YEC and OEC Summary

[ARGOSY]

Now lets take a closer look at the first verse in genisis:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Lets focus on the word "created" for a moment.  In hebrew its the word 'bara  and it is a verb.  many teach/preach that this hebrew verb 'bara means God made it out of nothing.  Just poof and it was there.  Now personally I have had "encounters" with The Almighty and I know from being in His presence He can Poof something into exsistance.  So I am not saying he cant do that.  but thats another story.  back to the word 'bara.  In this instance it is translated to the english word create.  However if we look to Joshua 17:18 we see this same exact word in hebrew ('bara) translated as the word "cut"  as in cutting down trees to clear out the land.  If we do a deeper study on the word 'bara we find that originally it had a meaning of carving or sculpting or cutting out.  The word can be used both to create by bringing into exsistance AND it can be used in a sense of fashioning something that is already in exsistance.  And when we consider this with the fact that there is no scripural evidence to back up God made the water its possible and based on genisis 1:2 probable God fashioned the earth out of something already there.  Again I am not promoting the gap theory and thats mainly due to alot of things assumed and read into The Book.  ..................................

 

I only present this as food for thought.  I am not preaching this as matter in factly or as gospel truth.  The truth is no one alive today was alive thousands of years ago to actually witness God making/creating/fashioning/forming/whatever word you want to use so no one realy knows for sure.  Unless God gave them a vision or a dream about it. 

 

just another side note if you do a deep word study on genisis/the bible/hebrew you will find six hebrew words used for "create"

bara- create(1:1), asah- make(1:7), nathan- set(1:17), yatsar- form(2:7), banah- make or build(2:22), and qanah- create, posses, get, or aquire(4:1 and 14:19).

Thanks for the accurate and informative post.

my pleasure bro.  I love to dig in Gods Word for jewels because it is the only book written that for sure contains no lie.  Well, unless its giving an account of a lie being told like in acts with the husband and wife who kept back part of the money and lied to The Holy Spirit.  It is all true every bit of it.  Thank God for a written record of His Words!!!

amen! Where the bible is clear then we take it literally. Where the bible leaves a question as unanswered we should not place restrictions on the Word. The bible is Holy.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Good questions...and yes I completely see your confusion.

 

One of the helpful things about this site is it helps one clarify one's one thoughts, or rather one's one arguments.

 

I sided with the OEC at first (and still do, but not as passionately as they) but then realized that I didn't like much of their exegesis (i.e. day age and especially gap).  I side with the OEC because I find it hard to believe that the majority of scientific claims are a) absolute hog-wash or b) conspired to undermine Scripture. But that stance is based on science--granted, THEIR science.  One of the things you have helped me understand is the difference between scientific evidence and claims, and claims made by scientists.   IF it helps, I am an oec (lower case significant); if the consensus of the scientists shifts to a younger earth, I will be a yec (lower case significant).  I am not a scientist: nor can I fly a plane.  Is it possible that the next flight I take is piloted by a mad-man?  Perhaps, common sense tells me to take my seat all the same.  I feel the same way with the sciences.

 

I attack the YEC interpretation because I think it is also bad exegesis; in doing so I imagine I will sound like a Day/Ager, for the arguments against YEC are pretty much the same, though my conclusion is not.  In other words, it seems nonsensical to me that plants should spring up within 24 hours without sunlight; and this certainly does sound like a DAY/AGE argument; as if I were to conclude that that DAY was REALLY more than a day allowing plants more time to grow.  But I don't make that maneuver.  There are other options than a) the Bible teaches YEC b)the Bible teaches OEC.  There is mine: c) the Bible doesn't teach either.

 

i defend the sciences because I know at least a few who are honest Christians.  They are OEC's because their own field has led them to believe that; my own field has led me to let them do their job.  I also see some inconsistency among YEC's in their attitude towards science--one moment I am to be suspicious of their every move; the next, I am given link after link showing scientific evidence that the earth is young.

 

I do, however, believe that science can fine-tune our reading of Scripture: I do not think that God's creation is fundamentally at odds with Scripture.  However, whatever effect the OE claims had on my initial reading of Genesis (a long time ago I was probably a Day/Ager; but I don't remember) once I started studying seriously the language of the text and the culture of the time, I came to the conclusion that Genesis does not teach other.

 

 

"Again, there is the question of genre. The flood narrative in Genesis bears too many similarities to other flood myths. The theological differences are deafening. Ancient flood myths have been taken over by God and reshaped for theological purposes."

 

 

Are you saying GOD has taken over all the Ancient Flood Myths?  If so,.................WHAT????

 

Now, a historical question:  if by all the flood myths you mean that a collection of clay tablets containing all the flood narratives from the Native Americans to the Indonesians were put in front of Moses, and God began to combine and edit them for him; then of course not.  We are dealing with an ancient culture which depended on oral tradition: traditions the ancient Hebrews would have known.  The important Sumerian flood narrative is the Gilgamesh Epic.  The coincidences are too striking to assume that the author of Genesis did not know about it or something like it before it reached its now permanent form (and obviously the AUTHOR of Genesis knew about it).  But the differences are just as striking: especially the contrast in characters between YHWH and the gods, and Noah and Gilgamesh.  This does not mean that NOah's flood is dependent on other narratives (but what would it matter theologically if it were?).  We could easily have something like a shared mythology which bloomed in different ways for different cultures.  But I suspect that when God wrote the tale of Noah (through whomever, Moses?) he was challenging certain assumptions which were certainly held by the majority of the ANE and probably still lurked in the minds of his people, the Hebrews.  They had been living in pagan lands for hundreds of years.  The speed and alacrity with which they worshiped calf indicates that they were pretty much pagans and didn't quite understand the grand operation that GOD was carrying out with them--monotheism.  Genesis (both creation and flood) challenges those assumptions exquisitely.

 

clb

 

 

===========================================================================================

 

 

ahhh, OK; I see.  a couple things....

 

 

i defend the sciences because I know at least a few who are honest Christians.

 

I'm an Honest Christian and have a Heavy "Science" background. 

 

 

 

They are OEC's because their own field has led them to believe that

 

I think we've put the Death Knell in all "claims that scientists make" concerning the "Age" thingy on this board to the Guillotine..... quite demonstrably.

 

 

 

I also see some inconsistency among YEC's in their attitude towards science--one moment I am to be suspicious of their every move; the next, I am given link after link showing scientific evidence that the earth is young.

 

A couple things.  I Love science....Real "Science" and I evaluate each "claim" individually on it's own merit.  And when you say "YEC" it implies a stereotype...are you trying to put me in some kind of a Box?  And who cares what anybody says whatever their Lot in Life.....I do not Shut my eyes to it, I take these very seriously....

 

(Proverbs 18:13) "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

 

Not all "Science" is built the same....be careful not to equivocate.

 

 

[qoute]Now concerning the Flood,  Have you ever considered this scenario..............

 

All Flood Stories are derivative of GOD'S FLOOD (Noah).  The reason they're similar in some aspects but somewhat different in others is that ALL The people who knew the same story were SCATTERED @ the Tower of Babel.  Down through the Centuries the stories were told from Generation to Generation.  They will obviously get sidetracked per each individual "Culture".

 

How about that?

 

Now concerning the Flood,  Have you ever considered this scenario..............

 

All Flood Stories are derivative of GOD'S FLOOD (Noah).  The reason they're similar in some aspects but somewhat different in others is that ALL The people who knew the same story were SCATTERED @ the Tower of Babel.  Down through the Centuries the stories were told from Generation to Generation.  They will obviously get sidetracked per each individual "Culture".

 

How about that?

 

 

 

Prove it.

 

[LookingForAnswers]

Did you find the bible codes on your own or did someone do that for you?

[Enoch2021]

Yes, I surely did.

 

I was reading through a Bible Commentary and it said "BIBLE CODES".  And I said to myself "What In The World!!" 

 

So instead summarily dismissing it or taking less than 5 seconds.... typing it into GOOGLE, looking @ the first 3 hits, and adopting into My World View without DUE DILIGENCE and aligning it with an "a priori" adherence to a Doctrine that was also derived from a previous 5 second GOOGLE search (that conveniently lined up with said World View) ;  I embarked on another Journey and came @ it 6 ways from Sunday to assess VERACITY and VALIDITY.

 

 

As I do with all subjects/concepts; why? ....

 

 

(Proverbs 18:13) "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."

 

 

 

As for the feeble comment "Conceptually":  Did you Discover Steak?  Do you Eat Steak?

[LookingForAnswers]

How many of these "secrets" you think God hid in the Bible did you discover on your own?

The single verse you use to justify your view these secrets exist, did you discover that on your own or did someone tell you it allpied to this topic?

[bestrfcplayer]

Science doesn't need to be made religious. I myself am a Christian and take evolution for what it is: fact. Likewise with the Big Bang. While yes with the Big Bang we weren't around to see it, that is the most accurate theory that scientists have put forth. And who knows? God could have created the universe with a Big Bang. It is quite possible that He did.

[Enoch2021]

Science doesn't need to be made religious. I myself am a Christian and take evolution for what it is: fact. Likewise with the Big Bang. While yes with the Big Bang we weren't around to see it, that is the most accurate theory that scientists have put forth. And who knows? God could have created the universe with a Big Bang. It is quite possible that He did.

 

 

I myself am a Christian and take evolution for what it is: fact. Likewise with the Big Bang.

 

Go ahead and start a new topic with "Evolution and Big Bang, Fact"....see what kind of response you get.

[jerryR34]

 

 

Also and I forgot about this.  You still haven't answered a question that I posted to you a number of times....

 

Do you believe that we are here as a result of:  Random Chance "nature" or Intelligent Design "GOD".

 

Note:  Please don't say it's a False Dichotomy...we've been down that bumpy road.

 

The theory of evolution is the best explanation of human existence.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

Also and I forgot about this.  You still haven't answered a question that I posted to you a number of times....

 

Do you believe that we are here as a result of:  Random Chance "nature" or Intelligent Design "GOD".

 

Note:  Please don't say it's a False Dichotomy...we've been down that bumpy road.

 

The theory of evolution is the best explanation of human existence.

 

 

Jerry,

 

You still haven't answered the questions and.....

 

How many times do we have to eviscerate the evolution fairytale for you?  It's like a never ending Abbot and Costello skit.

[jerryR34]

 

How many times do we have to eviscerate the evolution fairytale for you?

Once would suffice.