A different end times scenario to discuss

[Enoch2021]

 

I just want to throw this out for us to civilly discuss. I'm not saying this is what I believe yet, but it is something I'm leaning toward, considering, weighing, and researching. Your thoughts will be welcomed of course.

So here goes. I will start with a timeline and then add to it as the thread progresses:

1. First Fruits Rapture (think first fruits harvest) of the FAITHFUL CHURCH ONLY -because these believers are watchful, alert, and living for God, not for self or the world, they will be kept from the hour of testing. These are the people who take Luke 21:36 seriously: "Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man."  (I believe ALL these things means all - the entire 70th week, which includes the frightful Seals too.)

 

-these people are special and only are taken to the wedding supper.(think church of Philadelphia promise Rev 3:10)

Hi Spock, interesting thread, but for now I will just deal with with your verse Luke 21:36. I feel that the pre-trib rendering of the verse does not make sense in context, because Jesus is talking to the same group of faithful Christians all the way through Luke 21:

v12 they will lay their hands on YOU

v16 YOU will be betrayed

v18 by YOUR endurance you will gain your lives

v21 when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded

v28 lift up YOUR heads

v31 when YOU see these things happening recognize that the kingdom of God is near

v34 Be on guard, so that YOUR hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness

v36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that YOU may have strength to escape ALL THESE THINGS that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

In context, Jesus is speaking to faithful Christians throughout the entire chapter. Those first seven events DEFINITELY are NOT meant for the less faithful Christians in context. Why then would Jesus have a second rule for "special" Christians that don't even have to go through what other faithful Christians have to endure?

Do you really believe there are two categories here?:

1) Faithful enduring persecuted betrayed Christians

2) An even better more faithful group of Christians who will not endure anything, but will escape all these things

Furthermore Jesus continues to use the word "you" all the way through, as if he is referring to just one group, not two groups.

Taking all the above into account, I view the verse in context meaning:

34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with DISSIPATION and DRUNKENNESS and the WORRIES OF LIFE, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things (TEMPTATIONS) that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

 

 

 

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ahhh, found it.  Was this the post you were referring to?

 

Well....

 

 

Argosy please pay attention to detail Brother.  Luke 21 and Matthew 24 (The Olivet Discourse ) are not the same.  You missed a CRUCIAL PART in Luke 21.  Allow me to show you with a compare and contrast:  I'll BOLD the difference it's a Biggy!!

 

Matthew 24:

 

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

Matthew's account is a Private Briefing on the Mount of Olives and is talking about events AFTER the previous signs listed....End Times.

 

Luke 21:

 

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

 

Luke's Account is to a gathering in the Temple.  He's talking about BEFORE ALL The Signs Listed....... Destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.  When you see Jerusalem Surrounded.....That was Titus Vespasian in 70AD with the 5th, 10th, 12th, and 15th Roman Legions.  By the way....all the Christians paid heed to this Prophecy and got out.  Millions of Jews died.

 

See it?

 

 

This also speaks to a very important concept that I've been stressing to you.  Let me ask you, why was Jerusalem destroyed in 70AD?

 

 

(Luke 19:41-44) "And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,  {42} Saying,  If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.  {43}  For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,  {44}  And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

 

Jesus held them accountable to know Daniel 9:25, Gabriel's Prophecy of Christ's Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem; and this......

 

(Zechariah 9:9) "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

 

Gives a whole "NEW MEANING" to Bible Study.  Please Brother, pay attention to detail.

 

 

ps. Moreover, none of the passages you outlined have any IMPACT WHATSOEVER on Rapture Doctrine anyway.

[Spock]

Hey Enoch2120,

I wasn't sure exactly what you were looking for in your hypothetical, but I will try my best here. Let me know if this wasn't what you were looking for.

Disclaimer: I believe the church is promised to not experience God's wrath, so keep that in mind.

Ok, some dude comes knocking on your door immediately after the abomination inquiring about you taking this mark in order to buy and sell. What should you do?

Well, if you are a believer, you tell him, "no thanks" and you continue to pray for God to give you strength as you await for the main harvest rapture pursuant to Matt 24:29-31.

If the dude says you must take the mark or go to jail, you go to jail.

If the dude says you take the mark or your wife goes to jail, you kiss your wife goodbye and tell her you will see her in Heaven.

If the dude says you either take the mark or your kids will go to jail, you give them your kids and you immediately go to see your lawyer to change your will.

Does that about cover it?

Spock ducking

[Enoch2021]

Hey Enoch2120,

I wasn't sure exactly what you were looking for in your hypothetical, but I will try my best here. Let me know if this wasn't what you were looking for.

Disclaimer: I believe the church is promised to not experience God's wrath, so keep that in mind.

Ok, some dude comes knocking on your door immediately after the abomination inquiring about you taking this mark in order to buy and sell. What should you do?

Well, if you are a believer, you tell him, "no thanks" and you continue to pray for God to give you strength as you await for the main harvest rapture pursuant to Matt 24:29-31.

If the dude says you must take the mark or go to jail, you go to jail.

If the dude says you take the mark or your wife goes to jail, you kiss your wife goodbye and tell her you will see her in Heaven.

If the dude says you either take the mark or your kids will go to jail, you give them your kids and you immediately go to see your lawyer to change your will.

Does that about cover it?

Spock ducking

 

 

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 You crack me up Spock.

 

 

My main point was to Illuminate the need to Study and know Prophecy/Scripture.  HE wrote it down for you to discern.  It's not given to you on a Silver Platter....you have to personally study the WORD and not listen to what people tell you WHAT THE WORD SAYS.  Because "you know who" is out there and he will do everything in his power to trip you up.

 

A few of us have provided a Metric Ton of Scriptural Support to assist on this Journey.......GO GET IT 

 

There are a lot of "So-Called" Bible Scholars, Preachers/Pastors, Guru's, TV Evangelists, more than willing to give you their take.  Even people on these Forums..... which also includes yours truly.

 

Don't believe a word of it !!!!!!!!   Be a Berean and TEST those things YOURSELF via SCRIPTURE Daily to see if they are TRUE.

 

 

2 Timothy 4:1-4:

 

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

 

TEST THEM SPOCK.....Against the Two-Edged Sword!!!

 

 

2 Timothy 2:15:

 

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

 

Praise The LORD!!!!!

[Sheniy]

This one scripture below when brought to my attention really opened my eyes to a partial rapture possibility. It then snowballed after that, and then I noticed 20 others. From Luke 12

35“Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. 39But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

41Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

42The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

Spock's musings: it seems clear to me that the value in being ready, watching, and obeying is you get to be invited to the wedding supper. Notice the words Jesus uses in verse 37. Love it.

And for those who don't heed the admonition to be ready, they get to be thrown into tribulation- see verse 46. He will be hanging out with the UNBELIEVERS during this time.

Again, look at the admonition Jesus gives to the 7 churches in rev 2-3 (emphasis on the word CHURCH)

1. Philadelphia-I will keep you from the hour that is about to come upon the whole earth

Vs.

2. Laodicea-So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Hey Spock, this is really interesting.  This is sort of in line with something I feel the Holy Spirit convicting me of recently.  Kinda feel like He's grabbing me on the shoulder and saying "Hey, wake up!  You need to get ready!"   'Cause I will admit that I've been slacking.  Thanks for the reinforcement.

 

I have traditionally been post-trib, but I've recently been reexamining my traditional beliefs , and I've been looking more at the other side of the tribulation/rapture fence, just to get some perspective.  My conclusion so far: I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen.   I think the most important thing is, like you said, to be ready.

 

I'm not sure about your "two raptures" idea, but the idea of some of the Church being taken as "firstfruits" is worth looking into.  This is a harvest, after all. 

 

 

 

There is no doubt that you're gonna have a Metric Ton of people who thought they were saved but were not.

 

So...twelve people?

 

(lol just messing with you, Enoch)

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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So...twelve people?

(lol just messing with you, Enoch)

 

Sheniy.....haven't heard from you in a coons age!  How you been?

 

Have you reckoned with the "Faith" issue yet?

 

 

I have traditionally been post-trib, but I've recently been reexamining my traditional beliefs , and I've been looking more at the other side of the tribulation/rapture fence, just to get some perspective

 

The "Post-Trib" view is "contrived" without a shred of Scriptural Support Whatsoever. 

 

 

Without posting the mountains of Scripture in support of Pre-Trib (That is Pre-70th Week of Daniel) just answer the 2 questions below:

 

 

If "The Church" who's Mission is to proclaim the Gospel to the World is still on the Earth during The Great Tribulation, then why the need for the Angel to proclaim it "to those who live on the Earth" in Rev 14?

 

Then after that:

 

How does the "Bride"----------> "The Church" (Born Again Christians), FOLLOW Christ in HIS SECOND COMING (See Rev 19) after the Marriage Supper if they're still on the Earth waiting to be "Raptured" ??

 

 

If you can't answer those in a Post Trib Context......(and you can't), You have just file 13nd your...... "I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen", Statement.

 

 

Don't mistake Simplicity with the Lack of VERACITY.   Most things in this life are Simple.....it's "people" and their "a priori"  UNSUPPORTED World Views that complicate matters.

 

 

They are Helpless Against.......The Two-Edged Sword!!!!

 

 

Praise The LORD!!!!

[Sheniy]

Sheniy.....haven't heard from you in a coons age!  How you been?

 

Have you reckoned with the "Faith" issue yet?

What faith issue?  Are you referring to our Hebrews 11:1 discussion (still waiting for answers! ), or is this something else?

I've been around. Lurking as a Guest on my phone, mostly (it doesn't seem to want to stay logged in).  The F vs S forum seems to have quieted down...or derailed.  I'll jump in again when I see an interesting topic.

 

I have traditionally been post-trib, but I've recently been reexamining my traditional beliefs , and I've been looking more at the other side of the tribulation/rapture fence, just to get some perspective

 

 

The "Post-Trib" view is "contrived" without a shred of Scriptural Support Whatsoever. 

 

 

Without posting the mountains of Scripture in support of Pre-Trib (That is Pre-70th Week of Daniel) just answer the 2 questions below:

 

 

If "The Church" who's Mission is to proclaim the Gospel to the World is still on the Earth during The Great Tribulation, then why the need for the Angel to proclaim it "to those who live on the Earth" in Rev 14?

 

Then after that:

 

How does the "Bride"----------> "The Church" (Born Again Christians), FOLLOW Christ in HIS SECOND COMING (See Rev 19) after the Marriage Supper if they're still on the Earth waiting to be "Raptured" ??

 

 

If you can't answer those in a Post Trib Context......(and you can't), You have just file 13nd your...... "I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen", Statement.

 

 

Don't mistake Simplicity with the Lack of VERACITY.   Most things in this life are Simple.....it's "people" and their "a priori"  UNSUPPORTED World Views that complicate matters.

 

 

They are Helpless Against.......The Two-Edged Sword!!!!

 

 

Praise The LORD!!!!

 

 

 

I really don't want to debate you on this, Enoch.  I could, I just have no interest in defending either side.  I have heard valid arguments in favor of both.  I'm perfectly happy just observing this discussion and seeing how it turns out in the end.

 

When I said I was traditionally pre-trib, I meant that it's what I was taught as a child and accepted as truth because it is what I was told.  My parents were really into it.  I was also traditionally YEC, and you know how that turned out.  After my crisis of faith a few years ago, I've had to do a lot of truth-seeking to figure out what I actually believed and what I just thought I did. 

 

 

I was exaggerating a bit when I said I had no idea what was going to happen.  I have some idea. Jesus is coming back, I know that.  But the rest is purely speculative and just my opinion.  I figure if the people of Jesus' day who studied the coming Messiah didn't know Him when He stood before them, why would I assume I can guess prophecy any better?  I can look for signs, but I don't expect to know for sure. That's kinda the thing with prophecy: we won't see it coming until after it happens.  IMHO, when it actually happens, it probably won't be what most people were expecting.

 

Best to just be ready.

 

[Spock]

To add a bit more to support my OP, consider this from the 13th chapter of revelation:

5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people (saints) and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Spock's musings:
Notice, the AC has been given 3.5 years to do his thing. This is Satans wrath through his vessel, the AC.

So when could this 3.5 years take place?

In my opinion, it has to be in the first half of Daniels 70th week, not the second half.

Why do I say this?

Because God's wrath is poured out through the trumpets and bowls during the second half of the week. This is the Day of The Lord, not the day of Satan. Satans big moment ended at the abomination of desolation. As a result of this blasphemy, God has had enough. I don't see the AC uttering proud boastful words while God is sending the world judgment after judgment. (Think pharaoh during Moses time)

Getting back to the point I want you to see, it says in the above scripture, the AC was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them.

Who are these holy people?

I believe the bulk of this group is the church that did not go through the first fruits rapture (harvest). Remember, because they were not faithful like the church of Philadelphia, they were not kept from the hour of testing that is coming upon the world. Some of these people may have to die for their beliefs, and some may be seriously challenged to hold on. (To be conquered)

Ponder me: if the entire church was lifted before the 70th week, I don't see who God's holy people would be according to this passage. I believe many translations say "saints." I don't buy trib saints and I don't buy faithful Jews.

Anyhow, these are my latest thoughts. What do you think about these? I'd like to read yours. (Don't be upset if I don't debate. I'd rather share my thoughts and read yours. It's more fun for me this way.)

Spock out

[Enoch2021]

 

I really don't want to debate you on this, Enoch.  I could, I just have no interest in defending either side.  I have heard valid arguments in favor of both.  I'm perfectly happy just observing this discussion and seeing how it turns out in the end.

 

When I said I was traditionally pre-trib, I meant that it's what I was taught as a child and accepted as truth because it is what I was told.  My parents were really into it.  I was also traditionally YEC, and you know how that turned out.  After my crisis of faith a few years ago, I've had to do a lot of truth-seeking to figure out what I actually believed and what I just thought I did. 

 

 

I was exaggerating a bit when I said I had no idea what was going to happen.  I have some idea. Jesus is coming back, I know that.  But the rest is purely speculative and just my opinion.  I figure if the people of Jesus' day who studied the coming Messiah didn't know Him when He stood before them, why would I assume I can guess prophecy any better?  I can look for signs, but I don't expect to know for sure. That's kinda the thing with prophecy: we won't see it coming until after it happens.  IMHO, when it actually happens, it probably won't be what most people were expecting.

 

Best to just be ready.

 

 

 

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What faith issue?  Are you referring to our Hebrews 11:1 discussion (still waiting for answers!

 

 

I already gave you the answers.  It's quite intuitive..... not like Tensor Calculus

 

 

 

I really don't want to debate you on this, Enoch.  I could, I just have no interest in defending either side.

 

You wouldn't be debating me, you'd be debating the WORD of GOD.  You have No Interest?    That's like a Biochemist having no interest in the Citric Acid Cycle.

 

 

I have heard valid arguments in favor of both

 

A valid Post Trib argument?  That's news to me.......Show One

 

 

But the rest is purely speculative

 

According to THE WORD it isn't.

 

 

I figure if the people of Jesus' day who studied the coming Messiah didn't know Him when He stood before them, why would I assume I can guess prophecy any better?

 

Yes, then Jesus Prophesied against the City and destroyed it because the didn't do their Due Diligence with Prophecy.  Quite sobering.

 

So you're saying that since the Jews didn't Recognize HIM from Prophecy/Scripture then what's the sense in studying Prophecy/Scripture??  So if The LORD would ask you why you didn't know or had any interest......that would be your answer?  If so, Do you think that would fly?  Yea, me neither.

 

 

That's kinda the thing with prophecy: we won't see it coming until after it happens.

 

Then why did HE write it in THE WORD?  Filler?  Didn't Jesus admonish us to understand....

 

Matthew 24:15:

 

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

 

If you just read that then you are obligated to understand it.  Sorry, I didn't write it.

 

it probably won't be what most people were expecting.

 

 

It'll be exactly what's in The WORD.  Most will be caught unaware because they haven't been......

 

2 Timothy 2:15:

 

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

[Enoch2021]

To add a bit more to support my OP, consider this from the 13th chapter of revelation:

5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people (saints) and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Spock's musings:

Notice, the AC has been given 3.5 years to do his thing. This is Satans wrath through his vessel, the AC.

So when could this 3.5 years take place?

In my opinion, it has to be in the first half of Daniels 70th week, not the second half.

Why do I say this?

Because God's wrath is poured out through the trumpets and bowls during the second half of the week. This is the Day of The Lord, not the day of Satan. Satans big moment ended at the abomination of desolation. As a result of this blasphemy, God has had enough. I don't see the AC uttering proud boastful words while God is sending the world judgment after judgment. (Think pharaoh during Moses time)

Getting back to the point I want you to see, it says in the above scripture, the AC was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them.

Who are these holy people?

I believe the bulk of this group is the church that did not go through the first fruits rapture (harvest). Remember, because they were not faithful like the church of Philadelphia, they were not kept from the hour of testing that is coming upon the world. Some of these people may have to die for their beliefs, and some may be seriously challenged to hold on. (To be conquered)

Ponder me: if the entire church was lifted before the 70th week, I don't see who gods holy people would be according to this passage. I believe many translations say "saints." I don't buy trib saints and I don't buy faithful Jews.

Anyhow, these are my latest thoughts. What do you think about these? I'd like to read yours. (Don't be upset if I don't debate. I'd rather share my thoughts and read yours. It's more fun for me this way.)

Spock out

 

 

 

 

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Spock you're headed off the reservation here.....

 

In my opinion, it has to be in the first half of Daniels 70th week, not the second half

 

Matthew 24:15-21

 

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

Daniel 9:27:

 

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

 

Who are these holy people?

 

The Jews.  The MAIN Purpose of the Great Tribulation is.....

 

Hosea 5:15:

 

"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

satan/beasts' mission is to KILL THEM (The Jewish Remnant That Flee to Bozrah-----Petra) before they can Petition The LORD to return.

[Sheniy]

I already gave you the answers.

 

Not really.  I gave you a METRIC TON of scripture to back up my point, which included the one passage that you claim as your "answer".  Try again.

 

...But not here, because it's off topic.

 

 

 

I really don't want to debate you on this, Enoch.  I could, I just have no interest in defending either side.

 

You wouldn't be debating me, you'd be debating the WORD of GOD.  You have No Interest?    That's like a Biochemist having no interest in the Citric Acid Cycle.

 

 

I have heard valid arguments in favor of both

 

A valid Post Trib argument?  That's news to me.......Show One

 

 

But the rest is purely speculative

 

According to THE WORD it isn't.

 

 

I figure if the people of Jesus' day who studied the coming Messiah didn't know Him when He stood before them, why would I assume I can guess prophecy any better?

 

Yes, then Jesus Prophesied against the City and destroyed it because the didn't do their Due Diligence with Prophecy.  Quite sobering.

 

So you're saying that since the Jews didn't Recognize HIM from Prophecy/Scripture then what's the sense in studying Prophecy/Scripture??  So if The LORD would ask you why you didn't know or had any interest......that would be your answer?  If so, Do you think that would fly?  Yea, me neither.

 

 

That's kinda the thing with prophecy: we won't see it coming until after it happens.

 

Then why did HE write it in THE WORD?  Filler?  Didn't Jesus admonish us to understand....

 

Matthew 24:15:

 

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"

 

If you just read that then you are obligated to understand it.  Sorry, I didn't write it.

 

it probably won't be what most people were expecting.

 

It'll be exactly what's in The WORD.  Most will be caught unaware because they haven't been......

 

2 Timothy 2:15:

 

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

 

This is partly why I don't want to debate you. You seem to assume that your reading and interpretation of the bible is as infallible as the Word itself.  You chop up my post and twist it to mean something else that you can throw an argument or accusation ("logical fallacy!!") at. You don't read what I say to find my intended meaning, you read it to find something you can argue with. You see me as an opponent because I disagreed with you in other topics, so therefore we must be at odds about everything?  If you had read my first post, Enoch, you would have realized that I was considering your side of this argument. I am trying to have an open mind about this.  You really want to debate a post-tribber, go find a post-tribber.

 

Hindsight may be 20/20, but foresight is blind. Prophecy is given by someone with Vision, but often interpreted by the those who can't see (fallible humans).  I study prophecy in Scripture to know the signs, and I lean on the Holy Spirit to lead me.  I don't need to know every detail. I don't need to make a timeline of what will happen, because I'll probably be wrong. It's also not what's important.   When Jesus comes back, He won't commend me on my theories and speculations, but on my readiness.

 

"If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." - 1 Corinthians 13:2