Is 'soul sleep' doctrinal?

[Butch5]

 

Where does Scripture teach that there is something in man that lives on between death and the resurrection?

 

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

 

"Non parem Paulo veniam require, Gratiam Petri neque posco, sed quam In crucis ligno dederis latroni http://biblehub.com/luke/23-43.htm

Sedulus oro." This striking verse is engraved on the tomb of the great Copernicus, and alludes to this prayer and its answer. Paradise. This is the only instance we have of our Lord's using this well-known word. In the ordinary language used by the Jews, of the unseen world, it signifies the" Garden of Eden," or "(Abraham's bosom/also read Luke 16:19-31 DRS81);" it represented the locality where the souls of the righteous would find a home, after death separated soul and body. The New Testament writers, Luke and Paul and John, use it (Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:5; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7). To Luke and Paul, probably, this was a memory of the word spoken on the cross, which they alone record in their Gospel. It may have been told Luke by the Mother of sorrows herself. John, who uses it in his Revelation, doubtless heard it himself as he stood at the foot of the cross. Paradeisos is derived from the Persian word pardes, which signifies a park or garden.

 

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/luke/23-43.htm

and which, when enjoyed, will be for ever: and this he was to enter upon that very day; which shows, that Christ's soul did not descend into hell, locally and literally considered, or into the "Limbus Patrum", the Papists talk of, to fetch the souls of the patriarchs thence, but as soon as it was separated from the body was taken up into heaven; and also, that the souls of departed saints are immediately, upon their separation from the body, there; which was the case of this wonderful instance of the grace of God; and shows the swiftness of the soul, or the velocity of angels in conveying it thither immediately: and this agrees with the sense of the Jews, who say (b), that

"the souls of the fathers, or patriarchs have rest, and in a moment, immediately enter into their separate places, or apartments, and not as the rest of the souls; of whom it is said, all the twelve months the soul ascends and descends, (goes to and fro,) but the souls of the fathers, , "immediately, upon their separation", return to God that gave them.''

 

Eccl 3:21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/3-21.htm

But as none can fully comprehend, so few consider properly, the difference between the rational soul of man, and the spirit or life of the beast. The spirit of man goes upward, to be judged, and is then fixed in an unchangeable state of happiness or misery.

 

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/3-21.htm

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward?.... There is indeed a difference between a man and a beast; though they have one breath, they have not one spirit or soul; man has a rational and immortal soul, which, when he dies, goes upwards to God that gave it; to be judged by him, and disposed of by him, in its proper apartment, until the day of the resurrection of the body;

 

Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 

 

Pulpit Commentary http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/12-7.htm

he comes to the conclusion that there is a future for the individual soul, and that it shall be brought into immediate connection with a personal God.

rather the sentence signifies that death, releasing the spirit, or soul, from the earthly tabernacle, places it in the more immediate presence of God, there, as the Targum paraphrases the passage, returning to stand in judgment before its Creator.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/12-7.htm

Now at death the soul, or spirit of man, returns to God; which if understood of the souls of men in general, it means that at death they return to God the Judge of all, who passes sentence on them, and orders those that are good to the mansions of bliss and happiness, and those that are evil to hell and destruction. So the Targum adds,

this shows that the soul is immortal, and dies not with the body, nor sleeps in the grave with it, but is immediately with God.

 

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-8.htm

But believing souls shall be clothed with garments of praise, with robes of righteousness and glory.

This shows clearly the happiness to be enjoyed by the souls of believers when absent from the body, and where Jesus makes known his glorious presence. We are related to the body and to the Lord; each claims a part in us. But how much more powerfully the Lord pleads for having the soul of the believer closely united with himself! Thou art one of the souls I have loved and chosen; one of those given to me. What is death, as an object of fear, compared with being absent from the Lord!

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-8.htm

to be absent from the body; that is, to die, to depart out of this world. The interval between death, and the resurrection, is a state of absence from the body, during which time the soul is disembodied, and exists in a separate state; not in a state of inactivity and sleep, for that would not be desirable, but of happiness and glory, enjoying the presence of God, and praising of him, believing and waiting for the resurrection of the body, when both will be united together again; and after that there will be no more absence, neither from the body, nor from the Lord:

 

Php 1:23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

 

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/philippians/1-23.htm

Death is not an annihilation of men, neither of soul nor body; it is a separation of them,

but after death they are immediately with him, where he is in his human nature; and their souls in their separate state continue with him till the resurrection morn, when their bodies will be raised and reunited to their souls, and be both for ever with him,

if souls are not with him, they are with devils and damned spirits, in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: and it is also manifest that souls do not sleep with the body in the grave until the resurrection; the souls of the saints are immediately with Christ, in the enjoyment of his presence, in happiness and glory, hoping, believing, and waiting for the resurrection of their bodies.

 

Let me ask you, which of these passages says that man has a spirit that lives on after death? These commentaries are leading you astray. Seriously, you should consider rejecting them. The very first commentary says that Jesus only used the word Paradise once, that's not correct. Let's look at the passage about the thief. Firstly, in the Greek text there was no comma, it was added by the translators. If you move the comma one placed to the right it changes the meaning of the sentence.

 

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." OR Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."  Notice I've moved the comma from before the word today to after the word today. Either placement would correct in the Greek text. However, by moving the comma it changes the meaning of the sentence. Instead of them being in paradise "today" moving the comma has Jesus saying it today. Since the passage could be understood correctly either way it cannot be used to prove either side of the case.  

 

Additionally, do a word study of the word "Paradise" what you'll find is that it means a garden, not a subterranean place of the dead. One has to ask the question, did Jesus answer the question the thief asked or did He say something totally irrelevant to the question? The thief wasn't asking about where he'd be when he died, he asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom. The thief was concerned about entering the kingdom of God not where he'd be when he died. Notice his statement, "when you enter into your kingdom."  Jesus' response what that the thief would be with Him in "Paradise." It could be inferred from this that Paradise is the kingdom of God, however, we don't need to infer it because the Scriptures tell us what it is.

 

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7 KJV)

 

The tree of life is in the Garden of Eden which is the Paradise of God. It's not some place where the spirit of the dead go, it's a place where the resurrected saints will live. This Paradise of God is where Jesus said He would be with the thief.

 

Do a search of the word Paradise. In the Greek OT it appears in 45 times in 42 verses and not once does it refer to a place of the dead. It's a garden and many times the garden of God, Eden.  We can do the same thing with the other passages that you've posted. You'd be better served to see how the Scriptures use the words than reading commentaries. I mean, why do you care one some guy from the 1500's thinks? Do you know anything about John Gill? Do you know if he knew Greek and /or Hebrew? Do you know what philosophy he came out of, if any? For instance, Calvin came out of Stoicism, so it's natural that his former beliefs are going to affect his view of the Scriptures. It's not different with Gill. As I said, there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches that man lives apart from the body. If you look at all of the passages that you've posted you'll see that none of them actually state what you've claimed but rather you've inferred that idea from them because you already believed that man can live outside of the body and those passage seem to you to support that idea. However, that doesn't mean that's what they are teaching.

[Guest DRS81]

No, man is not 3 parts, he is 2. The two parts became the soul.

 

No, that's not biblical. The body consists of three parts. The soul and spirit have two different functions. The spirit controls the conscience, intuition and communion, and the soul controls mind, will and emotions. (Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.)

 

Firstly, in the Greek text there was no comma, it was added by the translators. If you move the comma one placed to the right it changes the meaning of the sentence.

 

But there's like 21 different versions here that all have the comma before today. Who are you trying to convince...http://biblehub.com/luke/23-43.htm

 

It's not some place where the spirit of the dead go, it's a place where the resurrected saints will live.

 

No, that's not biblical. It's a place where the resurrected saints will live yes, but you have the wrong location. Paradise is in heaven inside the kingdom of God, not of this world. Not only that, the ressurected saints will also be living on the new earth after judgment day.

 

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7 KJV)

 

The tree of life is in the Garden of Eden which is the Paradise of God. It's not some place where the spirit of the dead go, it's a place where the resurrected saints will live. This Paradise of God is where Jesus said He would be with the thief.

 

Yes the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden in Genesis which is the Paradise of God, but where does Paradise come from Butch, It comes from the throne of God in heaven. The tree of life also describes the sanctification of the Holy Spirit through streams of earthly comfort, coming from heaven. I thought you knew this. (Rev 22:2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.)

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/...lation/22-2.htm

22:1-5 All streams of earthly comfort are muddy; but these are clear, and refreshing. They give life, and preserve life, to those who drink of them, and thus they will flow for evermore. These point to the quickening and sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit, as given to sinners through Christ. The Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Son, applies this salvation to our souls by his new-creating love and power. The trees of life are fed by the pure waters of the river that comes from the throne of God. The presence of God in heaven, is the health and happiness of the saints. This tree was an emblem of Christ, and of all the blessings of his salvation; and the leaves for the healing of the nations, mean that his favour and presence supply all good to the inhabitants of that blessed world. The devil has no power there; he cannot draw the saints from serving God, nor can he disturb them in the service of God. God and the Lamb are here spoken of as one. Service there shall be not only freedom, but honour and dominion. There will be no night; no affliction or dejection, no pause in service or enjoyment: no diversions or pleasures or man's inventing will there be wanted. How different all this from gross and merely human views of heavenly happiness, even those which refer to pleasures of the mind!

[Butch5]

DRS81, on 25 Jan 2014 - 3:32 PM, said:

No, that's not biblical. The body consists of three parts. The soul and spirit have two different functions. The spirit controls the conscience, intuition and communion, and the soul controls mind, will and emotions. (Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.)

Yes, it is Biblical. Just read Gen 2:7 it’s crystal clear. Do you know what Hebrews 4:12 is saying?

But there's like 21 different versions here that all have the comma before today. Who are you trying to convince...http://biblehub.com/luke/23-43.htm

 

I’m not trying to convince anyone, I’m just stating fact. There was no punctuation in the Greek text. Punctuation was added by the translators. As I said, the comma can be placed in either place and be correct in the Greek text. The translators place it where they “believe” it should go, that doesn't mean it’s correct.

 

Let me ask you, has Jesus come into His kingdom? Is Jesus’ kingdom in some subterranean place under the earth? The Scriptures say that Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days, is that where His kingdom is and where the thief went? As I said, the thief wasn't asking where he was going when he died. He wanted to go into the kingdom. If paradise is someplace in the earth where the dead go then Jesus didn’t answer the question that the thief wanted to know.

If Jesus hasn't come into His kingdom yet then the thief hasn’t entered Paradise yet. Jesus told the thief that he would be in paradise which is a garden. He didn’t tell the thief you’ll be underground.

No, that's not biblical. It's a place where the resurrected saints will live yes, but you have the wrong location. Paradise is in heaven inside the kingdom of God, not of this world. Not only that, the ressurected saints will also be living on the new earth after judgment day.

 

Actually, it’s quite Biblical. Paradise is not in Heaven it is on the earth, it is the Garden of Eden. There is nothing in the Scriptures that teach believers will go to heaven when they die either that is another error that has entered the Church through Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

The earth will be restored and Paradise will be on it.

Yes the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden in Genesis which is the Paradise of God, but where does Paradise come from Butch, It comes from the throne of God in heaven. The tree of life also describes the sanctification of the Holy Spirit through streams of earthly comfort, coming from heaven. I thought you knew this. (Rev 22:2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.)

 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/...lation/22-2.htm

22:1-5 All streams of earthly comfort are muddy; but these are clear, and refreshing. They give life, and preserve life, to those who drink of them, and thus they will flow for evermore. These point to the quickening and sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit, as given to sinners through Christ. The Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Son, applies this salvation to our souls by his new-creating love and power. The trees of life are fed by the pure waters of the river that comes from the throne of God. The presence of God in heaven, is the health and happiness of the saints. This tree was an emblem of Christ, and of all the blessings of his salvation; and the leaves for the healing of the nations, mean that his favour and presence supply all good to the inhabitants of that blessed world. The devil has no power there; he cannot draw the saints from serving God, nor can he disturb them in the service of God. God and the Lamb are here spoken of as one. Service there shall be not only freedom, but honour and dominion. There will be no night; no affliction or dejection, no pause in service or enjoyment: no diversions or pleasures or man's inventing will there be wanted. How different all this from gross and merely human views of heavenly happiness, even those which refer to pleasures of the mind!

 

I’m sorry, that’s just nonsense. It’s this kind of nonsense that leads people astray. You really should search the Scriptures rather than these commentaries. The fact that one can find commentaries that oppose each other on the same passage is reason enough to forego reading them.

[Guest DRS81]

 

DRS81, on 25 Jan 2014 - 3:32 PM, said:

No, that's not biblical. The body consists of three parts. The soul and spirit have two different functions. The spirit controls the conscience, intuition and communion, and the soul controls mind, will and emotions. (Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.)

Yes, it is Biblical. Just read Gen 2:7 it’s crystal clear. Do you know what Hebrews 4:12 is saying?

 

You're summing up the study of soul and spirit using one scripture. That's not very realistic now is it. Yes I know what Hebrews 4:12 is saying. Soul and spirit are two different words with two different meanings and two different functions Butch. If they weren't the Bible would just use one or the other, but the reason scripture uses both is because both have different functions.

 

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-12.htm

so His word reaches as far as to the most intimate and accurate knowledge of man's most hidden parts, feelings, and thoughts, dividing, that is, distinguishing what is spiritual from what is carnal and animal in him, the spirit from the soul: so Pr 20:27. As the knife of the Levitical priest reached to dividing parts, closely united as the joints of the limbs, and penetrated to the innermost parts, as the marrows (the Greek is plural); so the word of God divides the closely joined parts of man's immaterial being, soul and spirit, and penetrates to the innermost parts of the spirit. The clause (reaching even to) "both the joints and marrow" is subordinate to the clause, "even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit." (In the oldest manuscripts as in English Version, there is no "both," as there is in the clause "both the joints and … which marks the latter to be subordinate). An image (appropriate in addressing Jews) from the literal dividing of joints, and penetrating to, so as to open out, the marrow, by the priest's knife, illustrating the previously mentioned spiritual "dividing of soul from spirit," whereby each (soul as well as spirit) is laid bare and "naked" before God; this view accords with Heb 4:13. Evidently "the dividing of the soul from the spirit" answers to the "joints" which the sword, when it reaches unto, divides asunder, as the "spirit" answers to the innermost "marrow."

 

Let me ask you, has Jesus come into His kingdom? If Jesus hasn't come into His kingdom yet then the thief hasn’t entered Paradise yet. Jesus told the thief that he would be in paradise which is a garden. He didn’t tell the thief you’ll be underground.Let me ask you, has Jesus come into His kingdom? Is Jesus’ kingdom in some subterranean place under the earth? The Scriptures say that Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days, is that where His kingdom is and where the thief went? As I said, the thief wasn't asking where he was going when he died. He wanted to go into the kingdom. If paradise is someplace in the earth where the dead go then Jesus didn’t answer the question that the thief wanted to know.

 

No that's not biblical. Jesus has in fact come into the kingdom of God. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God in heaven right now. When Jesus died, his body AND soul resurrected into heaven. Jesus is ALIVE in heaven right now, and he is the intercessor between the Father and humanity. Why do you think people pray Butch. Scripture plainly states that the kingdom of God is not of this world.

 

 

No, that's not biblical. It's a place where the resurrected saints will live yes, but you have the wrong location. Paradise is in heaven inside the kingdom of God, not of this world. Not only that, the ressurected saints will also be living on the new earth after judgment day.

 

Actually, it’s quite Biblical. Paradise is not in Heaven it is on the earth, it is the Garden of Eden. There is nothing in the Scriptures that teach believers will go to heaven when they die either that is another error that has entered the Church through Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

The earth will be restored and Paradise will be on it.

 

Incorrect. Wow. Actually born again christians experience a piece of heaven through anointing, teaching and conviction of the Holy Spirit. Christians don't have to wait until they die to experience the love of God, the holy spirit already indwells them and the holy spirit is from heaven. You didn't know that?

 

 

Yes the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden in Genesis which is the Paradise of God, but where does Paradise come from Butch, It comes from the throne of God in heaven. The tree of life also describes the sanctification of the Holy Spirit through streams of earthly comfort, coming from heaven. I thought you knew this. (Rev 22:2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.)

 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/...lation/22-2.htm

22:1-5 All streams of earthly comfort are muddy; but these are clear, and refreshing. They give life, and preserve life, to those who drink of them, and thus they will flow for evermore. These point to the quickening and sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit, as given to sinners through Christ. The Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Son, applies this salvation to our souls by his new-creating love and power. The trees of life are fed by the pure waters of the river that comes from the throne of God. The presence of God in heaven, is the health and happiness of the saints. This tree was an emblem of Christ, and of all the blessings of his salvation; and the leaves for the healing of the nations, mean that his favour and presence supply all good to the inhabitants of that blessed world. The devil has no power there; he cannot draw the saints from serving God, nor can he disturb them in the service of God. God and the Lamb are here spoken of as one. Service there shall be not only freedom, but honour and dominion. There will be no night; no affliction or dejection, no pause in service or enjoyment: no diversions or pleasures or man's inventing will there be wanted. How different all this from gross and merely human views of heavenly happiness, even those which refer to pleasures of the mind!

 

I’m sorry, that’s just nonsense. It’s this kind of nonsense that leads people astray. You really should search the Scriptures rather than these commentaries. The fact that one can find commentaries that oppose each other on the same passage is reason enough to forego reading them.

 

Rev 2:7 is also talking about heaven Butch. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from?

[Butch5]

DRS81, on 25 Jan 2014 - 3:32 PM, said:
]You're summing up the study of soul and spirit using one scripture. That's not very realistic now is it. Yes I know what Hebrews 4:12 is saying. Soul and spirit are two different words with two different meanings and two different functions Butch. If they weren't the Bible would just use one or the other, but the reason scripture uses both is because both have different functions.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-12.htm
so His word reaches as far as to the most intimate and accurate knowledge of man's most hidden parts, feelings, and thoughts, dividing, that is, distinguishing what is spiritual from what is carnal and animal in him, the spirit from the soul: so Pr 20:27. As the knife of the Levitical priest reached to dividing parts, closely united as the joints of the limbs, and penetrated to the innermost parts, as the marrows (the Greek is plural); so the word of God divides the closely joined parts of man's immaterial being, soul and spirit, and penetrates to the innermost parts of the spirit. The clause (reaching even to) "both the joints and marrow" is subordinate to the clause, "even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit." (In the oldest manuscripts as in English Version, there is no "both," as there is in the clause "both the joints and … which marks the latter to be subordinate). An image (appropriate in addressing Jews) from the literal dividing of joints, and penetrating to, so as to open out, the marrow, by the priest's knife, illustrating the previously mentioned spiritual "dividing of soul from spirit," whereby each (soul as well as spirit) is laid bare and "naked" before God; this view accords with Heb 4:13. Evidently "the dividing of the soul from the spirit" answers to the "joints" which the sword, when it reaches unto, divides asunder, as the "spirit" answers to the innermost "marrow."

 

I’m summing up a study of soul and spirit with one verse? If that was the case it’s still one more than you’ve given. However, no, I’ve studied the words and their use through the Scriptures. I’ve given you multiple passages of Scripture showing that a soul requires a body. All you’ve presented is the opinions of commentators. Commentators which contradict what the Scriptures say. Do a study of “Ruach”, “Neshamah”, and “Nephesh.”

I asked if you know what the passage meant and you post what the JFB commentary thinks the passage means.

 

What is the word of God that divides soul and spirit?

No that's not biblical. Jesus has in fact come into the kingdom of God. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God in heaven right now. When Jesus died, his body AND soul resurrected into heaven. Jesus is ALIVE in heaven right now, and he is the intercessor between the Father and humanity. Why do you think people pray Butch. Scripture plainly states that the kingdom of God is not of this world.

 

What I’ve said is Biblical. Not of this world doesn’t mean not in this world. A meteor is not of this world, however, when one picks one  up it is in this world. His statement reads, ‘my kingdom is not out of this world’. It isn’t His authority comes from God not the world.

Ok, are you saying that we can now go to Jerusalem and see Jesus and the thief? Is Jesus in Jerusalem at this moment with the thief?
 

Incorrect. Wow. Actually born again christians experience a piece of heaven through anointing, teaching and conviction of the Holy Spirit. Christians don't have to wait until they die to experience the love of God, the holy spirit already indwells them and the holy spirit is from heaven. You didn't know that?

 

The Holy Spirit being from Heaven has nothing to do with the issue. Scripture doesn’t teach that people go to Heaven. The Scriptures teach that when man dies he returns to the dust and awaits the resurrection at which point he is judged and either enters the kingdom of God which is on earth or is cast into the Lake of fire or Gehenna which is also on earth.

Rev 2:7 is also talking about heaven Butch. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from?

No, it’s not. Paradise is the Garden of Eden which was on earth ad which God will restore when He restores all things. The Scriptures don’t teach that. Again, you really should disregard those commentaries they full of erroneous teachings.

[Guest DRS81]

I asked if you know what the passage meant and you post what the JFB commentary thinks the passage means.I’m summing up a study of soul and spirit with one verse? If that was the case it’s still one more than you’ve given. However, no, I’ve studied the words and their use through the Scriptures. I’ve given you multiple passages of Scripture showing that a soul requires a body. All you’ve presented is the opinions of commentators. Commentators which contradict what the Scriptures say. Do a study of “Ruach”, “Neshamah”, and “Nephesh.”

 

What is the word of God that divides soul and spirit?

 

Commentary is helpful Butch. Why are you so against it. The commentary also proves that soul and spirit are two separate entities with different functions..(and thoughts, dividing, that is, distinguishing what is spiritual from what is carnal and animal in him, the spirit from the soul:) Proving that a soul requires a body does nothing. What you need to do is prove that a soul requires a body immediately after death. The afterlife is a completely different story. When they say 'the word of God' they are referring to the Holy Scriptures, thus persecution among christians. Because the scriptures tells a sinner to repent if they wanna see God.

 

Not of this world doesn’t mean not in this world. A meteor is not of this world, however, when one picks one up it is in this world. His statement reads, ‘my kingdom is not out of this world’. It isn’t His authority comes from God not the world.

Ok, are you saying that we can now go to Jerusalem and see Jesus and the thief? Is Jesus in Jerusalem at this moment with the thief?What I’ve said is Biblical. Not of this world doesn’t mean not in this world. A meteor is not of this world, however, when one picks one  up it is in this world. His statement reads, ‘my kingdom is not out of this world’. It isn’t His authority comes from God not the world.

 

Not of this world means just that. His home is not of this fallen world. When Jesus was walking the earth the kingdom of God was spiritually inside of him. So when he died he went back home physically to his Father in heaven. His disciples couldn't go where he was going, not until they died. So what Jesus said was, they couldn't go where he was going which was heaven, but Jesus promised he would send the holy spirit to them to indwell them. His disciples had more work to do on this old earth, their time on earth wasn't up yet. Jesus left his disciples physically but not spiritually. (John 13:33 "My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.) (John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.)

 

The new Jerusalem will not be active until the new earth is created. The new heaven and the new earth will not be separate from each other. The first heaven and the new Jerusalem are not the same. The first heaven is where christians go when they die, the new Jerusalem is the NEW heaven that will reside on the NEW earth. In the new Jerusalem we will finally have our resurrected bodies. The thief's soul is now in the first heaven with the Lord, so yes christians will see the the thief and the rest of our holy family. We will also meet Paul! (Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.)

 

 

Rev 2:7 is also talking about heaven Butch. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from?

No, it’s not. Paradise is the Garden of Eden which was on earth ad which God will restore when He restores all things. The Scriptures don’t teach that. Again, you really should disregard those commentaries they full of erroneous teachings.

 

The word paradise is a metaphor to describe God's home that is heaven Butch. The Garden of Eden is past tense, you need to get that out of your mind. The Garden of Eden has nothing to do with the new Jerusalem or the new Earth. Rev 2:7 is talking about heaven. When a christian is baptized in the Holy Spirit, God's love is ALIVE inside of them. (Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.) You didn't answer my question, do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from?

 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/revelation/2-7.htm

2:1-7 These churches were in such different states as to purity of doctrine and the power of godliness, that the words of Christ to them will always suit the cases of other churches, and professors. Christ knows and observes their state; though in heaven, yet he walks in the midst of his churches on earth, observing what is wrong in them, and what they want. The church of Ephesus is commended for diligence in duty. Christ keeps an account of every hour's work his servants do for him, and their labour shall not be in vain in the Lord. But it is not enough that we are diligent; there must be bearing patience, and there must be waiting patience. And though we must show all meekness to all men, yet we must show just zeal against their sins. The sin Christ charged this church with, is, not the having left and forsaken the object of love, but having lost the fervent degree of it that at first appeared. Christ is displeased with his people, when he sees them grow remiss and cold toward him. Surely this mention in Scripture, of Christians forsaking their first love, reproves those who speak of it with carelessness, and thus try to excuse indifference and sloth in themselves and others; our Saviour considers this indifference as sinful. They must repent: they must be grieved and ashamed for their sinful declining, and humbly confess it in the sight of God. They must endeavour to recover their first zeal, tenderness, and seriousness, and must pray as earnestly, and watch as diligently, as when they first set out in the ways of God. If the presence of Christ's grace and Spirit is slighted, we may expect the presence of his displeasure. Encouraging mention is made of what was good among them. Indifference as to truth and error, good and evil, may be called charity and meekness, but it is not so; and it is displeasing to Christ. The Christian life is a warfare against sin, Satan, the world, and the flesh. We must never yield to our spiritual enemies, and then we shall have a glorious triumph and reward. All who persevere, shall derive from Christ, as the Tree of life, perfection and confirmation in holiness and happiness, not in the earthly paradise, but in the heavenly. This is a figurative expression, taken from the account of the garden of Eden, denoting the pure, satisfactory, and eternal joys of heaven; and the looking forward to them in this world, by faith, communion with Christ, and the consolations of the Holy Spirit. Believers, take your wrestling life here, and expect and look for a quiet life hereafter; but not till then: the word of God never promises quietness and complete freedom from conflict here.

[Butch5]

Butch5, on 25 Jan 2014 - 6:11 PM, said:
I asked if you know what the passage meant and you post what the JFB commentary thinks the passage means.I’m summing up a study of soul and spirit with one verse? If that was the case it’s still one more than you’ve given. However, no, I’ve studied the words and their use through the Scriptures. I’ve given you multiple passages of Scripture showing that a soul requires a body. All you’ve presented is the opinions of commentators. Commentators which contradict what the Scriptures say. Do a study of “Ruach”, “Neshamah”, and “Nephesh.”

What is the word of God that divides soul and spirit?

Commentary is helpful Butch. Why are you so against it. The commentary also proves that soul and spirit are two separate entities with different functions..(and thoughts, dividing, that is, distinguishing what is spiritual from what is carnal and animal in him, the spiritfrom the soul:) Proving that a soul requires a body does nothing. What you need to do is prove that a soul requires a body immediately after death. The afterlife is a completely different story. When they say 'the word of God' they are referring to the Holy Scriptures, thus persecution among christians. Because the scriptures tells a sinner to repent if they wanna see God.

Because commentary is just some guys opinion. It can be helpful when people compare the commentary with Scripture to see if it is correct, however, many don’t as we see here. Many just assume it’s correct. I’ve already shown from Scripture not commentaries that with a body or God’s breath/spirit a soul does not exist. You’re making your argument based on an unproven assumption.

You see Hebrews 4:12 is not referring to the Scriptures as you suggest and the commentary seems to suggest. Words cannot divide soul and spirit. The Word of God is Christ which can be seen by reading the next verse.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. (Heb 4:12-13 KJV)

The Scriptures are not a “He”, Jesus is a He. So, you see, this is why you shouldn’t listen to the commentaries, many are simply wrong. It is Christ who can separate soul and spirit. Soul is simply life. A soul is a living being that consists of a body and God’s spirit/breath. Jesus can separate God’s spirit/breath and a person’s life. It is He that will judge men at the judgment and determine whether they receive life or death.

Not of this world means just that. His home is not of this fallen world. When Jesus was walking the earth the kingdom of God was spiritually inside of him. So when he died he went back home physically to his Father in heaven. His disciples couldn't go where he was going, not until they died. So what Jesus said was, they couldn't go where he was going which was heaven, but Jesus promised he would send the holy spirit to them to indwell them. His disciples had more work to do on this old earth, their time on earth wasn't up yet. Jesus left his disciples physically but not spiritually. (John 13:33 "My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.) (John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.)

 

"ek" means out of.

 

You do realize that “spiritual” is an adjective, correct? It’s not a thing. It’s also not something immaterial. A spirit is immaterial, however, spiritual is an adjective. An adjective modifies a noun. It expresses some quality of that noun. To say something is spiritual means that it has some quality/qualities of the spirit.

 

KJV  Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. (Gal 6:1 KJV)

 

You wouldn’t argue that Paul is writing to immaterial beings when he wrote to the Galatians would you?

 

The new Jerusalem will not be active until the new earth is created. The new heaven and the new earth will not be separate from each other. The first heaven and the new Jerusalem are not the same. The first heaven is where christians go when they die, the new Jerusalem is the NEW heaven that will reside on the NEW earth. In the new Jerusalem we will finally have our resurrected bodies. The thief's soul is now in the first heaven with the Lord, so yes christians will see the the thief and the rest of our holy family. We will also meet Paul! (Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.)

I didn’t ask if they will meet (future tense). I asked if Jesus and the thief are in Jerusalem right now? The thief is not in Heaven now or at any time, he is in the ground.

 

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:19 KJV)

Rev 2:7 is also talking about heaven Butch. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from?

No, it’s not. Paradise is the Garden of Eden which was on earth ad which God will restore when He restores all things. The Scriptures don’t teach that. Again, you really should disregard those commentaries they full of erroneous teachings.

The word paradise is a metaphor to describe God's home that is heaven Butch. The Garden of Eden is past tense, you need to get that out of your mind. The Garden of Eden has nothing to do with the new Jerusalem or the new Earth. Rev 2:7 is talking about heaven. When a christian is baptized in the Holy Spirit, God's love is ALIVE inside of them. (Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.) You didn't answer my question, do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from?

 

Since you have no Scripture to support that claim it’s simply your opinion. According to Scripture it is a real place on earth when God restores all things.

 

KJV  Isaiah 51:1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.
9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. (Isa 51:1-11 KJV)

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/revelation/2-7.htm
2:1-7 These churches were in such different states as to purity of doctrine and the power of godliness, that the words of Christ to them will always suit the cases of other churches, and professors. Christ knows and observes their state; though in heaven, yet he walks in the midst of his churches on earth, observing what is wrong in them, and what they want. The church of Ephesus is commended for diligence in duty. Christ keeps an account of every hour's work his servants do for him, and their labour shall not be in vain in the Lord. But it is not enough that we are diligent; there must be bearing patience, and there must be waiting patience. And though we must show all meekness to all men, yet we must show just zeal against their sins. The sin Christ charged this church with, is, not the having left and forsaken the object of love, but having lost the fervent degree of it that at first appeared. Christ is displeased with his people, when he sees them grow remiss and cold toward him. Surely this mention in Scripture, of Christians forsaking their first love, reproves those who speak of it with carelessness, and thus try to excuse indifference and sloth in themselves and others; our Saviour considers this indifference as sinful. They must repent: they must be grieved and ashamed for their sinful declining, and humbly confess it in the sight of God. They must endeavour to recover their first zeal, tenderness, and seriousness, and must pray as earnestly, and watch as diligently, as when they first set out in the ways of God. If the presence of Christ's grace and Spirit is slighted, we may expect the presence of his displeasure. Encouraging mention is made of what was good among them. Indifference as to truth and error, good and evil, may be called charity and meekness, but it is not so; and it is displeasing to Christ. The Christian life is a warfare against sin, Satan, the world, and the flesh. We must never yield to our spiritual enemies, and then we shall have a glorious triumph and reward. All who persevere, shall derive from Christ, as the Tree of life, perfection and confirmation in holiness and happiness, not in the earthly paradise, but in the heavenly. This is a figurative expression, taken from the account of the garden of Eden, denoting the pure, satisfactory, and eternal joys of heaven; and the looking forward to them in this world, by faith, communion with Christ, and the consolations of the Holy Spirit. Believers, take your wrestling life here, and expect and look for a quiet life hereafter; but not till then: the word of God never promises quietness and complete freedom from conflict here.

 

Ok, so he doesn’t understand the Scriptures, what’s the point?  Don’t you see a problem here? I’m quoting Scripture and you’re quoting commentaries

[Guest DRS81]

I’ve already shown from Scripture not commentaries that with a body or God’s breath/spirit a soul does not exist.

 

and who are you Butch. Why are you the final word. Why are you above commentary. Who made you king of all truth. You're just some random guy on the internet twisting scripture.

 

 

Not of this world means just that. His home is not of this fallen world. When Jesus was walking the earth the kingdom of God was spiritually inside of him. So when he died he went back home physically to his Father in heaven. His disciples couldn't go where he was going, not until they died. So what Jesus said was, they couldn't go where he was going which was heaven, but Jesus promised he would send the holy spirit to them to indwell them. His disciples had more work to do on this old earth, their time on earth wasn't up yet. Jesus left his disciples physically but not spiritually. (John 13:33 "My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.) (John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.)

 

"ek" means out of.

 

You do realize that “spiritual” is an adjective, correct? It’s not a thing. It’s also not something immaterial. A spirit is immaterial, however, spiritual is an adjective. An adjective modifies a noun. It expresses some quality of that noun. To say something is spiritual means that it has some quality/qualities of the spirit.

 

KJV  Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. (Gal 6:1 KJV)

 

You wouldn’t argue that Paul is writing to immaterial beings when he wrote to the Galatians would you?

 

I don't understand what you're trying to get across here. God the Father is spirit and his spirit is alive. Do you understand what that means?

 

I didn’t ask if they will meet (future tense). I asked if Jesus and the thief are in Jerusalem right now? The thief is not in Heaven now or at any time, he is in the ground.

 

You are using the word Jerusalem out of context. Did you not read what I wrote about the first heaven and the new Jerusalem?

 

 

Do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from?

No, it’s not. Paradise is the Garden of Eden which was on earth ad which God will restore when He restores all things. The Scriptures don’t teach that. Again, you really should disregard those commentaries they full of erroneous teachings.

 

I've asked you three times now, do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from? Why are you avoiding this question?

 

Ok, so he doesn’t understand the Scriptures, what’s the point?  Don’t you see a problem here? I’m quoting Scripture and you’re quoting commentaries

 

No Butch, you're quoting scriptures out of context, and the commentaries are correcting you.

[Butch5]

and who are you Butch. Why are you the final word. Why are you above commentary. Who made you king of all truth. You're just some random guy on the internet twisting scripture.

 

I’m nobody. However, I’m not twisting the Scriptures. I’ve made a case based in Scripture. Neither of you guys has and neither have any of the commentaries that you’ve posted. I’ve asked several times now for you guys to make a case from the Scriptures, an inductive argument not just a few passages from which you’ve inferred your doctrine. As of this post there have been none. Therefore it would seem that it is not I that is twisting the Scriptures.
 

I don't understand what you're trying to get across here. God the Father is spirit and his spirit is alive. Do you understand what that means?

 

Yes, I understand that, but it doesn’t address what I said. The word Spiritual does not mean a spirit. It means having qualities of the spirit.  Spiritual does not mean non physical. The Galatians to which Paul wrote were physical people who he calls spiritual. They had spiritual qualities. Paul is not saying they were spirits.

You are using the word Jerusalem out of context. Did you not read what I wrote about the first heaven and the new Jerusalem?

 

I did, you gave your opinion. There was no Scripture showing what you said is actually the case. Jerusalem is a city on earth and the New Jerusalem will be a city on the earth. It’s the same city, it will be renewed when God restores all things. The New Heaven and New Earth are not different from the ones that exist now, they are the existing ones restored. The same is the case with Jerusalem.

I've asked you three times now, do you know what the Holy Spirit is and where it comes from? Why are you avoiding this question?

 

I’m not avoiding the question. I don’t see what bearing it has on the issues. Yes, I know what who the Holy Spirit is and where He comes from.
 

No Butch, you're quoting scriptures out of context, and the commentaries are correcting you.

 

You keep accusing me of taking things out of context yet have made no attempt to show how I’ve done so. Simply claiming it doesn’t make it so. It’s easy to see that the commentaries you’re posting are wrong. All one needs to do is compare them to the Scriptures.

You’ve still not made a case for the existence of man after death and before the resurrection.

[Openly Curious]

 

 

 

According to the scripture there is a "distinction" between the body, the soul and the spirit.  Man is a three part being made up of a body, a soul and a spirit. 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray your "whole" spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord. 

 

So there is a distinction between the body and spirit in the scriptures as this verse shows.  

Actually, the Scriptures teach that man is a two part being. The body and spirit (breath of life) together became a living soul.  1+1=2.

 

 

Where are the Scriptures that teach that man is a two part being I would be interested in seeing them?  The scripture I posted above shows very clearly that man has a spirit, a soul and a body even though you might not want to accept the scripture.

 

Gen 2:7 describes the creation of man.  Ecc 3:18-22 describes the death of man. Ezekiel chapter 37 describes the resurrection of man.

 

KJV  Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Eze 37:1-14 KJV)

 

In this picture of the resurrection we see God bringing the bodies back together. Then He says, " and shall put my spirit in you and you shall live". Notice God didn't put "their" spirits back in them He put "HIs" spirit in them and they live. This is the same thing we see in Genesis 2:7 God formed the body and put "His" breath/spirit into Adam. It is "His" breath/spirit we see returning to God when man dies (Ecc 3).

 

 

The scripture in Ezekiel isn't speaking of the resurrection of the righteous dead.  The prophet Ezekiel had a vision from the Lord in how that God was going to restore the nation of Israel.  The prophet Ezekiel at the time of this vision was in Babylonian captivity.  After the Babylonian captivity was over the two tribes of Benjamin and Judah was restored.  This prophecy of Israel coming back together as a nation was fullfilled in it's entirity in 1948.  When the nation of Israel was restored and came back together as a nation.  So the nation of Israel once being destroyed did live again and became a nation again.

 

But what say ye of the scripture I gave you in.....

 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly;  and I pray God your  1.) whole spirit  2.) and soul,  3.) and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

There is nothing that you have said that disannuls this scripture.  As it clearly shows Spirit, Soul and Body.