OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth

[Sheniy]

In John 1:1, which I have already referenced numerous times,  "In the beginning".  This Greek phrase means, the very first order, first in place, time, order.  We see in the verse that "in the beginning" was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.  He was with G-d "in the beginning".  Through him all things were made.

 

Now go to Ge. 1:1.  "In the beginning".  The Hebrew phrase, means the same thing...the very first order, first in time, place, order.  We see in this verse G-d created the heavens and the earth.  This is not an introductory phrase to what follows.  It is a statement that He created from the beginning.  The beginning was the Word.  He created the heavens.  The heavens are His abode, the celestial bodies and the sky.

 

Now go to He. 1:10  "In the beginning" - the same phrase.  "In the beginning, O L-rd, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."  By the way, "foundations of the earth" is the building block.  You must lay a foundation before you can build on it.

 

G-d has been creating, since "in the beginning.  He began by laying the foundations of the earth.  If you think He has only been creating the heavens and the earth over the last 10,000 years, then we have to conclude G-d is equally as young.  Definitely not so.  He is the Ancient of Days - The Ancient of All Eternity.

Never heard this... Hold on.

*runs for bible*

Never mind.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8

These discussions really push me to dig deeper into Scripture. Thanks for the inspiration, guys.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

New Earth, particularly YEC, only really became a emerging view around 1972 through Henry Morris in an effort to discredit the fossil record, following his split from the Creation Science Research Center.  Old Earth View is not rooted in philosophy, but in ancient Judaism, science and empirical data that can be observed, especially today, with our advances in space, astronomy, physics, technology, etc.  The physical and fixed laws of G-d's universe are being revealed to us today- birth and death of stars, planets, speed of light, starlight distance, etc.  Your "modus operandi" is always to throw some slight by accusing others of being unbelievers, rejecting Scripture, being homosexual, promoting false doctrine, whenever you cannot fully support YEC, or adequately refute OEC.  Really the YEC has some incredulous assumptions about G-d, who has been creating from eternity past - not just getting around to creating about 10,000 years ago.

 

 

"New Earth, particularly YEC, only really became a emerging view around 1972"

 

??  Did you make this up?  I'm also failing to see the relevance with "when" it emerged ??

 

 

"Henry Morris in an effort to discredit the fossil record"

 

How would you go about discrediting fossils?

 

 

"science and empirical data that can be observed, especially today, with our advances in space, astronomy, physics, technology, etc."

 

And how exactly is this related to OEC?

 

 

"The physical and fixed laws of G-d's universe are being revealed to us today "

 

You meant to say the "Fixed" Laws after Day 6.  Weren't they revealed after Day 6?

 

 

"birth and death of stars, planets"

 

Woe woe there...you started getting on a roll then rolled right off the reservation.  "Birth" of Stars??  Have you been watching the Discovery Channel?  Can you show one EVER? Pics please...and site source.  Can you also explain this in a 2LOT context in the framework of Boyle's Gas Law and Jeans Mass?

 

 

"speed of light, starlight distance, etc."

 

Are you saying that using the Speed of Light the distances to the stars prove an Old Universe/Earth? 

 

 

"whenever you cannot fully support YEC, or adequately refute OEC."

 

Have you been reading these threads?  I haven't see an instance where we couldn't fully support YEC.  Adequately refute OEC?...for instance?

 

 

"Really the YEC has some incredulous assumptions about G-d"

 

And.......For Instance?

 

 

"who has been creating from eternity past"

 

Eternity past?  Are you saying the Universe is Eternal?  Or show where GOD said HE'S been "creating from eternity past"?

 

 

 

Sorry about all the questions.  This is usually the case when ASSERTIONS or Ambiguous points are made without any support.

 

I'll be busy for a good chunk of the day tomorrow so take your time.

 

In John 1:1, which I have already referenced numerous times,  "In the beginning".  This Greek phrase means, the very first order, first in place, time, order.  We see in the verse that "in the beginning" was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.  He was with G-d "in the beginning".  Through him all things were made.

 

Now go to Ge. 1:1.  "In the beginning".  The Hebrew phrase, means the same thing...the very first order, first in time, place, order.  We see in this verse G-d created the heavens and the earth.  This is not an introductory phrase to what follows.  It is a statement that He created from the beginning.  The beginning was the Word.  He created the heavens.  The heavens are His abode, the celestial bodies and the sky.

 

Now go to He. 1:10  "In the beginning" - the same phrase.  "In the beginning, O L-rd, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."  By the way, "foundations of the earth" is the building block.  You must lay a foundation before you can build on it.

 

G-d has been creating, since "in the beginning.  He began by laying the foundations of the earth.  If you think He has only been creating the heavens and the earth over the last 10,000 years, then we have to conclude G-d is equally as young.  Definitely not so.  He is the Ancient of Days - The Ancient of All Eternity.

 

 

You must have mixed up your reply with another post or thread...it happens, these boards can get confusing.

 

Please review my post above....copy and paste the questions that are directly under the GREEN Lettered Phrases (these are your assertions) and you should be good to go.

 

Thanks

[Spock]

In John 1:1, which I have already referenced numerous times,  "In the beginning".  This Greek phrase means, the very first order, first in place, time, order.  We see in the verse that "in the beginning" was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.  He was with G-d "in the beginning".  Through him all things were made. Now go to Ge. 1:1.  "In the beginning".  The Hebrew phrase, means the same thing...the very first order, first in time, place, order.  We see in this verse G-d created the heavens and the earth.  This is not an introductory phrase to what follows.  It is a statement that He created from the beginning.  The beginning was the Word.  He created the heavens.  The heavens are His abode, the celestial bodies and the sky. Now go to He. 1:10  "In the beginning" - the same phrase.  "In the beginning, O L-rd, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."  By the way, "foundations of the earth" is the building block.  You must lay a foundation before you can build on it. G-d has been creating, since "in the beginning.  He began by laying the foundations of the earth.  If you think He has only been creating the heavens and the earth over the last 10,000 years, then we have to conclude G-d is equally as young.  Definitely not so.  He is the Ancient of Days - The Ancient of All Eternity.

Never heard this... Hold on.*runs for bible*Never mind.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8

These discussions really push me to dig deeper into Scripture. Thanks for the inspiration, guys.

I agree sheniy. Shar does inspire me as well.

In the beginning is just that.....in the beginning. I don't think my mind with this body of flesh was meant to comprehend the breath of those three little words.

[a-seeker]

 

 

Difficult problem!!!

 

 

Not if you believe the Bible.  But you are trying to do and end run around the clear and plain statements of Scripture, then yes then you will encounter problems.

 

I disagree with your assessment of tov (good) as "perfect' in the sense we mean it. I'll make two defenses, one of which is bound to annoy everyone.  "Good" in ancient times would not have mean merely "morally" good.  It mean something was "appropriate" or "useful". When God said of each stage in creation that something was "good", He was asserting that one of the two problems at the beginning of Creation had been fixed.  "The earth was formless and void."  That is, the earth was uninhabitable and uninhabited.  Days 1-3 fix the first problem (we have the habitable spheres of the heavens, then sky and water, then earth).  Days 4- 6 deal with the problem of void.  God fills the heavens with luminaries, the sky and sea with birds and fish, and earth with man and animal.  

All of that is fine and good, but I am referring to the phrase, "tov meod" and in Hebrew it is an emphatic phrase that carries the connotation of perfection.  It refers to everything being exactly as God designed it to be, thus to be "perfect" from a Hebraic mindset.  

 

 

God was not implying that things were perfect, without need of improvement.  Indeed, if it were, why set man to "keep his garden".A perfect garden doesn't need to be "kept"....it just goes on being "perfect".

 

God desgined man to work and God made man a steward of the garden.  I don't know what "keeping" the garden at that time would have looked like, as there were no weeds or pests to contend with, but God intended man to take care of it and look after it.  That doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it is perfect. 

 

In Hebew thought, "perfection" means that something is doing what it was created or designed to do.  It doesn't refer to our more Greek concep of asthetics that we attach to the word.  The earth was perfect or else God would not have stopped creating.  It was "tov meod"   ("as good as it is gets).

 

My second defense is more radical yet not less Biblical.  IN 1 Cor. 15 (40?) Paul talks of two types of body, one natural and one spiritual.  The natural body seems to be liable to corruption (i.e. decay) while the spiritual does not.  Yet the scriptural passage he quotes from when speaking of the natural body comes  before the fall--"the first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam a life-giving spirit."  We have natural man vs. spiritual man; but natural man is not here "fallen man".

 

I take from this that there was all along a 2nd stage for Adam and Eve to ascend to.  If we must use adjectives such as "good" and "perfect" then I suggest we describe the paradise in which Adam and Eve lived as good, but not perfect...  God had other plans.

 

clb

 

That is exegetical nonsense.  Sin corrupted man physically and spiritually.   Man is born with a dead spirit that is separated from God.  To say that our spirit is not subject to effects of sin is simply not biblical and it shows that you are misapply the passage from I Corinthians 15.   Paul was comparing Adam with Jesus, hencse he is calling Jesus "the last Adam."   This is not about a comparison between the body and spirit.

 

 

Oh, i presume the chief problem is the idea of animals and other sentient beings suffering.  After all, man was permitted to eat fruit, and animals had to eat something; but no one laments the destruction of grass or plumbs.  Thus there was always "decay" of some sort.

 

When we say that there was no "death" we are talking about creatures in whom there is the breath of life.  There was no death of either man or beast.   Fruits and vegitables that man was allowed to eat are considered biologically, "alive."  but they are not living beings or creatures. 

 

 

So really, it is the notion of sentient creatures dying before the fall that troubles us, right?

 

It doesn't trouble me because I believe the Bible and am not impressed with, or beholden to those who demand that death and decay were part of life before the fall.   I am operating from the position that the Bible really is God's Word and I don't have to modify anything the Bible says to force it to accomodate science.

 

 

You didn't get my point.  The topic (but this was a long time ago) was the perfection of creation before the fall.  You say it was "as good as it gets"....which of course means "as good as it gets" = the possibility but not inevitability of sin, since that was the actual state of creation.

 

I see no way for you out of the despairing conclusion that sin will still be possible in the new heaven.  Either sin won't be possible, in which case we have an obvious contrast between the first creation and the New creation, or it will be, in which case we have an inevitable cycle to look forward to.

 

My point above about about 1 Cor was that Paul does not see the promise of the resurrected body as a promise made only after man's fall.  He implies that the resurrected body was ALWAYS a part of God's plan; and thus "perfection" or a higher state of excellence was intended all along.

 

This theme (of further development) runs right through all of scripture to the very end.  The author of Genesis 1 and 2 depicts creation as a temple: Eden, the garden of Eden, and the rest of the world, i.e. 3 sections corresponding to the 3 sections of the temple.  Throughout Scripture we have glimpses of the future in which all the world be something of a holy of holies.  This reaches its climax in Revelation where the dimensions of the New Jerusalem are perfectly symmetrical---i.e. the same dimensions of the holy of holies.  It is not an unpardonable stretch to suggest that Adam and Eve, as God's images, were given responsibilities correspondning to God as Creator.  It has been suggested by some scholars that their role was to extend the garden of Eden throughout all the earth.  In other words, make the world a holy of holies.

 

As for the question of "keeping and gaurding", these are not only agricultural terms.  They are used of the priestly roles which included gaurding the temple against unclean things.  In Genesis the appearance of these terms foreshadows the coming serpent.  Again, there is a sense of some duty that has not yet, but must, be completed by Adam and Eve.

 

It is not exegetical nonsense.  You are not the only one with training.  This is backed up by very good scholars.

 

always a pleasure

 

clb

Edited February 9, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Ancient Judaism is based on the O.T. - the only scriptures of the Jesus, the disciples, Paul and the O.T saints.  G-d says he is not without testimony.  He references many, many times that He can be observed through his creation.  Science support his creation.  His laws are fixed.  They do not change.  Look to the heavens.  The Ancient of Days' work has been unfolded for us to see, thanks to the knowledge he has given men - Now, particularly through science.

 

Provide for review,  ONE ancient Jewish sage predating the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem that dates the earth as millions of years old.

 

That God can be seen in His creation has nothing to do with the age of the earth. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

In John 1:1, which I have already referenced numerous times,  "In the beginning".  This Greek phrase means, the very first order, first in place, time, order.  We see in the verse that "in the beginning" was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.  He was with G-d "in the beginning".  Through him all things were made.

 

Now go to Ge. 1:1.  "In the beginning".  The Hebrew phrase, means the same thing...the very first order, first in time, place, order.  We see in this verse G-d created the heavens and the earth.  This is not an introductory phrase to what follows.  It is a statement that He created from the beginning.  The beginning was the Word.  He created the heavens.  The heavens are His abode, the celestial bodies and the sky.

 

Now go to He. 1:10  "In the beginning" - the same phrase.  "In the beginning, O L-rd, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."  By the way, "foundations of the earth" is the building block.  You must lay a foundation before you can build on it.

 

G-d has been creating, since "in the beginning.  He began by laying the foundations of the earth.  If you think He has only been creating the heavens and the earth over the last 10,000 years, then we have to conclude G-d is equally as young.  Definitely not so.  He is the Ancient of Days - The Ancient of All Eternity.

 

In the beginning,  (Heb. B'reishis) simply means at the first.  The notion that God has only been around since He began creating is simply not true.   There is no way anyone can argue that based, "in the beginning" that it means that God began creating millions or billions of years ago.  That is simply a stretch and a leap in logic that is unwarranted. 

 

The fact is that we cannot know what God did in the eternal past before the earth was formed.  The Bible doesn't provide us with that information.   Trying to fill in the gaps with ridiculous assumptions that God was creating other worlds or spent the entire dateless past creating our earth or whatever is a fool's errand.  It is a pointless endeavor that leads nowhere.  It is just speculation. 

 

You need to stop letting your theology drive your interpretation.   You need to stop assuming what you are trying prove.  It only leads a person in circles.

[Spock]

In John 1:1, which I have already referenced numerous times,  "In the beginning".  This Greek phrase means, the very first order, first in place, time, order.  We see in the verse that "in the beginning" was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.  He was with G-d "in the beginning".  Through him all things were made.

 

Now go to Ge. 1:1.  "In the beginning".  The Hebrew phrase, means the same thing...the very first order, first in time, place, order.  We see in this verse G-d created the heavens and the earth.  This is not an introductory phrase to what follows.  It is a statement that He created from the beginning.  The beginning was the Word.  He created the heavens.  The heavens are His abode, the celestial bodies and the sky.

 

Now go to He. 1:10  "In the beginning" - the same phrase.  "In the beginning, O L-rd, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."  By the way, "foundations of the earth" is the building block.  You must lay a foundation before you can build on it.

 

G-d has been creating, since "in the beginning.  He began by laying the foundations of the earth.  If you think He has only been creating the heavens and the earth over the last 10,000 years, then we have to conclude G-d is equally as young.  Definitely not so.  He is the Ancient of Days - The Ancient of All Eternity.

In the beginning,  (Heb. B'reishis) simply means at the first.  The notion that God has only been around since He began creating is simply not true.   There is no way anyone can argue that based, "in the beginning" that it means that God began creating millions or billions of years ago.  That is simply a stretch and a leap in logic that is unwarranted. 

 

The fact is that we cannot know what God did in the eternal past before the earth was formed.  The Bible doesn't provide us with that information.   Trying to fill in the gaps with ridiculous assumptions that God was creating other worlds or spent the entire dateless past creating our earth or whatever is a fool's errand.  It is a pointless endeavor that leads nowhere.  It is just speculation. 

 

You need to stop letting your theology drive your interpretation.   You need to stop assuming what you are trying prove.  It only leads a person in circles.

I disagree with you again Shiloh. I think shar has stated this position quite well with authority to support it.

It's obvious you do not agree and have stated such. Why can't you agree to disagree and let the people reading decide for themselves who they believe to be right or wrong? After all, our place is merely to plant the seeds. If you believe your position is God inspired, trust God to give the increase.

[Shar]

 

In John 1:1, which I have already referenced numerous times,  "In the beginning".  This Greek phrase means, the very first order, first in place, time, order.  We see in the verse that "in the beginning" was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.  He was with G-d "in the beginning".  Through him all things were made.

 

Now go to Ge. 1:1.  "In the beginning".  The Hebrew phrase, means the same thing...the very first order, first in time, place, order.  We see in this verse G-d created the heavens and the earth.  This is not an introductory phrase to what follows.  It is a statement that He created from the beginning.  The beginning was the Word.  He created the heavens.  The heavens are His abode, the celestial bodies and the sky.

 

Now go to He. 1:10  "In the beginning" - the same phrase.  "In the beginning, O L-rd, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."  By the way, "foundations of the earth" is the building block.  You must lay a foundation before you can build on it.

 

G-d has been creating, since "in the beginning.  He began by laying the foundations of the earth.  If you think He has only been creating the heavens and the earth over the last 10,000 years, then we have to conclude G-d is equally as young.  Definitely not so.  He is the Ancient of Days - The Ancient of All Eternity.

Never heard this... Hold on.

*runs for bible*

Never mind.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8

These discussions really push me to dig deeper into Scripture. Thanks for the inspiration, guys.

 

We are glad these push you into a deeper study of the Scriptures.  You will be amazed just how deep they go.  C.S. Lewis once stated that the scriptures were deep enough for an elephant to wade in.  He just simply meant that there is much there for the simplest of minds to the most complicated of minds.  None of us can get bored.  Welcome Aboard.  Look forward to your posts.

[Shar]

 

 

In John 1:1, which I have already referenced numerous times,  "In the beginning".  This Greek phrase means, the very first order, first in place, time, order.  We see in the verse that "in the beginning" was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.  He was with G-d "in the beginning".  Through him all things were made.

 

Now go to Ge. 1:1.  "In the beginning".  The Hebrew phrase, means the same thing...the very first order, first in time, place, order.  We see in this verse G-d created the heavens and the earth.  This is not an introductory phrase to what follows.  It is a statement that He created from the beginning.  The beginning was the Word.  He created the heavens.  The heavens are His abode, the celestial bodies and the sky.

 

Now go to He. 1:10  "In the beginning" - the same phrase.  "In the beginning, O L-rd, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."  By the way, "foundations of the earth" is the building block.  You must lay a foundation before you can build on it.

 

G-d has been creating, since "in the beginning.  He began by laying the foundations of the earth.  If you think He has only been creating the heavens and the earth over the last 10,000 years, then we have to conclude G-d is equally as young.  Definitely not so.  He is the Ancient of Days - The Ancient of All Eternity.

 

In the beginning,  (Heb. B'reishis) simply means at the first.  The notion that God has only been around since He began creating is simply not true.   There is no way anyone can argue that based, "in the beginning" that it means that God began creating millions or billions of years ago.  That is simply a stretch and a leap in logic that is unwarranted. 

 

I did not state G-d has only been around since he began creating.  I stated the opposite.  He has been creating from eternity.  It is not a stretch.  If He has not been creating from eternity past, then your proposed logic would cause one to conclude He was totally by himself until the YEC creation postulation.  He did not create angels, His abode, etc. "in the beginning". 

 

The fact is that we cannot know what God did in the eternal past before the earth was formed.  The Bible doesn't provide us with that information.   Trying to fill in the gaps with ridiculous assumptions that God was creating other worlds or spent the entire dateless past creating our earth or whatever is a fool's errand.  It is a pointless endeavor that leads nowhere.  It is just speculation. 

 

Again, more of your insults.  A major component of intelligence is deductive reasoning.  We are given a clue from the verses  of the "in the beginning" verses I cited that He was busy creating. 

 

You need to stop letting your theology drive your interpretation.   You need to stop assuming what you are trying prove.  It only leads a person in circles.

 

Again, more of your insults, coupled with rebukes.  How about just an intelligent, reasonable exchange of ideas without getting personal?  It will go further and be more beneficial.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Shar

[Sheniy]

"There is no such thing as a Hebrew "translation."  There are translations of Hebrew into other languages, but there are no Hebrew translations of the Bible.  Hebrew is an orginal language, not a translation.

 

*facepalm* I meant "translations of Hebrew". Oy.

Sorry. I'm a bit sleep-deprived. 

 

 

 

How many seekers have we pushed away because they couldn't accept this claim of a young earth?

None.  Usually, Christianity is rejected on the grounds that evolution makes more sense.  Many atheists on this board who claim to have been Christians before cite evolution as a major enabler for their deconversion from Christianity.

 

Yeah. Because they couldn't accept the claim of a young earth.

Isn't this arguing in favor of my point?

 

Why would we want to place our faith in a possibility and not in the truth?   There are all kinds of possibilities, but that really isn't something you can anchor your heart to.   As Christians we should be after the truth.

As of yet, I have not met any single person who was actively and consciously seeking deception.  I don't know why anyone would want to.  

 

I was a YEC for decades.  I read the creationist books and websites and argued fervently in favor of a young earth. It was a "truth" I "anchored my heart to" (as you say).  So when that specific "truth" came under fire (again and again), my whole faith was shaken. Hard.

 I took this to God in prayer.  I realized that this wasn't a salvation issue, and that my faith would survive without it.  So I let it go.  IMHO, it wasn't a hill to die on.

 

Maybe I still believe.  I don't know.  I'm on the fence.  And I might just stay here. I have a nice view of both sides.