OneLight Posted March 30, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 30, 2014 Shameless bump ... I would like an answer. Fruitfull77, allow me to ask a question. Do you celebrate News Year, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Veterans Day, Thanksgiving, your birthday or the birthdays of anyone else? If not, do you believe that these traditional holidays reflect Satan's control over the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His_disciple3 Posted March 30, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 358 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 30, 2014 having a tree with silver and gold and worshipping a tree with silver and gold is a big difference I hope some learn that difference, for by the same condemnation you judge so will you be judged by! as well as there is a bigger difference as to being under the law and being under Grace, I to hope that some can learn the difference before it is eternally too late. Gal 5:1-4 5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Would you say Jeremiah 10: 1-4 is describing anything close to our christmas tree of today-this was written back in the late 500's BC No. It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments. That is what pagans did with their idols. There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east. You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods. You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false. People read something in someone's book and they just believe it. Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period. Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4 a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned . It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew. Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god. Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east. You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east. It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree. You are violating historical propriety. You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible. Your history is slopply and incompetent. No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world. The evergreen tree and boughs were the most common In the OT they were tempted to follow that particular tradition but God forbids it. Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read. These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true. You are so gullible and you are wrong. Where do you think the people of Europe derived their traditions from regarding this subject matter? And would they not be man-made? They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world. The OT and the NT condemns laying aside God's ways He wants to be worshiped in favor of keeping our own idea of how we want to honor Him. God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world. God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I don't agree with fruitful in the position he is taking in this discussion. I don't believe that the scripture he is referencing is talking about a Christmas tree, and I don't believe Christians have to keep all the feast days. That being said, Romans makes it clear that Fruitful or anyone else is accepted of God keeping those feast days and believing we must keep them. Every time someone takes the position that they believe something is wrong, it seems that just believing that angers people that don't agree and they start the attacks based on law and grace. If one believes that the church must keep certain festivals and observe certain days, they do so as unto the Lord. If someone else believes this is not necessary, they don't observe them as unto the Lord. Obviously, I am replying to His Disciple 3, not Shiloh357. I have seen that scripture brought up before concerning Christmas trees. I can honestly see how someone can make the connection, but lets make one thing clear. I have never personally met anyone that worshipped a Christmas tree. They remind us of the season and are nice to look at, and that is it. I don't believe a Christmas tree would be an idol for the vast majority of people. The only reason I don't say everyone is there is always some nut that will worship anything. There was a church where the people worshipped a dead rock and roll singer, so I am not going to rule out anything, but I don't know anyone personally that sees a Christmas tree as a deity deserving worship. I also find it unlikely that the idol described in the OT was anything like a Christmas tree, even though it may sound like a Christmas tree when you just casually read the passage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitfull77 Posted March 30, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 132 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 25 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 30, 2014 Would you say Jeremiah 10: 1-4 is describing anything close to our christmas tree of today-this was written back in the late 500's BC No. It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments. That is what pagans did with their idols. There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east. You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods. You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false. People read something in someone's book and they just believe it. Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period. Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4 a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned . It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew. Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god. Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east. You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east. It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree. You are violating historical propriety. You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible. Your history is slopply and incompetent. No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world. The evergreen tree and boughs were the most common In the OT they were tempted to follow that particular tradition but God forbids it. Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read. These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true. You are so gullible and you are wrong. Where do you think the people of Europe derived their traditions from regarding this subject matter? And would they not be man-made? They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world. The OT and the NT condemns laying aside God's ways He wants to be worshiped in favor of keeping our own idea of how we want to honor Him. God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world. God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice? The Hebrew word ets is used which means tree. Dec 25th goes back to the days of Nimrod and Tammuz-Dec25 is associated with most sun gods. Dec 25 was regarded as the birthday of the mystery God Mithra, the son of righteousness The modern xmas tree originated in Germany but they got it from the Romans who got it from the Babylonians and Egypt-would that be close enough to the Near east, throw in India as well. Babylonian and Egyptian tree worship is a pagan tradition. I didn't see your answer where you think the modern xmas tree came from? could you supply that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitfull77 Posted March 30, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 132 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 25 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 30, 2014 I don't agree with fruitful in the position he is taking in this discussion. I don't believe that the scripture he is referencing is talking about a Christmas tree, and I don't believe Christians have to keep all the feast days. That being said, Romans makes it clear that Fruitful or anyone else is accepted of God keeping those feast days and believing we must keep them. Every time someone takes the position that they believe something is wrong, it seems that just believing that angers people that don't agree and they start the attacks based on law and grace. If one believes that the church must keep certain festivals and observe certain days, they do so as unto the Lord. If someone else believes this is not necessary, they don't observe them as unto the Lord. Obviously, I am replying to His Disciple 3, not Shiloh357. I have seen that scripture brought up before concerning Christmas trees. I can honestly see how someone can make the connection, but lets make one thing clear. I have never personally met anyone that worshipped a Christmas tree. They remind us of the season and are nice to look at, and that is it. I don't believe a Christmas tree would be an idol for the vast majority of people. The only reason I don't say everyone is there is always some nut that will worship anything. There was a church where the people worshipped a dead rock and roll singer, so I am not going to rule out anything, but I don't know anyone personally that sees a Christmas tree as a deity deserving worship. I also find it unlikely that the idol described in the OT was anything like a Christmas tree, even though it may sound like a Christmas tree when you just casually read the passage. I have a big plant and small tree in my living-there is nothing wrong with one. But when you bring an evergreen tree in and decorate it on Dec 25 or thereabouts you are following a pagan tradition, even tho there is no worshiping on your part. that is the gist of it. you get to decide whether that applies to us today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I don't agree with fruitful in the position he is taking in this discussion. I don't believe that the scripture he is referencing is talking about a Christmas tree, and I don't believe Christians have to keep all the feast days. That being said, Romans makes it clear that Fruitful or anyone else is accepted of God keeping those feast days and believing we must keep them. Every time someone takes the position that they believe something is wrong, it seems that just believing that angers people that don't agree and they start the attacks based on law and grace. If one believes that the church must keep certain festivals and observe certain days, they do so as unto the Lord. If someone else believes this is not necessary, they don't observe them as unto the Lord. Obviously, I am replying to His Disciple 3, not Shiloh357. I have seen that scripture brought up before concerning Christmas trees. I can honestly see how someone can make the connection, but lets make one thing clear. I have never personally met anyone that worshipped a Christmas tree. They remind us of the season and are nice to look at, and that is it. I don't believe a Christmas tree would be an idol for the vast majority of people. The only reason I don't say everyone is there is always some nut that will worship anything. There was a church where the people worshipped a dead rock and roll singer, so I am not going to rule out anything, but I don't know anyone personally that sees a Christmas tree as a deity deserving worship. I also find it unlikely that the idol described in the OT was anything like a Christmas tree, even though it may sound like a Christmas tree when you just casually read the passage. I have a big plant and small tree in my living-there is nothing wrong with one. But when you bring an evergreen tree in and decorate it on Dec 25 or thereabouts you are following a pagan tradition, even tho there is no worshiping on your part. that is the gist of it. you get to decide whether that applies to us today. How about when I set up a plastic tree and decorate it in November? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 30, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 30, 2014 Fruitfull77, why are you ignoring my simple questions? You continue to argue against holidays, yet you refuse to tell us your stance on them. That is what a discussion is about, back and forth communication. Fruitfull77, allow me to ask a question. Do you celebrate News Year, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Veterans Day, Thanksgiving, your birthday or the birthdays of anyone else? If not, do you believe that these traditional holidays reflect Satan's control over the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted March 30, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I believe in the eyes of God,there is only one church,that is church of Jesus Christ,i may be right or wrong,iam open to correction,A preacher said that because of church doctrine and tradition of men,many christian will go to hell fire,do you guys agree with him,some christian doesn't celebrate christmas,they said Jesus was not born on 25th, and beside it is not biblical,and Christ did not ask us to celebrate His birth,I want to ask is it a must that every christian must celebrate christmas,is celebrating christmas biblical or tradition of men.some church said that it is not good for a christian to drink alcohol,why some encourage it,because the first miracle Jesus perform on earth,was turning water to wine.what do you think. Hi Jerry, I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not a Christian holiday. The Church swallowed up the pagan holiday of the Saturnalia. There were pagan celebrations that centered around Dec. 25 and the winter solstice the shortest day of the year. They saw this as a renewing as the days began to get longer. As more and more pagans turned to Christianity the church incorporated their holiday. Also, Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25. I believe He was born on Sept 12 3BC. The reason I don't celebrate Christmas is twofold, one, it's not from Scripture, and two In Deuteronomy God specifically told the Jews that they were not to worship Him the way the pagans worshiped their gods. If you look at Christmas and the celebrations they are they way the pagans worshiped their gods. The pagans used trees, wreaths, lights, etc and all of these are found in Christmas celebrations. Actually there is no archeological evidence of ancients employing modern Christmas traditions. A lot of that is made up history revisionism. Most modern Christmas traditions sprung up after the Reformation in Europe, not in ancient times. It's really no different than those who claim that the story of Jesus' life is actually a retelling of the story of the birth, life and death/resurrection of Horus or some other pagan god. I have found a lot of really revisionist history and outright lies in people's attempts to tag Christianity as a pagan religion. Some of the early Christian writers tell us how the early pagans worshiped and some of those practices are used by Christians today. Celebrating New Years, giving of gifts at the mid winter festivals, etc. Which early Christian writers? Tertullian comes to mind but I could look for others. I read quite a bit of Tertullian. Can you direct me to the writings you refer to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Would you say Jeremiah 10: 1-4 is describing anything close to our christmas tree of today-this was written back in the late 500's BC No. It is describing the process of carving an Idol from wood, plating it in silver and/or gold and adorning it with jewelry and regal garments. That is what pagans did with their idols. There are NO indications of Christmas trees in the middle east. You need to learn about the pagan cultures and how they worshipped their gods. You will find that all these claims about our Christmas traditions going back to the babylonians to be false. People read something in someone's book and they just believe it. Most of our Christmas traditions came out of Europe during the Reformation period. Jer 10:1-4 -is a warning from God not to follow the practices of heathens.-the example referred to is in verse 3,4 a tree is cut here and decorated or deck and secured-no carving mentioned . It doesn't have to. The word for "tree" and "wood" are the same word in Hebrew. Idols were made from wood and carved into the shape of a given god. Trees were not worshipped in the ancient near east. You evidently don't understand the culture of idolatry of the ancient near east. It is not talking about the custom of decorating a tree. You are violating historical propriety. You are taking a modern custom and penciling it into the Bible. Your history is slopply and incompetent. No one who knows anything about history will teach that people in the ancient near east teaches that they worship trees in that part of the world. The evergreen tree and boughs were the most common In the OT they were tempted to follow that particular tradition but God forbids it. Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. You are just parroting what you read in someone's book and you obviously didn't fact check what you read. These false teachers bank on people like you who will believe them with checking to see if their claims are true. You are so gullible and you are wrong. Where do you think the people of Europe derived their traditions from regarding this subject matter? And would they not be man-made? They didin't get it from the ancient near east because modern Christmas traditions didn't come from that part of the world. The OT and the NT condemns laying aside God's ways He wants to be worshiped in favor of keeping our own idea of how we want to honor Him. God's festivals in the OT were for Israel, not for the world. God's dietary commandments were for Israel, not the world. Why the warning from God then if this is not a pagan practice? it doesn't say anything about the Christmas tree. It is talking about people who cut down trees and make idols out of them. They shape the idol into their god and then overlay it with gold and silver. You are trying to read "Christmas tree" into that passage. The pagans in that part of the world didn't worship trees. They worshipped idols they carved from those trees. The Hebrew word ets is used which means tree. It is also the word for wood. Dec 25th goes back to the days of Nimrod and Tammuz-Dec25 is associated with most sun gods. Dec 25 was regarded as the birthday of the mystery God Mithra, the son of righteousness According to a lot of junk historians and conspiracy theorists. They also say that the death burial and resurrection of Jesus are just rehashing the stories of Mithra and Horus and other gods as well. They are wrong about that, too. The modern xmas tree originated in Germany but they got it from the Romans who got it from the Babylonians and Egypt-would that be close enough to the Near east, throw in India as well. Baloney. No basis in reality. Babylonian and Egyptian tree worship is a pagan tradition. More baseless garbage that as no root in real history or real mythology. You'll just believe anything, won't you. I've got some ocean property in Kansas I'll sell you dirt cheap. I didn't see your answer where you think the modern xmas tree came from? could you supply that? It came from post reformation Europe, many historians agree that it started in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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