dscapp Posted August 2, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 Idioms are figures of speech and in this case it is drawn from scriptures. He is using the language of Isaiah to make a point about hell. He is not literally referring to what is being described in Isa. 66. He is drawing from it. It was probably a cultural idiom that the people would have recognized. So I guess it's safe to say that Mark 9:43-48 is the best proof of eternal hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Idioms are figures of speech and in this case it is drawn from scriptures. He is using the language of Isaiah to make a point about hell. He is not literally referring to what is being described in Isa. 66. He is drawing from it. It was probably a cultural idiom that the people would have recognized. So I guess it's safe to say that Mark 9:43-48 is the best proof of eternal hell? I don't know if it is the best, but I think it illustrates that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 2, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 It was most likely written in Greek but with a Hebrew mindset. I'm sorry to keep bothering you. You've been patient bro, I thank you. One last thing I promise. You mentioned the Hebrew mindset. Are you referring to this mindset... In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 It was most likely written in Greek but with a Hebrew mindset. I'm sorry to keep bothering you. You've been patient bro, I thank you. One last thing I promise. You mentioned the Hebrew mindset. Are you referring to this mindset... In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time. That is what Olam means, but its application is a another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 2, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 It was most likely written in Greek but with a Hebrew mindset. I'm sorry to keep bothering you. You've been patient bro, I thank you. One last thing I promise. You mentioned the Hebrew mindset. Are you referring to this mindset... In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time. That is what Olam means, but its application is a another story. I don't understand. Why couldn't we use this in Rev 20:10 if John was in a Hebrew mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 It was most likely written in Greek but with a Hebrew mindset. I'm sorry to keep bothering you. You've been patient bro, I thank you. One last thing I promise. You mentioned the Hebrew mindset. Are you referring to this mindset... In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. The word olam is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. A common phrase in the Hebrew is "l'olam va'ed" and is usually translated as "forever and ever" but in the Hebrew it means "to the distant horizon and again" meaning "a very distant time and even further" and is used to express the idea of a very ancient or future time. That is what Olam means, but its application is a another story. I don't understand. Why couldn't we use this in Rev 20:10 if John was in a Hebrew mindset. I can find places where olam is used, particularly with reference to eternal life and I can promise you that you would not want olam applied in manner that would suggest that eternal life isn't really eternal. Word usage always trumps word meaning. We use words all of the time that have nothing to do with what the word actually means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 2, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 I can find places where olam is used, particularly with reference to eternal life and I can promise you that you would not want olam applied in manner that would suggest that eternal life isn't really eternal. Word usage always trumps word meaning. We use words all of the time that have nothing to do with what the word actually means. Ok, thank you so much for your time shiloh. You have helped me understand. I'm back on your side now bother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted August 2, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I just did. I am not talking about Isa. 66 thus your question is a nonstarter. Your questioned was premised on something I didn't intend to say. I don't need answer a question based on something I didn't actually say. Ok so let's start over then. In Isa 66:24, do you believe Jesus wasn't giving us a picture metaphor about the fire dump in Jerusalem? If so why? Also, what does 'worm' refer too..worm that does not die. Is the worm their soul? Isa. 66 has nothing to do with Gehenna. It is talking about the dead bodies that will litter the ground after the war of Armageddon. Note. v. 15. Jesus quotes Isaiah 66 and calls it Gehenna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I just did. I am not talking about Isa. 66 thus your question is a nonstarter. Your questioned was premised on something I didn't intend to say. I don't need answer a question based on something I didn't actually say. Ok so let's start over then. In Isa 66:24, do you believe Jesus wasn't giving us a picture metaphor about the fire dump in Jerusalem? If so why? Also, what does 'worm' refer too..worm that does not die. Is the worm their soul? Isa. 66 has nothing to do with Gehenna. It is talking about the dead bodies that will litter the ground after the war of Armageddon. Note. v. 15. Jesus quotes Isaiah 66 and calls it Gehenna. No, he is just borrowing the imagery in Isaiah 66. He is not saying that Isa. 66 is referencing Gehenna as in the field of Hinnom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted August 2, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I just did. I am not talking about Isa. 66 thus your question is a nonstarter. Your questioned was premised on something I didn't intend to say. I don't need answer a question based on something I didn't actually say. Ok so let's start over then. In Isa 66:24, do you believe Jesus wasn't giving us a picture metaphor about the fire dump in Jerusalem? If so why? Also, what does 'worm' refer too..worm that does not die. Is the worm their soul? Isa. 66 has nothing to do with Gehenna. It is talking about the dead bodies that will litter the ground after the war of Armageddon. Note. v. 15. Jesus quotes Isaiah 66 and calls it Gehenna. No, he is just borrowing the imagery in Isaiah 66. He is not saying that Isa. 66 is referencing Gehenna as in the field of Hinnom. You keep saying that but there's no reason not to take it literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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