salt and light Posted December 25, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 302 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/04/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2004 Cutting down a tree, or buying one whether it be real or not, and fastening it down so it won't move, and decorating it to worship or celebrate the birth of a god, or the Son of the true God, is a no no, and that is what Jeremiah is refering to. Lets take a close look at Jeremiah 10, "......... for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with an ax. { My dad's cousin used to cut a tree out of the forest right by his home in the state of West Virginia with an ax at this time of year, and my grand father did too.} " They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. { My dad's cousin and my grand father would bring their tree that they cut down into their homes and they would fasten them down with something, I think with hammers and nails, anyway, they would keep their trees from falling over, and they would deck it with silver and gold bulbs, and silver and gold garland and silver icicles, it may not have been genuine siver and gold, but they decked the trees non the less, and why? to celebrate the birth of a god, which just happened to be the real God. I say what they used to do every year at this time fits Jeremiah 10 perfectly. My dad used to buy a real tree every year at this time that someone had to cut down out of a forest, or he bought a tree that grew somewhere and my dad would put the bottom of it in a tree stand and nail it down with a hammer and nails so it wouldn't fall over, and we would deck it, and that fits Jeremiah 10 perfectly. My dad eventually would just buy an artificial tree, but still, not much different from what Jeremiah 10 is talking about, it is the same idea. I say that Jeremiah 10 verses 3 and 4 is refering to what we call a christmas tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Christian Posted December 25, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 205 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/10/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2004 Okay, I've been quiet so far, but enough is enough. Has Christmas turned commercial? Yes. Did it have ancient pagan origins? According to alot of the scripture that has been expressed, quite possibly. Now, can anyone disagree with the fact that God can take can take anything meant for evil and make it for good?Let's see, I don't like the commercialism anymore than anyone else. Does it take away from God some, Yes. How many people go to Christmas pageants at a church where their son or daughter goes and have never been there only to take their child to church on Wednesdays or for Sunday School? How many do you think have really no idea who Christ is,why he came, and what he can do for them?This is maybe the only way they will hear the Gospel and recieve Jesus in their hearts. Does scripture say we should celebrate Jesus' birth? Well, when he came it was certainly cause for celebration!If this was not important why would three wise men take an approximate two year journey to see him and pay tribute to him and bring him precious gifts? Is December 25th the actual birthday of Jesus Christ? Most likely not. We no longer honor two of our greatest Presidents on their own birthdays? No. Does that make their role in the events of The United States and the world any less valuable? Do we thank God that he used them to guide our country? We should. If you don't want a tree, don't. If you choose not to celebrate Christmas the way it is today, don't. But listen to this: I used to work in a nusing home. I saw more good Christian people that had nearly nothing to look forward to as far as the world, but I saw faces light up and tears come down their cheeks as they sung as loud as their little voices could, Silent Night. You tell a 90 year old sunday school teacher( that brought more little kids to Christ than more Phd's) that she/he was wrong all these years, I know I wouldn't want to be next to you as you get the tongue lashing from them, as they proceed to tell you that they believe in CHRISTMAS, and they are glad their place they call home is decorated with trees and lights, and with the thought that the Jolly Man in the red suit really isn't real, but they were so glad to get the fuzzy slippers from that guy, they cried and hugged him so tight it made him tear up. How do I know this? I worked in one for two years, and I was the Jolly Man in the red suit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 25, 2004 Share Posted December 25, 2004 Cutting down a tree, or buying one whether it be real or not, and fastening it down so it won't move, and decorating it to worship or celebrate the birth of a god, or the Son of the true God, is a no no, and that is what Jeremiah is refering to. No that is what you are assuming it is talking about. You and Bibleboy are trying to impose the Christmas tree on to Jeremiah 10. If you actually studied the passage properly and used the correct methods of interpretation, you would discover that it is talking about carved idols that were plated with silver and gold and draped in expensive fabrics. They were nailed down so that they would not topple over. The passage in Jeremiah 10 even talks about carrying these idols around. There is no sound exegesis that makes this passage refer to the Christmas tree. It is talking about pagan idolatry in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 25, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 25, 2004 We have this same argument every Christmas. I agree that Jeremiah was not talking about the Christmas tree. For one thing, nobody worships a Christmas tree! It is nothing more than a decoration - just like the lights put up on some homes. Consider this, if the Jeremiah was prophetic passage concerning Christmas trees, why would the tree be the only aspect of the celebration that is expressed? Why no mention of Yule logs or fruitcake or mistletoe or the exchange of gifts? And why of all our modern holidays with pagan origins would Christmas be the only one addressed? What about bunnies and egg hunts at Easter - where is the prophetic Scripture for that? Halloween? May Day? Concerning the name: Even the name "Christmass" is an abomination to the Lord. Christmass is a combination of two words, "Christ" and "Mass." Christ is the divine title of our Lord. "Mass" is from the Roman Catholic sacrament of the mass. Certainly born-again Christians shouldn't have anything to do with masses. The mass is a Roman Catholic invention. The mass is a prayer that is read or sung or the soul of a dead person. Every time you say "Merry Christmas," you are actually mixing the precious and holy name of Christ with a demon holiday. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, first I disagree about th definition of "Mass." Mass is the term Catholics use for their worship services. Now, if you want to get down to it, the whole entire format for our worship services are modeled after what came before. no matter how different services are from Catholic to Lutheran to Presbyterian to Methodist to Interdenominational to any other Christian denomination all ha.ve a similar format. You see, when Lutherans broke off of Catholicism, the Lutherans based their services off what they were familiar with, just with some slight changes. When the Calvinists (I think they were next in line) broke off from there, they too followed what they were familiar with, just with slight changes. And so on and so forth. Now, I saw a documentary on either the History Channel or the Learning Channel or Discovery Channel about Roman worship (that is, the worship of the Romans during the Roman Empire). It turns out that the worship services (Mass) celebrated by the Roman Catholic Church was modeled after the format used by the Romans to worship their gods in their temples! Conclusion: any time you attend a church service, you are worshiping the Lord based on a style that originated with the worship of Roman gods! So, if you want to purify yourself of all things with pagan origins, you are going to need to either change the format of your church services, or start a new one that is nothing like what you grew up with! Second, this is the English word for the holiday. In French it is called "Noel," and in Spanish it is called "Navidad." I do not know what "Noel" means, but I do know that "Navidad" means "Nativity." (Give that one to the ACLU!) As for the origins - this I can appreciate concerns about. This issue here becomes an interpretation issue for individuals, and one for which I do not believe should be a law. Here is where I come from in this. In the first century, there was a division among the believers about whether or not the Gentile believers had to convert to Judaism in order to be saved. The Apostles, after much debate, finally concluded that no, Gentiles did not have to convert to Judaism. Fast forward to modern days. I have heard many stories about a grave error comitted by Christian missionaries to tribal cultures. In an effort to purify the tribal people of paganism, the Christians have forced the tribal people into Westernization. Basically, the tribal people were stripped of their entire culture. I have read several testimonies of how hurtful and destructive this practice has been to these tribal people. But I also have heard and read testimonies of those who have found they can keep their culture, yet change it such that it worship Jesus rather than what it was used as before. Richard Twiss, a Lakota/Sioux writes about this: Culture, Christ, & Kingdom Seminar Study Guide (excert) (If it make it easier, I will paste this excert in a preceding post) I have been to a Many Nations, One Voice celebration (a ministry Richard Twiss founded) where Natives dressed in traditonal garb and worshiped with traditional instruments and traditional dance styles - feathers drums and all - items which Christians in the past forbade them to use for their "pagan origins." I can personally testify that the presence of the Lord was strong there! So, how does this relate to Christmas? If you can put two and two together, maybe you can see. European and Asian Gentiles when coming to Christ had to deal with whether or not to change their culture just the same as these tribal peoples do today. Do you take away their culture and turn them into Jews, making them follow Jewish cultures and traditions, or do you let them keep their culture yet change the focus? Would you tell a Native American that he cannot use an eagle feather to symbolize the eternal life he found in Christ because of the pagan (animistic) origins of the use of the eagle feather as a symbol for eternal life? Do you go back in history and tell the Celts they cannot us mistletoe or evergreen trees to symbolize eternal life for the same reasons? This is how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 25, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 25, 2004 The article I linked to above (with highlights I added I believe relevant to our discussion): Culture, Christ, & Kingdom Seminar Study Guide (Chapter excerpts) by Richard Twiss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted December 25, 2004 Share Posted December 25, 2004 I celebrate the advent of our Messiah and Redeemer EVERY DAY! The devil can't have a single one of them.... For cultural reasons, the whole world joins with me on the gregorian calendar date of December 25th....and that is a good thing. Hallelujah!!! Let everything with breath come and praise the Lord! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted December 25, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2004 It's one of two days out of the year when the secular world calms down and acknowledges the birth of a Savoir...and we criticize it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted December 25, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 25, 2004 Bibleboy, I have a question: so what if Christmas has a pagan origin? You realize that alot of things we use do not have pure origins right? Even the days of the week and names of the calendar months have pagan origins. But the point is, where does Scripture teach we can't participate in things or use things that have pagan origins? If you read Romans 14, in fact, Paul teaches that under the new covenant we're allowed to eat food which was once sacrificed to idols. Plus, you need to remember that God looks at the heart. It's your own motive and intent that matters to God. Whatever day you observe, if it's unto the Lord, He will be pleased. Remember, He created every day in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGR Posted December 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 512 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 8,601 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/16/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/04/1973 Share Posted December 26, 2004 I've already said this in another discussion, and I'll say it again. Satan has tried his darndest to copy anything to do with Christianity. In pre-Christian religions, we find Satan copied the virgin birth, the death and ressurection of the deity, and many other things. Would it be beyond consideration that Jesus was actually born in December and Satan copied that as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted December 26, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2004 I've already said this in another discussion, and I'll say it again. Satan has tried his darndest to copy anything to do with Christianity. In pre-Christian religions, we find Satan copied the virgin birth, the death and ressurection of the deity, and many other things. Would it be beyond consideration that Jesus was actually born in December and Satan copied that as well? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ironic you should say that. The religion simply called "Mother and Child" dates is the basis for almost all false religions out there. In ancient Egypt it was Osiris and Isis, in Greece it was Venus and Adonis, and in Hindu it's Ushas and Vishnu. In Jeremiah she's (Nimrod's wife, Semiramis, the founder of false religions) the "Queen of Heaven". So the idea of a virgin birth of a savoir pre-dates Christianity...so if all things pagan are to be abandoned, then we have to kiss Christianity good-bye. Thanks for bringing that up Ronald, I had completely forgotten about that correlation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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