Is 'soul sleep' doctrinal?

[Guest Butero]

That scripture in 1 Thessalonians is pretty plain in showing man is a 3 part being.  I don't see how anyone can explain that away and make a case to the contrary. 

 

I haven't read through this thread, but as to the general question of soul sleep, I don't see it as scriptural at all.  Jesus spoke of the rich man and Lazarus, and the rich man was in hell immediately at his death and Lazarus was with Abraham in paradise.  Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah.  The Bible states that God is not the God of the dead but the God of the living.  Revelation speaks of saints that were killed during the tribulation being in the presence of God in heaven asking how long till they would be avenged?  There is just too much scripture that shows that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, if you belong to Christ, and that you are in hell if you don't know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, immediately after your body dies.  Your body sleeps in the ground, but your Spirit is eternal.  When a person dies, they "give up the ghost."  The real person leaves the body.  When you see a dead body, you are only seeing an empty shell.  The person has departed. 

[Openly Curious]

 

 

The basis of my argument is that there is nothing in Scripture that teaches man has a spirit other than the breath/spirit of God that we see in the creation of Adam. God formed him from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath/spirit of life and Adam “Became” a living soul. Scripture doesn’t teach any other spirit in a man, nothing.  So there is nothing that can live on after death. If you can make a case showing where the Scriptures teach this I’d be more than happy to look at it. However, all anyone does is give passages from which they’ve “inferred” the idea.  Just because something can be inferred from a passage doesn’t mean that that is what the passage is teaching. There’s nothing in the Scriptures with which an inductive argument can be made.

 

 

What you a failing to recognize is the soul of a man.  You are holding to the belief that man is only a two part being.  I am not saying that man has another spirit other than the breath of God though you seem to think I am. 

 

Man was created a three part being.  In the book of Genesis when God created Adam you have...

1.) God formed his body from out of the dust of the ground hence a body. 

2.) Then God breathed the breath of Life into that body that he created out of the dust of the ground (being the life and Spirit of God) hence a spirit. 

3.) And then man "became" a living soul hence a soul. 

 

Man is a three part being made up of a body, a spirit and a soul.  You can't "become" (a soul) anything in this earth without a body or the life or spirit of God within that body.  The very breath that God breathed into the nostrils of Adam's body in the beginning of the human race the human race is still thriving on that breath and Spirit of God on the inside of our body that we live in. 

 

If the breath or life of the spirit is taken from our body then it return back to God who gave it.  The body would return to dust from which it came. The soul that we became or the person we became in this earth in the life or breath that God gave goes back to God and we cease to exist in an earthly body no longer able to live our lives in the earth .  Without the breath and life of God in our mortal bodies we cannot "become" (a living soul) or be anything in this earth.  Take the breath of God away then our life which is God's to start with will return back to him who gave it to us.  But with a body and the life of God given to our body we can become the soul God created us and ordained us to be in this earth.  And we will all give account of the life we lived in this earth in our earthly bodies whether they be good or bad.

 

No, man is not 3 parts, he is 2. The two parts became the soul. It's like water, water consists of two parts hydrogen and oxygen. The two elements become water. Water is not made of hydrogen, oxygen, and water. The soul of man consists of a body and God's breath/spirit. When God takes back the breath/spirit, the body dies and the soul (body and God's breath/spirit) ceases to exist.

 

 

 

What you are teaching is not soul sleep but "Soul Annilhlation" as you have stated upon death the soul (body and God's/Spirit) ceases to exist.  That would mean the grave is the end period with no resurrection.  As you can't resurrect a soul that doesn't exist anymore.

 

This would and does contradict your stated beliefs and teaching of the resurrection that you've also stated in other of your posts within this thread.

 

You are teaching man is only a two part being and those two parts become the soul.  This then in your teaching would mean that man became a one part being.  That one part would be the soul. 

 

So since we know the body still exist that cannot be true.

 

Now using your water comparision that by mixing hydrogen and oxygen you get water.  That would mean that hydrogen and oxygen would cease to exist as you would have nothing but water.  But that isn't true because both hydrogen and oxygen "exists" without becoming water in the earth all on their own.  We even breath the oxygen. 

 

But when existing hydrogen and existing oxygen are together it is then you will have existing water and that is three not two. 

[Guest DRS81]

Neither of you guys has and neither have any of the commentaries that you’ve posted. I’ve asked several times now for you guys to make a case from the Scriptures, an inductive argument not just a few passages from which you’ve inferred your doctrine.

 

Well that's the thing, we have made a case using scripture, but the veil is over your eyes bro.

 

 

I don't understand what you're trying to get across here. God the Father is spirit and his spirit is alive. Do you understand what that means?

 

 

Yes, I understand that, but it doesn’t address what I said. The word Spiritual does not mean a spirit. It means having qualities of the spirit.  Spiritual does not mean non physical. The Galatians to which Paul wrote were physical people who he calls spiritual. They had spiritual qualities. Paul is not saying they were spirits.

 

The word spiritual does not mean a spirit. What does that even mean? Jesus is not of this world dude. Heaven is not in North Dakota or the center of the earth or the Garden of Eden or anywhere on this old earth. It's in a completely different realm. We cannot see this place physically until we die, but we can experience the love of this place with the indwelling of the holy spirit. When Jesus died, his body AND soul went to heaven to be with the Father. But Jesus promised he wouldn't leave us completely. So he sends the holy spirit to you. HOLY SPIRIT. This is the spirit that lives in believers. This is the spirit of God that is alive in believers.

 

 

You are using the word Jerusalem out of context. Did you not read what I wrote about the first heaven and the new Jerusalem?

 

 

I did, you gave your opinion. There was no Scripture showing what you said is actually the case. Jerusalem is a city on earth and the New Jerusalem will be a city on the earth. It’s the same city, it will be renewed when God restores all things. The New Heaven and New Earth are not different from the ones that exist now, they are the existing ones restored. The same is the case with Jerusalem.

 

Yes there was scripture. (Rev 21:1-2). Yes Jerusalem is a city on this earth right now, but we're talking about Heaven Butch. The new Jerusalem is in the afterlife. The first heaven is a place where Jesus resides and lives right now. We can't physically see this place until we die, but it is there. After judgment day, this first heaven will be washed away and a new heaven will emerge. The new heaven IS THE NEW JERUSALEM. (Rev 21:1-2 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.) The new earth WILL be different than this old earth. This old earth is corrupted with sin, the new earth will be without pain and suffering..(Rev 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.")

 

 

I've asked you three times now, do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from? Why are you avoiding this question?

 

 

I’m not avoiding the question. I don’t see what bearing it has on the issues. Yes, I know what who the Holy Spirit is and where He comes from.

 

and yet you still haven't answered the question. Wow Butch. When you answer the question you will then see what bearing it has.

[Guest DRS81]

That scripture in 1 Thessalonians is pretty plain in showing man is a 3 part being.  I don't see how anyone can explain that away and make a case to the contrary. 

 

I haven't read through this thread, but as to the general question of soul sleep, I don't see it as scriptural at all.  Jesus spoke of the rich man and Lazarus, and the rich man was in hell immediately at his death and Lazarus was with Abraham in paradise.  Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah.  The Bible states that God is not the God of the dead but the God of the living.  Revelation speaks of saints that were killed during the tribulation being in the presence of God in heaven asking how long till they would be avenged?  There is just too much scripture that shows that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, if you belong to Christ, and that you are in hell if you don't know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, immediately after your body dies.  Your body sleeps in the ground, but your Spirit is eternal.  When a person dies, they "give up the ghost."  The real person leaves the body.  When you see a dead body, you are only seeing an empty shell.  The person has departed. 

 

Excellent post and very well said!

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

According to the scripture there is a "distinction" between the body, the soul and the spirit.  Man is a three part being made up of a body, a soul and a spirit. 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray your "whole" spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord. 

 

So there is a distinction between the body and spirit in the scriptures as this verse shows.  

Actually, the Scriptures teach that man is a two part being. The body and spirit (breath of life) together became a living soul.  1+1=2.

 

 

Where are the Scriptures that teach that man is a two part being I would be interested in seeing them?  The scripture I posted above shows very clearly that man has a spirit, a soul and a body even though you might not want to accept the scripture.

 

Gen 2:7 describes the creation of man.  Ecc 3:18-22 describes the death of man. Ezekiel chapter 37 describes the resurrection of man.

 

KJV  Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Eze 37:1-14 KJV)

 

In this picture of the resurrection we see God bringing the bodies back together. Then He says, " and shall put my spirit in you and you shall live". Notice God didn't put "their" spirits back in them He put "HIs" spirit in them and they live. This is the same thing we see in Genesis 2:7 God formed the body and put "His" breath/spirit into Adam. It is "His" breath/spirit we see returning to God when man dies (Ecc 3).

 

 

The scripture in Ezekiel isn't speaking of the resurrection of the righteous dead.  The prophet Ezekiel had a vision from the Lord in how that God was going to restore the nation of Israel.  The prophet Ezekiel at the time of this vision was in Babylonian captivity.  After the Babylonian captivity was over the two tribes of Benjamin and Judah was restored.  This prophecy of Israel coming back together as a nation was fullfilled in it's entirity in 1948.  When the nation of Israel was restored and came back together as a nation.  So the nation of Israel once being destroyed did live again and became a nation again.

 

But what say ye of the scripture I gave you in.....

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly;  and I pray God your  1.) whole spirit  2.) and soul,  3.) and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

There is nothing that you have said that disannuls this scripture.  As it clearly shows Spirit, Soul and Body.

 

Ezekiel is addressing what happens at the resurrection. The nation of Israel was not in graves. It was His people who were in graves. The Scriptures do tell us of God putting his breath/spirit into a nation or a nation living.

 

 

That's because I won't say anything that disannuls Scripture. Yes, it clearly shows body, soul, and spirit. The body and the spirit become a soul. Paul is praying that the whole person be preserved blameless unto the coming of Jesus. The passage says nothing about a man having a soul or a man being made of three parts. You're reading that into the verse.

Look at Scriptures they say Adam, "Became" a soul, not Adam "Has" a soul.

[Butch5]

That scripture in 1 Thessalonians is pretty plain in showing man is a 3 part being.  I don't see how anyone can explain that away and make a case to the contrary. 

 

I haven't read through this thread, but as to the general question of soul sleep, I don't see it as scriptural at all.  Jesus spoke of the rich man and Lazarus, and the rich man was in hell immediately at his death and Lazarus was with Abraham in paradise.  Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah.  The Bible states that God is not the God of the dead but the God of the living.  Revelation speaks of saints that were killed during the tribulation being in the presence of God in heaven asking how long till they would be avenged?  There is just too much scripture that shows that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, if you belong to Christ, and that you are in hell if you don't know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, immediately after your body dies.  Your body sleeps in the ground, but your Spirit is eternal.  When a person dies, they "give up the ghost."  The real person leaves the body.  When you see a dead body, you are only seeing an empty shell.  The person has departed. N

No, the Scriptures don't teach that. Some of the passages you've quoted have already been addressed. The idea that man is  something that lives outside of the body is not from Scripture it is from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism and it contradicts quite a few passages of Scripture. The passages you've quoted here are not saying that man exists outside of the body. They need to understood in the context in which they were written. 

[Butch5]

 

 

 

The basis of my argument is that there is nothing in Scripture that teaches man has a spirit other than the breath/spirit of God that we see in the creation of Adam. God formed him from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath/spirit of life and Adam “Became” a living soul. Scripture doesn’t teach any other spirit in a man, nothing.  So there is nothing that can live on after death. If you can make a case showing where the Scriptures teach this I’d be more than happy to look at it. However, all anyone does is give passages from which they’ve “inferred” the idea.  Just because something can be inferred from a passage doesn’t mean that that is what the passage is teaching. There’s nothing in the Scriptures with which an inductive argument can be made.

 

 

What you a failing to recognize is the soul of a man.  You are holding to the belief that man is only a two part being.  I am not saying that man has another spirit other than the breath of God though you seem to think I am. 

 

Man was created a three part being.  In the book of Genesis when God created Adam you have...

1.) God formed his body from out of the dust of the ground hence a body. 

2.) Then God breathed the breath of Life into that body that he created out of the dust of the ground (being the life and Spirit of God) hence a spirit. 

3.) And then man "became" a living soul hence a soul. 

 

Man is a three part being made up of a body, a spirit and a soul.  You can't "become" (a soul) anything in this earth without a body or the life or spirit of God within that body.  The very breath that God breathed into the nostrils of Adam's body in the beginning of the human race the human race is still thriving on that breath and Spirit of God on the inside of our body that we live in. 

 

If the breath or life of the spirit is taken from our body then it return back to God who gave it.  The body would return to dust from which it came. The soul that we became or the person we became in this earth in the life or breath that God gave goes back to God and we cease to exist in an earthly body no longer able to live our lives in the earth .  Without the breath and life of God in our mortal bodies we cannot "become" (a living soul) or be anything in this earth.  Take the breath of God away then our life which is God's to start with will return back to him who gave it to us.  But with a body and the life of God given to our body we can become the soul God created us and ordained us to be in this earth.  And we will all give account of the life we lived in this earth in our earthly bodies whether they be good or bad.

 

No, man is not 3 parts, he is 2. The two parts became the soul. It's like water, water consists of two parts hydrogen and oxygen. The two elements become water. Water is not made of hydrogen, oxygen, and water. The soul of man consists of a body and God's breath/spirit. When God takes back the breath/spirit, the body dies and the soul (body and God's breath/spirit) ceases to exist.

 

 

 

What you are teaching is not soul sleep but "Soul Annilhlation" as you have stated upon death the soul (body and God's/Spirit) ceases to exist.  That would mean the grave is the end period with no resurrection.  As you can't resurrect a soul that doesn't exist anymore.

 

This would and does contradict your stated beliefs and teaching of the resurrection that you've also stated in other of your posts within this thread.

 

You are teaching man is only a two part being and those two parts become the soul.  This then in your teaching would mean that man became a one part being.  That one part would be the soul. 

 

So since we know the body still exist that cannot be true.

 

Now using your water comparision that by mixing hydrogen and oxygen you get water.  That would mean that hydrogen and oxygen would cease to exist as you would have nothing but water.  But that isn't true because both hydrogen and oxygen "exists" without becoming water in the earth all on their own.  We even breath the oxygen. 

 

But when existing hydrogen and existing oxygen are together it is then you will have existing water and that is three not two. 

 

You're argument doesn't follow. The body and the Breath/spirit of God do not cease to exist when they come together to become a soul any more than the oxygen and hydrogen cease to exist when they form water. Wate her ceases to exist.  

 

God can resurrect a soul that has ceased to exist just has he can resurrect a body that has decayed and has ceased to exist. Yes, Annihilationism is what the Scriptures teach as the destiny of the wicked

[Guest DRS81]

Look at Scriptures they say Adam, "Became" a soul, not Adam "Has" a soul.

 

But Adam became a body,  became a spirit and became a soul because of God. Adam has these things because of God.

[Guest Butero]

 

That scripture in 1 Thessalonians is pretty plain in showing man is a 3 part being.  I don't see how anyone can explain that away and make a case to the contrary. 

 

I haven't read through this thread, but as to the general question of soul sleep, I don't see it as scriptural at all.  Jesus spoke of the rich man and Lazarus, and the rich man was in hell immediately at his death and Lazarus was with Abraham in paradise.  Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah.  The Bible states that God is not the God of the dead but the God of the living.  Revelation speaks of saints that were killed during the tribulation being in the presence of God in heaven asking how long till they would be avenged?  There is just too much scripture that shows that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, if you belong to Christ, and that you are in hell if you don't know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, immediately after your body dies.  Your body sleeps in the ground, but your Spirit is eternal.  When a person dies, they "give up the ghost."  The real person leaves the body.  When you see a dead body, you are only seeing an empty shell.  The person has departed. N

No, the Scriptures don't teach that. Some of the passages you've quoted have already been addressed. The idea that man is  something that lives outside of the body is not from Scripture it is from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism and it contradicts quite a few passages of Scripture. The passages you've quoted here are not saying that man exists outside of the body. They need to understood in the context in which they were written. 

 

The rich man and Lazarus, as well as Abraham were shown to be existing outside the body by Jesus.  The people that were killed in Revelation were also alive outside the body.  There is no getting around that.  You are making a huge stretch to compare what I am saying to Gnosticism, that teaches that what we see in the natural is what is not real.  I have read some gnostic writings, and your comparison is a ridiculous attempt to demonize with the comparison.  For those who want to know what the gnostics taught, there is a book called, "The Other Bible" that includes a lot of their teachings.  Philosophers teach a lot of different things, and I feel confident in saying that there are just as many Greek Philosophers that don't believe in any after life as those who teach the spirit can exist outside the body.  I could turn this around and say that your teachings remind me of the Sadducees, because there are some similarities. 

[Butch5]

Well that's the thing, we have made a case using scripture, but the veil is over your eyes bro.

 

No, you haven’t. All you’ve done is present a few passages and inferred your doctrine from them. On the other hand I said that man does not have something that lives on after death. Then I went to the Scriptures and showed the creation of man and what he consists of and showed the death of a man and what happens to those parts with which he was created. The passages I posted clearly stated what I said, it was not by way of inference.

 

Show me a single passage of Scripture that says man is a three part being or that man was created by combining a body, a spirit, and a soul.  You won’t be able to find such a passage because the Scriptures don’t teach that. Since it can’t be found in Scripture that only thing left is to infer the doctrine from passages that don’t actually address the issue which is what those holding you position do and then they claim to have made a case.

 

The word spiritual does not mean a spirit. What does that even mean? Jesus is not of this world dude. Heaven is not in North Dakota or the center of the earth or the Garden of Eden or anywhere on this old earth. It's in a completely different realm. We cannot see this place physically until we die, but we can experience the love of this place with the indwelling of the holy spirit. When Jesus died, his body AND soul went to heaven to be with the Father. But Jesus promised he wouldn't leave us completely. So he sends the holy spirit to you. HOLY SPIRIT. This is the spirit that lives in believers. This is the spirit of God that is alive in believers.

 

What does this have to do with what I said?
 

Yes there was scripture. (Rev 21:1-2). Yes Jerusalem is a city on this earth right now, but we're talking about Heaven Butch. The new Jerusalem is in the afterlife. The first heaven is a place where Jesus resides and lives right now. We can't physically see this place until we die, but it is there. After judgment day, this first heaven will be washed away and a new heaven will emerge. The new heaven IS THE NEW JERUSALEM. (Rev 21:1-2 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.) The new earth WILL be different than this old earth. This old earth is corrupted with sin, the new earth will be without pain and suffering..(Rev 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.")

There is one heaven and one earth, they will be restored. Notice the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven. The imagery is that it is on earth. It is the Jerusalem that exists now in its restored state. This is made clear all over the Scriptures. Peter speaks of it.

 

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Act 3:20-21 KJV)

 

KJV  Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Rev 21:5 KJV)

 

Notice He said, I make all things new, not I make all new things. All things will be made new.

and yet you still haven't answered the question. Wow Butch. When you answer the question you will then see what bearing it has.

 

I did answer the question. You asked if I knew what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from come  and I answered Yes, I know who the Holy Spirit is and where He comes from.