Apologetic on Slavery & Rape in the Bible

[Guest shiloh357]

Wouldn't it have made life so much easier if God had put into his Holy Book that we were not to own each other....?  So simple...I'll never understand that one, but I'm sure He's glad I'm asking the question if only to teach some about His Book.

You are not a Christian.  You have nothing to teach us about the Bible.

[Bonky]

Edited June 19, 2014 by Bonky

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm not sure how any of this answers my question. Or if we say you have answered it, you answered it by saying "I can check my faith in the supernatural by using the supernatural".

 

You were saying there isn't mechanism for telling us when we are right and wrong.   For you, that might be true.  My point is that because we are in relationship with God, we do have a mechanism and it is the presence of God dwelling within us.  He guides us and He speaks to us through His Word.  Since you are not a Christian this doesn't make sense to you as you have no point of reference for this kind of relationship with.   That you're not a Christian also goes a long way in explaining why you're really not equipped to understand much about the Christian faith.

 

The Bible says this about people like you:  "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.(1Cor 2:14)

 

Relying on second or third hand information about a series of supernatural events.

 

Not entirely, two of the gospels,   Matthew and John, were eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life and ministry.  Mark's Gospel has internal evidence that it is actually Peter's recounting of the life and ministry of Jesus. and Luke, a doctor, based his Gospel on a careful examination of the facts as well as having interviewed the eyewitnesses.

 

Even if some of the accounts are second hand, it doesn't follow that they can be discarded as false or fake or inaccurate.   We operate a lot of the time on second hand information in other contexts, so it is rather lame to use "second hand information" as an excuse to reject the Gospels simply because they contain information you don't want to believe.

 

The scientists aren't making the claims about a global flood, the Bible is.

 

Yeah, we have established that already??

 

 

I know we obviously come from different starting points on things but I can't believe you're telling me that there's a global conspiracy to ignore or conceal evidence that would support a biblical claim.

You've lost me. Why would secular geologists care one way or the other if the global flood story is true? What damage does that do to their position on anything? I mean the WHOLE community of geologists out there are in agreement to make sure nobody finds out the global flood was real?

 

Well I didnt' say anything about a global conspiracy. That is the value you are assigning to me.   I said that scientists are like other people.  They are not merely rational, emotionless people.  The biblical claims of a global flood impact how secular, atheistic scientists view how the world was formed.  It affects how we understand the fossil record and it shapes how we understand the formation of things like the Grand Canyon.  The global flood of the Bible effects the claim that the geological columns prove the earth is billions of years old.  If those columns occurred merely because of a global flood because of billions of years of gradual formation, it challenges the credibility of modern evolutionary science on the most fundamental level.  Evolution needs billions and billions of years in order to be viable and the global flood threatens the religion of evolution.

 

There is evidence that scientists either laugh off or ignore, but they won't investigate and if anyone challenges their status quo claims, those people are demonized and ridiculed. 

 

There is a lot riding on this for scientists who have staked their reputations and their careers on what they believe is true and so any threat to their theories or research has to be put down.  It isn't about truth, at that point.  It is about personal credibility and respect among colleagues and in the academic community, that is worth more than gold, more than life itself.

 

I guess I would need an example of what you're talking about. I recall when they found the "hobbits" in the Island of Flores. I remember scientists making claims that they were a new species of human and others absolutely disagreed. So I find it a bit disheartening that you would try to make scientists sound like they're generally dishonest people who lack integrity. Sure scientists argue and disagree, but in the end, if your data/claims are verified, YOU WIN.

 

I know.  We seem to have this exalted view of scientists that they are bastions of rationality and pure truth.  But that is not the case.  They are people and people are dishonest at times.  All of us have been dishonest at times and it is part of human nature.  And when your reputation is on the line, when you could lose your job for not following the party line, you will do things you would not otherwise do.

 

So they had a different interpretation of scripture than you do, I don't think that disqualifies them as Christian. I don't know how many times I've been told that the Israelites were used as a tool of judgment on pagan/immoral nations. How do you know God didn't have other times when he used this option. The Spanish killed many of the Mayans who were into human sacrifice. If it's ok for the Israelites why not the Spanish?

 

It had nothing to do with interpretation of Scripture.  The crusades had nothing to do with how anyone was interpreting Scripture.  These were not Christians.  The crusaders believed that they were "Christians when they entered the Holy Land and passed through the Jordan river.  The crusader knights were thieves and murderers who were imprisoned back home.  The Pope needed an army and so they enlisted prisoners who were going to be put to death anyway and he used them to fill his army. 

 

The Spanish dealt harshly with the remnants of the Mayan Kingdom that had collapsed some 600 years before Columbus.  None of these things were in the name of Jesus or done out of religious fervor.  Gold and treasure were usually the goal.  They were on a mission for human kings and for their country, which is what separates them from how God used the Israelites to judge the Canaanites.

 

But this is just your opinion. You don't like the results [i don't blame you] and declare it misguided use of faith. What if the child survived? They could chalk it up as a miracle and answered prayers. What also strikes me as odd is that if we look globally at all the faith people have in mysticism, shamanism, religion, etc etc...you would say they're all misguided/deluded EXCEPT the ones that jive with your Judeo Christian view of faith. That tells me [and it should tell you] that overall, the concept of faith is rooted in things that are shabby and sloppy. There is NO system to tell you that you're headed in the wrong direction with your faith.

 

the results are usually dead children.   Once and a while someone will beat the odds, but my claims that they are misguided have nothing to do with "my" view of faith.  That they are misguided comes from a whole plethora of evidence and information, not to mention the tragic loss of people's  lives.   Those mystics and shamans and mystics don't have a really good track record, generally speaking. 

 

Apparently some people take John 14:13 literally and think that if they have enough faith God will heal their child. I also did not limit the problems of faith to believing in Christ. The Bible asks you to have faith in a lot more than Christ. I also am [once again] not limiting my criticism to the Christian faith, I'm talking about a principle.

 

Yes some people do misuse John 14:13 to think that God will give them whatever they want.  They treat that verse like a blank check and that is not how faith works.  But there are Christian people who are as flawed in their understanding of faith as you are. 

 

The ;thing is, I am talking about genuine faith in the right object.  Your faith is only as good as its object.  Look at the foolish things people put faith in and they are worse off for it (astrologists, the lottery, tarot cards, crystals and charms, etc, )

 

The difference between that and putting faith in God is that they are putting faith in people and things because of what they think they will get (a better job, more money, bigger house, a spouse, a more luxurious car)  They are using those things in a selfish pursuit of worldly gain. The worldly approach is to use faith to avoid the problems of life.  The Buddhist faith for example is all about a retreat from suffering and pain.

 

As Christians our faith is in God because of what He has done, not because he is our celestial Santa Claus.  We  put our faith in Him because He has proven Himself faith in the past and we know that He works all things out for our good.  I don't have to pray for money or other worldly things because I have a Heavenly Father who knows what I need before I need it and He always provides.   He can be trusted when times are good and when times are bad.   What we get from our faith is worth more than physical healing.

[Guest shiloh357]

I never said it was an error, I said it's not exactly a great design.

 

Which implies that there is a better design.

 

 

I'm also not sure how eating or drinking is "misusing" your throat.

 

I guess you missed the part where I mentioned eating too much too fast, talking while eating, etc.

 

This is an argument from incredulity, a fallacy. If complexity requires a designer, who designed God? If God doesn't need a designer then that would be a special pleading fallacy.

 

 

Not true.  God is an eternal being, having neither beginning nor end.  He is the uncaused cause.  That is not special pleading.

 

You may not like the term "magic", but on the other hand you admitted that creation was a supernatural event. Is turning sticks/rods into snakes akin to "magic"?

 

Magic isn't supernatural. Magic is deception illusion.   Magic cannot turn snakes into sticks.

 

I never made any claim about ruling out any gods. YOUR claim is that we need one to explain the Universe. It simply isn't true.

 

Yes,  we do.  Because, how we view where you come from shapes our worldview and it shapes the value we place on others.

 

 

That's not the courts burden, it's the proponents of ID that need to support the claims of ID. I can claim I have an invisible dragon in my garage, saying "So far nobody has proven it to be false" is not getting me anywhere.

 

 

I am not saying that its the court's  burden.  I saying that it was pretty much shut down, not refuted by the scientific community. 

 

I accept that this is your belief, it just sounds bizarre to me.

 

How is "justice" a bizarre concept?

[Bonky]

Which implies that there is a better design.

If we were able to modify humans such that choking deaths are greatly reduced, would this new body plan be "better"?

 

 

 

Not true.  God is an eternal being, having neither beginning nor end.  He is the uncaused cause.  That is not special pleading.

Your second sentence is where the special pleading comes into play.

You are using special pleading because what you're saying is actually this:

Everything has a cause*

The universe had a cause.

Therefore, God caused it.

*except for my God.

 

Magic isn't supernatural. Magic is deception illusion.   Magic cannot turn snakes into sticks.

When I look up the definition of magic, I see use of the term supernatural and/or mysterious "forces". I think you're splitting hairs a little bit.

Yes,  we do.  Because, how we view where you come from shapes our worldview and it shapes the value we place on others.

It doesn't make sense to believe something because if it's true you see value in it.

 

 

How is "justice" a bizarre concept?

The idea that God had to have some special relationship with an ancient tribe to ensure that a special person was born [which he impregnates the mother to be] so that this special person can later be sacrificed and thus bring a solution to the "sin" problem. That sounds bizarre to me.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Bonky

    Cute name......Welcome to Worthy! I would like to comment on your very last statement,,,,,,if I may?It was not a special relationship with some ancient tribe thatensured a "special person was born"         Before any tribe or even before the foundations of the earth were laid,,,,that "special person" was already here.....that person belongs to the GodHead Triune,He is the 2nd person in the Holy Trinity which is Alpha & Omega,from Everlasting to Everlasting........& always was & is,,,,,,,

 

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God                                             John 1:1

 Jesus is God ,Who left His majesty in Heaven to walk as we do in the Flesh that He may be the Atoning Sacrifice for the sins of the world,,,,,,,every person ever born (past,present & future)....you & I ........He was not as you think "Sacrificed" but in fact He gave His life as the Sacrifice for each individual that has Faith in the knowledge of Who He is & that He died on the cross &  rose again on the 3rd day.......The "sin problem" that condemns a man to eternal damnation is "solved" by the Grace of God ,through  FAITH in the Son

    I understand Gods Truths are difficult for you to comprehend but perhaps Shilloh can elaborate on my brief attempt to explain them to you and as He has already told you what the Bible tells us about people like yourself(non-Christian)

 

The Bible says this about people like you:  "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.                                               (1Cor 2:14)

     WE can only pray that God will draw you unto Himself & soften your heart that you may receive His Word......

                                                                                                                         With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Hawkins]

First, the Jews are not allowed to actively enslave fellow Hebrews. In Exodus time, slavery is well regulated. Comparatively, the Egyptians killed the Jews' children on-sight simply because the Jew got over-populated. While in Jeremiah's time, all slaves should be freed.

Lev 25:35
If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you.

So the first measure to be taken in case of a poor fellow Jew is to help him out. Even in the case that the poor Jew decided to sell himself out, do not treat him as a slave.

Lev 25:39-44
39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.

40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 
41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 
42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 
43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. 
44 “ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 


In the year of Jubilee, all slaves male or female will be freed. 

As for female slaves. They are free to go as male slaves.

Deut 15:12-15
12 If any of your people—Hebrew men or women—sell themselves to you and serve you six years, in the seventh year you must let them go free. 13 And when you release them, do not send them away empty-handed. 14 Supply them liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to them as the Lord your God has blessed you. 15Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

God gave them command to free male and female slaves alike. God reminded them that they should do so because God redeemed them from Egypt.

However, there are technical difficulties when this is implemented in reality. As a result, there are some rules going into the detailed situations.

The first of this is female slaves sold by their fathers. Under most circumstance, they are taken as wives one way or another. That's why they are not freed the same way as male slaves. However, the owners will have to do the following,

The first option is to take them as wives or concubines, they need to treat them equally as the non-slave wives and concubines.

The second option is to take them as wives of their children. The same applies that they should be treated equally as non-slave wives.

The third option is to allow them to be redeemded to other owners will be able to do the above 2 options.

If the owners failed to do the above three, they should allow the female slaves to go free.

Exodus 21:8-118 
8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 
9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 
10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 
11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.


The second problem is that when the owners gave wives to male slaves, say in their sixth years of service. In the seven year the male slaves may go free together with the female slaves who could be new in service. As a result, rule is set that the female slaves will be freed this way along with the male slave. They are freed by other means, that is, the 3 points listed above with the final resolution that the female slave will finally go free.

As you can see here, the slavery system in Israel is not like other slavery systems around the world at the time of Exodus. The motive is to help the poor out. And in Jeremiah's time, all slaves shall be freed. 

Jeremiah 34:8-9
8 The word came to Jeremiah from the LORD after King Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people in Jerusalem to proclaim freedom for the slaves. 
9 Everyone was to free their Hebrew slaves, both male and female; no one was to hold a fellow Hebrew in bondage.

[Hawkins]

There are 2 slavery systems co-existed here, one is the Hebrew slavery system which is a "work program" to help the poor out. The second is a worldwide practiced slavery system adapted by non-Jews.

Again, comparatively, the Egyptians can kill the Jews' children on sight simply because the Jews got over-populated. You can't expect that all the Jews are saints and are totally isolated from their living world. God doesn't demand that either, that's not the priority at that moment. God spent 40 years in the wildereness just to train them to be obedient in order to carry forward God's message of salvation, and to treat each other well. That's the priority. Only after entering Canaan and educated through the 10 commandments and Mosaic law, the Jews changed to be better people. During Exodus there's not much difference between the Jews and their surrounding human groups.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 20 Jun 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Which implies that there is a better design.

If we were able to modify humans such that choking deaths are greatly reduced, would this new body plan be "better"?

 

So you're saying that our current design is flawed, after all?  Such a modifcation is ridiculous to even contemplate, but I suppose if it helps deflect from the responses you would prefer to ignore, oh well....

 

 

shiloh357, on 20 Jun 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Not true.  God is an eternal being, having neither beginning nor end.  He is the uncaused cause.  That is not special pleading.

Your second sentence is where the special pleading comes into play.

You are using special pleading because what you're saying is actually this:

Everything has a cause*

The universe had a cause.

Therefore, God caused it.

*except for my God.

 

More accurately everything that comes into existence has a cause.   First cause is not special pleading.   Special pleading is when you demand an exclusion without justification.

 

All vertebrae have spines

My dog is a vertebrae

Therefore, my dog has a spine.

 

If I demand that my dog is is not a vertebrae or that he has no spine, I am engaging in special pleading.

 

Saying that there must be an ultimate cause for the universe demands that the ultimate cause not have a cause.  Otherwise there would be a never ending string of causes going on through the indeterminate past, which even science rejects as plausible.

 

So it works like this

 

Everything that began to exist has a cause

The universe began to exist

Therefore the universe must have a cause.

 

Excluding God as the first cause and thus an uncaused cause isn't special pleading.

 

 

shiloh357, on 20 Jun 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Magic isn't supernatural. Magic is deception illusion.   Magic cannot turn snakes into sticks.

When I look up the definition of magic, I see use of the term supernatural and/or mysterious "forces". I think you're splitting hairs a little bit.

 

No, it isn't splitting hairs.  Most magic  is fakery and deception.   There supernatural forces that occultists do tap into, but that isn't really "magic."

 

But equating God to magic is just nonsense.  He has the power to create the laws the unvierse operates by and He also has the power to interfere or suspend those laws whenever He wants because He is sovereign and because the Creator is always separate from and greater than the creation.

 

 

shiloh357, on 20 Jun 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Yes,  we do.  Because, how we view where you come from shapes our worldview and it shapes the value we place on others.

It doesn't make sense to believe something because if it's true you see value in it.

 

If we really believe that we are nothing but a collection of molecules and chemicals, if we believe that human beings are really nothing more than higher primates, it affects how we view and value and value other people.

 

If we believe that we are made in God's image as a special creation apart from the rest of the created order, that has a different affect on how we view other people.

 

shiloh357, on 20 Jun 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

How is "justice" a bizarre concept?

The idea that God had to have some special relationship with an ancient tribe to ensure that a special person was born [which he impregnates the mother to be] so that this special person can later be sacrificed and thus bring a solution to the "sin" problem. That sounds bizarre to me.

 

What is really bizarre is that God would want to redeem us in the first place.  

[Bonky]

So you're saying that our current design is flawed, after all?  Such a modifcation is ridiculous to even contemplate, but I suppose if it helps deflect from the responses you would prefer to ignore, oh well....

I don't know if flawed is the right word, but certainly not the work of an omnipotent being.

 

More accurately everything that comes into existence has a cause.   First cause is not special pleading.   Special pleading is when you demand an exclusion without justification.

 

All vertebrae have spines

My dog is a vertebrae

Therefore, my dog has a spine.

 

If I demand that my dog is is not a vertebrae or that he has no spine, I am engaging in special pleading.

 

Saying that there must be an ultimate cause for the universe demands that the ultimate cause not have a cause.  Otherwise there would be a never ending string of causes going on through the indeterminate past, which even science rejects as plausible.

 

So it works like this

 

Everything that began to exist has a cause

The universe began to exist

Therefore the universe must have a cause.

 

Excluding God as the first cause and thus an uncaused cause isn't special pleading.

Some claim this isn't special pleading but I think it is. You're simply making up an eternal being on the fly when you have no justification.

 

No, it isn't splitting hairs.  Most magic  is fakery and deception.   There supernatural forces that occultists do tap into, but that isn't really "magic."

 

But equating God to magic is just nonsense.  He has the power to create the laws the unvierse operates by and He also has the power to interfere or suspend those laws whenever He wants because He is sovereign and because the Creator is always separate from and greater than the creation.

Ok I think you're just getting hung up on symantecs. Magic is an insult but miracles are ok? The point is, a mysterious power is being tapped into in order to create or change reality.

 

 

If we really believe that we are nothing but a collection of molecules and chemicals, if we believe that human beings are really nothing more than higher primates, it affects how we view and value and value other people.

 

If we believe that we are made in God's image as a special creation apart from the rest of the created order, that has a different affect on how we view other people.

Believing that God or gods are watching over our every move hasn't stopped humanity from horrible crimes. I think we can work towards a happy life w/o the need for a celestial overseer.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Bonky