possible social system that existed on earth before Adam.  And the last will be the resulting judgment from G-d.  I will not be able to do the last two posts until this weekend.  Stay tuned.

[Shar]

John

 

 

 

 

Many verses to infer differently.

 

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

 

Shiloh,  I have to do this in several posts.  Each is a different topic.  I cannot show every verse, it would take far too long, but some to think upon.This first post are some verses to show the creation of the stars,heavens and angels were before the creation of the earth.  My next post will give the possible social system that existed on earth before Adam.  And the last will be the resulting judgment from G-d.  I will not be able to do the last two posts until this weekend.  Stay tuned.

 

Should get post One to you tomorrow.

[Shar]

 

 

Many verses to infer differently.

 

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

 

Shiloh, Here is Post One:

John 1:1 - In the beginning, (Gk. arche = first in order, time and place) was the Word and the Word was G-d….all things were made by Him. 

 

Ge.1:1 – In the beginning, (He. reshiyth = first in order, time and place), G-d created the heavens and the earth.  The word for heavens, “shameh – shamayim” means, the higher realm where the celestial bodies revolve, G-d’s abode and sky.

 

The word “and” is used many times in Ge. 1-2, to separate different acts of G-d.  The “and” of verse 1:2 shows the work of verse 2 is entirely independent of the work in verse 1.  

 

Job 38:7 – The stars and angels were created before the earth.  Previously, G-d asks Job, “where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?  …. “when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of G-d shouted for joy?  “All the sons of G-d”.  This included Lucifer being present as one of the sons of G-d and before his fall.

 

The word “stars” (He. kowkab) means a blazing star. Actual suns.  The phrase “sons of G-d” is often referred to in scriptures as angels. See Job 1:6 & 2:1.  Psalm 19, speaks of how creation speaks, sings and declares.

 

G-d did not create the earth formless and void.  Is.45:18 states “…G-d made the earth not void (empty), but to be inhabited.

 

Ge: 1:2 And the earth was formless and void.  The word “was (He., “hayah”) means to become, come to pass.  Meaning the earth became formless and void.  The word “formless and void” (He. tohu va bohu) means waste and empty.  Something happened to make the earth go from originally created complete to waste and empty.

 

Next Post will deal with Lucifer and the possible social system that may have existed on earth before Adam.

 

[LookingForAnswers]

never mind

Edited January 17, 2014 by LookingForAnswers

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

Many verses to infer differently.

 

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

 

Shiloh, Here is Post One:

John 1:1 - In the beginning, (Gk. arche = first in order, time and place) was the Word and the Word was G-d….all things were made by Him. 

 

Ge.1:1 – In the beginning, (He. reshiyth = first in order, time and place), G-d created the heavens and the earth.  The word for heavens, “shameh – shamayim” means, the higher realm where the celestial bodies revolve, G-d’s abode and sky.

 

The word “and” is used many times in Ge. 1-2, to separate different acts of G-d.  The “and” of verse 1:2 shows the work of verse 2 is entirely independent of the work in verse 1.  

 

Job 38:7 – The stars and angels were created before the earth.  Previously, G-d asks Job, “where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?  …. “when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of G-d shouted for joy?  “All the sons of G-d”.  This included Lucifer being present as one of the sons of G-d and before his fall.

 

The word “stars” (He. kowkab) means a blazing star. Actual suns.  The phrase “sons of G-d” is often referred to in scriptures as angels. See Job 1:6 & 2:1.  Psalm 19, speaks of how creation speaks, sings and declares.

 

G-d did not create the earth formless and void.  Is.45:18 states “…G-d made the earth not void (empty), but to be inhabited.

 

Ge: 1:2 And the earth was formless and void.  The word “was (He., “hayah”) means to become, come to pass.  Meaning the earth became formless and void.  The word “formless and void” (He. tohu va bohu) means waste and empty.  Something happened to make the earth go from originally created complete to waste and empty.

 

Next Post will deal with Lucifer and the possible social system that may have existed on earth before Adam.

 

 

 I will refrain from making any responses until you have presented your case in full.  Let me know when you have completed the last section of information.

[Shar]

 

 

 

 

Many verses to infer differently.

 

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

 

Shiloh, Here is Post One:

John 1:1 - In the beginning, (Gk. arche = first in order, time and place) was the Word and the Word was G-d….all things were made by Him. 

 

Ge.1:1 – In the beginning, (He. reshiyth = first in order, time and place), G-d created the heavens and the earth.  The word for heavens, “shameh – shamayim” means, the higher realm where the celestial bodies revolve, G-d’s abode and sky.

 

The word “and” is used many times in Ge. 1-2, to separate different acts of G-d.  The “and” of verse 1:2 shows the work of verse 2 is entirely independent of the work in verse 1.  

 

Job 38:7 – The stars and angels were created before the earth.  Previously, G-d asks Job, “where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?  …. “when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of G-d shouted for joy?  “All the sons of G-d”.  This included Lucifer being present as one of the sons of G-d and before his fall.

 

The word “stars” (He. kowkab) means a blazing star. Actual suns.  The phrase “sons of G-d” is often referred to in scriptures as angels. See Job 1:6 & 2:1.  Psalm 19, speaks of how creation speaks, sings and declares.

 

G-d did not create the earth formless and void.  Is.45:18 states “…G-d made the earth not void (empty), but to be inhabited.

 

Ge: 1:2 And the earth was formless and void.  The word “was (He., “hayah”) means to become, come to pass.  Meaning the earth became formless and void.  The word “formless and void” (He. tohu va bohu) means waste and empty.  Something happened to make the earth go from originally created complete to waste and empty.  We have already disagreed over the Hebrew, but I will have to go with the most reliable translations of the Bible, where hundreds of scholars agreed that “was” can mean became in this passage.

 

Next Post will deal with Lucifer and the possible social system that may have existed on earth before Adam.

 

 

 I will refrain from making any responses until you have presented your case in full.  Let me know when you have completed the last section of information.

 

POST TWO:

Lucifer and angels

 

Angels created before man and before the earth.

Angels have rank and order.  They can be messengers, protect His servants, serve before the throne, do the will of G-d, lead out before G-d’s presence, conduct warfare, deliver judgment, deliver G-d’s people, participate in worship, have positions of authority, protect and rule nations.

 

 For example, Daniel 12:1.  Michael is called the great prince and ruler who protects and stands for the people – Israel.

There are different types of angels – archangels, cherubs, seraphim, princes, rulers, etc.

 

Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden before the Fall with a possible social system that existed before our current social system.

 

Ezekiel 28:11-15.  This passage is exclusively talking about an anointed cherub and not a mere man.  Words in this passage such as:  He was the model of perfection, full of wisdom and beauty.  He was in the Garden of Eden.  Every precious stone adorned him.  His settings and crown were of gold.  He was anointed as the Guardian Cherub, he was on the Holy Mountain of G-d, and he was blameless in his ways from the day he was created. (NO MAN fits that description)

 

He was anointed, which meant he was a king.  Throughout the Bible, kings are anointed.  G-d set the Cherub over the Earth, in the Garden of Eden, to protect, overshadow it and rule it.

 

Ezekiel 28:15-19…until wickedness was found in him, filled with violence and he sinned.  So, G-d drove him out from the Mountain of G-d, and expelled “you, O Guardian Cherub”. (Jesus even says to his disciples he saw Satan falling from Heaven in Lk. 10:18).  His heart became proud on account of his beauty and his wisdom became corrupted because of his splendor.  “So, I threw you to the earth and made you a spectacle before kings.  By his many sins and dishonest trade, he desecrated his sanctuaries (angels engage in worship) the symbolism of him losing his glory, and being assigned to Hell fire.  “All who knew you among the peoples shall be appalled at you; you shall be terrors, and you will not be forever.”

 

Lucifer ruled a social system here on Earth, in the Garden of Eden, before Adam.  This social system had a structure, trade, kings, and a people.  However, these peoples were not created in the image of G-d.  Many sages of Judaism, who studied the Word many centuries before us, and the Talmud discuss the existence of beings living before Adam.  They are described as human in shape and intelligence, but lacking the neshama “soul” to make them human.

 

This great sin, wickedness and rebellion resulted in judgment from G-d with a devastating flood, different from Noah’s flood.  I will contrast the two floods in the next post.  Will try to post on Sunday.

 

A Previous Social System - 2 Pe.3:5 “But they are ignorant, and forget that long ago by G-ds word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.  By these waters also the world (social system) of that time was deluged and perished (completely destroyed).

 

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 

 

Here we see there was a previous world system that completely perished and the present heavens and earth are different.

 

The prophets of the O.T. often spoke of situations that have a “Near – Far” implication.  Such as Isaiah has numerous references to Antiochus Epiphanies when he set up the desolation of Abomination in the temple, before the Maccabees  revolted and claimed it back, as well as to the future AntiChrist, who will do the same.  The following in Jeremiah could have that kind of implication.

 

Je. 4:23-26 “I beheld the earth and, lo. It was without form and void; and the heavens and they had no light.  I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they quaked, and all the hills were shaken.  I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds fled.  I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities were broken down at the presence of the L-rd, and by His fierce anger”.

 

This present earth has NEVER had man completely gone.  It never will.  However, here there is a reference that “there was no man (He. “ayin” – to not exist).  There were animals, vegetation, and cities mentioned, but all were destroyed at G-d’s fierce anger.  These events occurred; they are not indicated as a possible future event, because man will continue to exist on this earth after G-d’s wrath is poured out during the end times.  This seems indicative of G-d’s judgment on a prior social system on earth before Adam.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Shar