dscapp Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) Also notice 1 Sam 28:6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. -- What does this tell us. Edited August 1, 2014 by dscapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted August 2, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2014 Also notice 1 Sam 28:6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. -- What does this tell us. "Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor (1 Samuel 28:7) Saul was the first king of Israel and he started out good but scripture shows us that he ended badly. This in the OP is dealing with the very night before Saul died. He committed a sin on this particular night and in my opinion was worst than all the sins that he committed in his life prior to this particular night. That sin of course you can see in the scripture. Which was this "he went to a woman that had a familiar spirit" (a witch). Saul was seeking to get information on what was going to happen on the very next day as King Saul was going to have to face the Philistines (the enemy) on the battlefield. The battle of Mount Gilboa in which Saul died in. The night before this battle took place Saul wants to go see a witch or sorceress in order if possible to get some information on what was going to happen. Saul could see that this battle was going to be a dreadful one. Saul knew that the armies of the Philistines was way more as they out numbered his own army. Saul wants to prepare for the battle so he goes to visit this woman at Endor who is a witch. Now I can see that there are several reasons why Saul went to see the witch. It however is very strange that Saul should have gone to this woman with a familiar spirit to start with. I mean after all he was the King over Israel the people of God and of course going to see witches was something the people of God "did not" practice. It was the pagans and heathens that practiced going to see witches who have no knowledge of the true God. Saul as I said was over the people of God and they HAD GOD WITH THEM in their nation. They had the bible or at least part of it to read for themselves. They didn't need to go to witches to find out the will of God THEY HAD IT. They also had prophets who were filled with the spirit of understanding and they could be sought out to give knowledge of the will of God. They also had the "Urim" and "Thummin" (1 Samuel 28:6) being the verse you brought up. The Urim and Thummin were two stones fastened onto the breastplate of the High Priest. These stones were given by God so the people of God could consult and know the will of God. Now I can't tell you how it was that they worked so I want even guess at it. But some how or another the Urim and Thummin stones on the chest of the High Priest were given by God as a means of guidance to show his people what to do. So to me it is very strange that the King of Israel should be going to see a witch but nevertheless that is what I see. They too had the ten commandments, the old testament scriptures, the prophets, the priests, the sacrifices and all of them things they didn't need to go to witches. But still in spite of all that King Saul went to see a witch. Then it was a strange thing to me that Saul would consult a witch also because God had forbidden them to consult witches. God had commanded absolutly for them not to do it. Saul was living in a old testament time period where scripture stated (Exodus 22:18) that they were not to allow witches to live. Saul was King in a period of old testament history God said this "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". If a person back then was found to be a witch or a man found to be a wizard God said they must put them to death capitol punishment was to be carried out. There was to be no dabbling in witchcraft of any kind among the people of God be that sorcery, necromancy, superstition as all those who promoted and practiced it were not to be allowed to live. So in light of all that to me it is remarkable that we find even the King of Israel himself going to consult a witch. I can take it even a step further just to see how amazing it is. This very King Saul himself had already put to death nearly all the witches in the whole country. But now the prophet Samuel was dead and the nation of Israel is lamenting his death as they buried him in Ramah. Saul had put away those with familiar spirits, and the wizards out of the land (1 Samuel 28:3). Saul had either driven them out of the country or put them to death. Now to me that's amazing that after Saul had done all that he himself of all things goes to see a witch. Well one thing I do know and that is that you can't expect sinners to be consistent they can do one thing and say another. It was a great sin in Saul and he shouldn't have done it. So what's the explanation for Saul the King of Israel going to see a witch? How do you account for it? Because he knew straight up it was wrong. He himself had supressed those in witchcraft so why does he now go to consult with the witch of Endor? There is only three reasons that I've found thus far. The first one is because he was never brought to faith in God though he was King of Israel he was never converted his life never changed by the grace and power of God. Hey there is such a thing in the bible called "conversion" to faith in God to where it changes your life. Like before faith in God you were a drunkard or wife beater and now their sober and are no longer a violent person their lives were changed and transformed by the grace and power of God. But in the entire life of Saul that never happened. Even though he was king of Israel his life had never been brought to faith in God. So this is worth pointing out that until a person is truly converted to faith in God they never will know how they gonna end up because their heart is full of sin like Saul's heart was full of sin. And a person who hasn't been converted to faith in God can never say what they are going to do in the future because we need the grace and power of God to change us and keep us going in the right direction in life. If we don't got that then we are sure to go astray. I personally don't think Saul was ever brought to the experience of the grace of God in his lifetime although he knew out right it was an evil thing to visit a witch and he did it knowing it was wrong. But then again the reason was because Saul was terribly afraid and when were afraid we do things we normally wouldn't do in other circumstances. Fear had gripped his heart (1 Samuel 28:5) "And when Saul saw the host (army) of the Philistines he was afraid and his heart greatly troubled". It was under the impulse or power of fear Saul acted and did the thing he did on the night before the battle. The reason why Saul went to the witch was also because God no longer was listening to his prayers "And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets (1 Samuel 28:6). Usually or normally in the old testament God when the people prayed to him would answer them by one of these means or another. But scripture tells us that God wouldn't answer Saul's prayers anymore. The reason why was because of his sins. Saul was in fact guilty of tremendous wickedness. If we depise and neglect God breaking His ways or laws God will come to a point where He will say I want listen to your prayers anymore. And in this story this is exactly the predicament that king Saul had gotten himself entangled into. So in an act of desperation, not knowing what to do with fear and terror driving him went and consulted a witch. Which this leads us up to the point in the OP and in the story of what exactly did happen on this night before Saul's death as he and his servants travel down to Endor to see a witch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reformed Baptist Posted August 4, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 235 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/16/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1973 Share Posted August 4, 2014 The Bible still says that Samuel spoke to Saul.... I would find it very disturbing if a Demon passed on information to Saul without us knowing it wasn't Samuel. Actually I would suggest whichever way one reads the passage might lead to a 'disturbing' conclusion. Some might be equally disturbed to by the idea that God would allow Samuel to be summoned back to this world by a medium. However maybe the bible is meant to be a disturbing book on occasions? There are potions of God's word that I do not find easy to read, parts of it that disturb me greatly - for example many of the parts that speak of the eternal judgement of sinners are quite disturbing especially as I consider those I love who are not yet saved! So, to get to my point, just because something is disturbing doesn't mean it is to be rejected! Furthermore, is it true that the Bible doesn't say it wasn't Samuel? I would agree that a simple reading of the text makes it appear that it is Samuel - but are there any clues in the text that might lead us to question that simple reading and investigate further? What I see here is a view that the Dead can't be reached where they are in any fashion and some are reading into what the Word actually says to make things fit with their views on the possibilities.... Eisegesis is certainly a problem, however interpreting scripture with scripture and applying the analogy of faith are hermeneutical necessities when it comes to understanding the word of God. God is not the author of confusion, so if there are more clear passages that say one thing, we must apply that understanding to passages that might be more difficult. The question therefore is, what does the Bible say about people coming back in this fashion, does it present it as a possibility? Obviously in my view Saul understood it to be Samuel, and we are not told that it was not Samuel...... but if it makes you more comfortable with the subject carry on with your views..... We are not told out right that it was not Samuel - but again are we being asked to 'do theology' here and look at it a little more deeply. As for my view, well I haven't said what my view is - in truth I don't actually believe the real identity of the 'apparition' is of great importance to the text at all - the passage seems to me to be focused upon the Saul's misdirected desperation and the hopeless misery of one abandoned by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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