Post Tribbers - Please explain

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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And Revelation 5:8-10 again confirms this. When Christ died, did his atonement for sin not also work to redeem the saints in the Old Testament?

 

No. Christ had yet to become Flesh.  They are under the OT Covenant/Dispensation.

 

In fact, the OT Saints ended with John The Baptist, Note in "Bold"....

 

(Matthew 11:11) " Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

 

The 24 elders sang a new song because there was a more perfect sacrifice for sin

 

Non-sequitur Preposterous.  What was their "Old Song"??

 

Also notice, that once the Lamb had taken the book, not before, were the "us" made into kings and priests. Rev 1:6 reflects this same thought: "...hath made us kings and priests..." after being washed from sins in his blood.

 

You just contradicted yourself.  We were washed from our sins in HIS Blood on the Cross....well before The Lamb took the "book" in Revelation

 

 

Before being made into priests and kings, they were "elders" in heaven.

 

Baloney.  Scripture Support??

 

Also, in the visions of the Throne Room by Ezekiel, Isaiah and Daniel....who's missing?  The 24 Elders.

 

 

The Revelation elders are being represented by the earthly sixteen and eight "sanctuary governors" mentioned in 1 Chronicles.

 

Baloney. Contrived.  Scripture Support?  And they're not Kings and Priests....for the 30th time.

 

 

But, suffice it to say, Christ's redemptive work covered the sins of all believers - from the beginning of time, to the end.

 

Nope.  See OT Covenant/Dispensation mentioned above.  How could the OT Saints believe in Christ when HE wasn't Born Yet?? or Become Flesh??

 

Revelation is a very symbolic book. Agreed?

 

Uh oh....I'm on Red Alert. It contains Many "Idioms"....to be more Precise.

 

 

With that in mind, these elders are symbolic of the priests of the OT.

 

Yep, I knew it was coming.....I noted the set-up with your previous comment: "Revelation is a very symbolic book. Agreed?"

 

GOD'S WORD isn't some Play Toy where you can arbitrarily assign meaning to whatever strikes your fancy or to conform to your "Pre-Ordained" "a priori" adherence's....exactly what you are doing here, IMHO.

 

Your 24 Elder = "chief men" is an Equivocation (Fallacy) without any Support Whatsoever, and Directly Refutable (as I've Shown) from The WORD.

 

 

What are you basing "OT Saints won't be judged until the End Of Days..." on?

 

I've already showed you.....

 

(Daniel 12:13) "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

[mevosper]

 

Your 24 Elder = "chief men" is an Equivocation (Fallacy) without any Support Whatsoever, and Directly Refutable (as I've Shown) from The WORD.

 

You haven't shown anything except your hardness to hearing and seeing. So if you can equivocate the 24 elders to 24 "church somethings", please show me the scripture.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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You haven't shown anything except your hardness to hearing and seeing.

 

Just a Thought here.....if you spent more time doing your homework and less time with Baseless Generalized Unsupported Assertions and "1 liner" Color Commentaries, it would most likely ease your frustrations

 

Just my take

 

 

So if you can equivocate the 24 elders to 24 "church somethings", please show me the scripture.

 

It's not an Equivocation as I've clearly shown.

 

I already did like 5 Times, here it is again (Scroll halfway down the page): 

[mevosper]

enoch2021

 

here you go. 

 

 

 

And Revelation 5:8-10 again confirms this. When Christ died, did his atonement for sin not also work to redeem the saints in the Old Testament?

 

No. Christ had yet to become Flesh.  They are under the OT Covenant/Dispensation.

 

In fact, the OT Saints ended with John The Baptist, Note in "Bold"....

 

(Matthew 11:11) " Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

 

 

Umm, I think you completely missed what I was saying. Christ's redemptive power flowed backwards to cover the sins of the saints of the past, as well as moved forward covering the sins of future believers.

 

 

The 24 elders sang a new song because there was a more perfect sacrifice for sin

 

Non-sequitur Preposterous.  What was their "Old Song"??

 

This "old song" question is a red-herring and a misdirection on your part. The original quotes were:

 

 

 

 

(Revelation 1:6) "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

 

(Revelation 5:8-10) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  {9} And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  {10} And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

 

...and i was referring to your bolding of "sung a new song" and the reason for the "a new song".  If you don't know the reason for the new song, please re-read Rev 5:1-8. Please, stay on topic and I'll be more than happy to humor you.

 

 

 

Also notice, that once the Lamb had taken the book, not before, were the "us" made into kings and priests. Rev 1:6 reflects this same thought: "...hath made us kings and priests..." after being washed from sins in his blood.

 

You just contradicted yourself.  We were washed from our sins in HIS Blood on the Cross....well before The Lamb took the "book" in Revelation

 

 

 

Nope. Didn't contradict myself. I know exactly my thought process. He, Christ, The Lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of Jesse was slain and worth to take the book.

 

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

And this happened the during his crucifixion, burial and resurrection. He was the ultimate sacrifice. Don't you see it!? Revelation, the revealing of Christ, is telling us what and how it happened.

 

 

Before being made into priests and kings, they were "elders" in heaven.

 

Baloney.  Scripture Support??

 

Also, in the visions of the Throne Room by Ezekiel, Isaiah and Daniel....who's missing?  The 24 Elders.

 

 

Elders were in heaven (Rev 4:4) before claiming to be made priests and kings (Rev 5:10).

 

Considering who or what is missing from other books of prophecy...

The wheels are missing from John's heavenly vision.

Mark of the beast is missing from Ezekiel. No angels mentioned in Ezekiel. No Trumpets in Daniel.

There are a number of things that are in some books of prophecy that are not in others.

 

Since they are missing from OT prophetic books, you believe that the elders represent the raptured church. Well, that's quite an assumption really. Can you provide some scripture that relates the number of elders (twenty-four) with the church in some manner?  

 

 

 

The Revelation elders are being represented by the earthly sixteen and eight "sanctuary governors" mentioned in 1 Chronicles.

Baloney. Contrived.  Scripture Support?  And they're not Kings and Priests....for the 30th time.

 

Not contrived. Found in 1 Chronicles. I provided the scripture. If you want to refuse looking at it, I cannot help with that. Notice in Rev 4:4

 

Rev 4:4 KJV

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

These were separate seats surrounding the throne of God. But we see in Rev 3:21, those that overcome (believers, christians, overcomers, etc) are able to sit in the throne with Christ as Christ sits in the throne with the Father, not in separate seats.

 

Rev 3:21 KJV

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

 

But, suffice it to say, Christ's redemptive work covered the sins of all believers - from the beginning of time, to the end.

 

Nope.  See OT Covenant/Dispensation mentioned above.  How could the OT Saints believe in Christ when HE wasn't Born Yet?? or Become Flesh??

 

So you are saying Christ's redemptive work only went forward, and did not cover the sins of saints prior to his work on the cross? Wow, I'll bet John the baptist would be disappointed to know Enoch2021 has limited Christ's redemptive power.  John, having baptized the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, except his and anyone before his time. Dang! and he was so close. <end sarcasm>

 

 

 

Revelation is a very symbolic book. Agreed?

 

Uh oh....I'm on Red Alert. It contains Many "Idioms"....to be more Precise.

 

 

 

So it's not symbolic? Just idomatic and sometimes literal? Or maybe it's symbolic sometimes, idiomatic sometimes, figurative at other and literal all the rest. Or maybe it's a totally spiritual book (since John is in the spirit at least 4 times throughout the book) and to understand it, we need to listen to the Holy Spirit and allow him to open our spiritual eyes with his eye salve (this is figurative, unless you know of a place that is selling spiritual eye salve).

 

It doesn't even have to be symbolic. There are a number of things mentioned in Revelation that relate to Old Testament and New Testament scripture:

24 elders in Revelation. 24 "sanctuary governors" 

Earthquakes in Revelation. There were earthquakes at Christ's crucifixion.

Sun black as sackcloth. The sun was blackened at Christ's crucifixion (for three hours).  

The cube form of new Jerusalem. The Holy of Holies was a cube.

Rev 16:6 the shed blood of saints. Christ rebukes the Pharisees for killing the prophets and saints (Matth 23:29-36) and shedding their blood from Abel to Zechariah.

 

 

Do you have something church related that can account for the 24 elders? Probably not. 

Edited April 28, 2014 by mevosper

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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Umm, I think you completely missed what I was saying. Christ's redemptive power flowed backwards to cover the sins of the saints of the past

 

No I didn't miss your point and provide Scripture Support for the "Flowing Backwards"?

 

 

This "old song" question is a red-herring and a misdirection on your part

 

a "Red Herring" and a Misdirection, eh?  Isn't that redundant?  How is that a distraction when you focused on the New Song.  By saying a "New Song" that presupposes an "Old Song" which I asked you for because you were so hung up on the "New Song".  So again....What was the Old Song?

 

 

If you don't know the reason for the new song, please re-read Rev 5:1-8. Please, stay on topic and I'll be more than happy to humor you.

 

I read it, and still no "Old Song".  How is this off topic when we're talking about songs?  I could see if brought up the process of Saturating Vegetable Oil and such.  Oh you're "Humoring" me.

 

Nope. Didn't contradict myself. I know exactly my thought process. He, Christ, The Lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of Jesse was slain and worth to take the book.

 

And it was a contradiction, go back and read it.  Is there a point for writing  "Lion of The Tribe of Judah" and "The Root of Jesse"?? Relevance? 

 

 

And this happened the during his crucifixion, burial and resurrection. He was the ultimate sacrifice. Don't you see it!? Revelation, the revealing of Christ, is telling us what and how it happened.

 

 

Yes it just happened 60 years ago to John but He wrote this somewhere of the vicinity of 90 AD.  BUT when John is writing this Specific Passage, he was writing of the Things "Hereafter".....

 

(Revelation 4:1) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

 

See that Bolded Part.....He was transported to "The Day of The LORD"  FUTURE.  Everything from Chapter 4 is FUTURE, as in.....

 

(Revelation 1:19) "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

 

So @ this time we know it's @ least been 2000 years and still counting....Revelation hasn't Occurred Yet.   Follow?

 

I actually haven't the first clue of your point or Relevance to the 24 Elders anyway.

 

Elders were in heaven (Rev 4:4) before claiming to be made priests and kings (Rev 5:10).

 

Oh so since they didn't say it until Rev 5:10 that means they weren't Kings and Priests before Rev 5:10?  Are you kidding me???  What all of a sudden made them Kings and Priests in Rev 5 then?     <--------I can't wait for that answer

 

And....  Peter and John already Identified who the Kings and Priests were........"The Church" :

 

(1 Peter 2:9) "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

 

(Revelation 1:6) "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

 

John is declaring in The First Chapter (before the Hereafter) of Revelation who the Kings and Priests are...and is Including Himself.   <---------Big Clue

 

And AGAIN,  taking into account that in the OT the Jews were Prohibited from Royalty (Judah) and Priests (Levites) overlapping....you slowly come to the realization of the Facts staring you in the face above.

 

Considering who or what is missing from other books of prophecy...

 

The wheels are missing from John's heavenly vision.

Mark of the beast is missing from Ezekiel. No angels mentioned in Ezekiel. No Trumpets in Daniel.

There are a number of things that are in some books of prophecy that are not in others.

 

Seriously?  This is your argument?

 

Can you provide some scripture that relates the number of elders (twenty-four) with the church in some manner?

 

So other than their proclaimed Identity? 

 

I do...... but I will not share it on a Public Board.  I have enough with Kings and Priests.

 

 

Not contrived. Found in 1 Chronicles. I provided the scripture. If you want to refuse looking at it, I cannot help with that.

 

I didn't say you contrived the first Chronicles Passage, that's legit.  I said You contrived the Equivocation (Fallacy) of "chief men" = 24 Elders and then refuted it out of Hand based on Scripture (See previous Post With Daniel and OT Kings and Priest)

 

 

Rev 4:4 KJV

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

These were separate seats surrounding the throne of God. But we see in Rev 3:21, those that overcome (believers, christians, overcomers, etc) are able to sit in the throne with Christ as Christ sits in the throne with the Father, not in separate seats.

 

Rev 3:21 KJV

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

 

I'm glad you brought this up and hopefully this will serve as a Good Exegesis Lesson to Exercise in the Future.....

 

You see that word "seats"....

 

That's Strongs # 2362:  "Thronos".   Those Seats Are THRONES..... 24 of them for Kings and Priests.  If your still having difficulty with the concept, then look @ what they have on their Heads: Crowns  (stephanos-----Royalty)

 

I'm sure many many people will "sit with GOD" on his Throne.  Are you saying that Precludes the Fact that those "Thrones" are dedicated to the 24 Elders??

 

 

So you are saying Christ's redemptive work only went forward, and did not cover the sins of saints prior to his work on the cross?

 

No I'm not saying it; I would never venture there...... I'm Saying, GOD SAID IT.  And I provided you with The Specific Passage.  Look @ it closely.

 

It's also quite intuitive....since, how can you have Faith in HIM or HIS Redemptive Power if you were dead before HE Rose From the Dead?

 

Please list the OT Saints that Heard and Read the Gospel?  Then define the Gospel?

 

 

John, having baptized the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, except his and anyone before his time.

 

How did Christ take away the sins of the World?  AND  Was John The Baptist alive then?

 

I never said or implied they (John The Baptist or any OT Saint) wouldn't make it.  All I said is that they were under the OT Covenant/Dispensation (which they are).

 

 

So it's not symbolic? Just idomatic and sometimes literal? Or maybe it's symbolic sometimes, idiomatic sometimes, figurative at other and literal all the rest.

 

There are over 200 Rhetorical Devices (Metaphors, Idioms, Allegories, Similes, "Types", Hypocatastasis', Synechdoche's) in Scripture and Revelation is Chalk full of Them.  Most are readily recognizable with a little homework and study.  You just have to Rightly Divide and Respect The WORD.

 

 

Or maybe it's a totally spiritual book (since John is in the spirit at least 4 times throughout the book)

 

So since John is "in Spirit" 4 times that  ='s The Book of Revelation is "Maybe" Spiritual, eh?

 

Look up Equivocation.

 

I'd be careful of "Spiritualizing" GOD'S WORD....

 

(Matthew 5:18) " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

 

 

"Do you have something church related that can account for the 24 elders? Probably not."

 

Other than their Proclaimed Identity (That I've provided to you personally 3 times including above, and to the thread about 20 times).......no, not much.

 

 

"It doesn't even have to be symbolic. There are a number of things mentioned in Revelation that relate to Old Testament and New Testament scripture"

 

There's over 800 Allusions to the OT in Revelation.

[Matt36]

Christians are being killed daily in the muslim countries as we speak. Enoch 2021 are you saying they aren't being overcome by satan. They are included in that number under the alter are they not. I don't get you, when someone points out a hole in your doctrine, you just brush it aside and keep going as though they never said anything.

Agreed, and there are thousands being martyred in africa and other places right now as we speak.

 

So if God is allowing this, as he said he would many times in the bible and it happened to Him Himself, and we are not greater than the master then................?

 

How is it that only those christians alive at the rapture, and not all of them, (some still being martyred) how is it that this precious group are too holy to be martyred? Just doesnt make any sense at all.

[Matt36]

It was posted: "Back a chapter i believe we see the rapture in chapter 7"

Where does ekklesia occur in Rev 7?

Where is anyone caught up in Rev 7?

Where is a meeting in the air with the Lord by saints in Rev 7?

Where does harpazō occur in Rev 7?

Hi Atwood,   that would have been me who posted that.

 

Well if im honest it does not.

 

But i dont see an issue because neither is there any description used above for before the tribulation either.

 

So if it cant be found during the tribulation, and it cant be found described before the tribulation then i think the point you are making is a mute one.

 

Rather we should find events told by Jesus in Luke and Matt and find this events in revelation, which we do in rev 6-8. Scripture interpreting scripture.

[Matt36]

Matt I didnt fully explain what I meant in my earlier post on matt 24 and revelation 12.

In matt 24:8 it says all these are the beginning of sorrows... then in verse nine it says then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted , and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name sake...

now in rev. 12:13 it explains the dragon persecuted israel and if you keep reading to verse 17 you see it says the dragon goes after christians. Which 12:7 is a real obstical for any pretribber to explain away due to it saying the remnant of her seed (israel) which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus christ. It says right there christians on earth.

But anyway you see scripture interpreting scripture as you put it, in matt 24 first beginning of sorrows then tribulous persecution then again in chapter 12 of revelations we can see where the persecution begins and also I would like to point out a good portion of the worlds eyes are on israel right now and according to rev 12 the beast goes for israel then christians.

Hi Cletus,

 

I dont really have any issue with your comments. I agree as a whole but it does say that  Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished,

 

The mystery is the church so i have difficulty coming to terms that the church continues after this point. And because it is the church that is raptured then i think the rapture must happen prior to Chapter 10, such as chap 7.

 

However, i agree that these ppl you speak of are christians as christians continue all the way into anf through the millenium. I guess these are they that you speak of and are not called to the marriage supper.

 

Just my thoughts bro

Edited April 29, 2014 by Matt36

[Montana Marv]

inchrist

 

Your false doctrine is full of holes.

 

Eph 5:25-33  -  In essence - Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her. v.31 - For this reason a man will leave his father and mother to be united to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. v.32 - This is a profound mystery - but I am talking about Christ and the Church.

 

We are His Bride, When that last person receives Salvation and becomes part of this group of Believers, The Bride/Church will be complete, and Jesus Christ the Bridegroom will come for His Bride the Church in the (Harpozo, Rapture).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

Those filled with the HS as those at Pentecost.  This separates the Bride from all others.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv