Butch5 Posted August 5, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Except that I can go to the Scriptures and prove that the Owlam events did end, thus proving the writers of those dictionaries incorrect. Jer 31:38-40 38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever." Isa. 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. 24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." I agree with shiloh. Both of those passages are referencing the millennial period. Isa 66 isn't talking about the new heavens and new earth. Isaiah is comparing the perpetuity of the new heavens and new earth with the perpetuity of Israel's future offspring. Read verse 22 carefully it is only making a comparison. There will no moon in the new heavens and new earth so v. 23 cannot referencing that eternal time period. From shiloh - Isa 66:24 - This is not Gehenna. Evidently, after the war of Armageddon, they will simply burn the bodies in the field where they lay. There is no call for this to be an example of Gehenna. If that were the intent the author would have told us so. You need to let the Bible speak for itself rather than attempting to assign values to the text. The text is using a bit of hyperbole to make the point that the fire is going to burn a long time, well into the milennium and people will be able to see the carcasses and it will serve as a reminder of what happened to those who rebelled against the Lord. There is no connection here to Gehenna/Hell. Me - What are your thoughts on Mark 9:43-48 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44]b 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46]c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where “ ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ Yes, Isaiah 66 is speaking of the millennium, however, there's no reason to expect anything to change after that. There most certainly is a connection between Isaiah 66 and Gehenna. Jesus quoted Isaiah 66 and called it Gehenna. The quote contains a logical fallacy. Regarding the passage in Mark 9 the Scripture says the fire shall not be quenched. To quench a fire means to put it out, it doesn't mean it will never go out. As far as the worm or maggot is concerned I don't really see why people get stuck on that. What does the worm have to do with the person? There will be a moon in the new heavens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted August 5, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Yes, I can show them wrong. No you can't because no one is claiming that Olam doesn't have an end in certain contexts. Yes, I can because a word cannot has opposing meanings. If a word had opposing meanings then it couldn't be used to communicate. Also, inflection doesn't change the definition of a word, only it's use. I didn't say anything about inflection. I said nuance. Hebrew is very nuanced. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Word usage trumps word meaning. You really should check before you claim people don't know what their talking about, it could turn out to be embarrassing. It doesn't matter how nuanced a word is the means don't oppose each other. A word cannot have opposing meanings that is just logical. Ultimately it is about word usage, not meaning. Olam can mean one thing depending on a particular usage and it can meaning something else depending on another usage. That may be but one meaning can't oppose the other. You keep talking about exegesis, well I have to wonder about yours if you claim a word can mean infinite and not infinite. I notice you make a lot of claim but don't back them up. Which shows you clearly don't understand how to handle the biblical languages. Even our English word "love" can be used in a way that means, "hate." I understand just fine, but I not sure you do. Do you want owlam life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 5, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 Yes, Isaiah 66 is speaking of the millennium. If it's speaking of the millennium only, then what about the dead bodies after the millennium. The great white throne hasn't happened yet. Regarding the passage in Mark 9 the Scripture says the fire shall not be quenched. To quench a fire means to put it out, it doesn't mean it will never go out. As far as the worm or maggot is concerned I don't really see why people get stuck on that. What does the worm have to do with the person? There will be a moon in the new heavens. But Mark 9:43-48 is clearly referring to hell. No there will be no moon or sun on the new earth. The glory of God will be our light.. Rev 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted August 5, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Yes, Isaiah 66 is speaking of the millennium. If it's speaking of the millennium only, then what about the dead bodies after the millennium. The great white throne hasn't happened yet. Regarding the passage in Mark 9 the Scripture says the fire shall not be quenched. To quench a fire means to put it out, it doesn't mean it will never go out. As far as the worm or maggot is concerned I don't really see why people get stuck on that. What does the worm have to do with the person? There will be a moon in the new heavens. But Mark 9:43-48 is clearly referring to hell. No there will be no moon or sun on the new earth. The glory of God will be our light.. Rev 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. I don't believe it's only speaking of the millennium. Jesus said that wicked will be destroyed there. The wicked are those in the White throne Judgment, Mark 9 is referring to Gehenna, Jesus specifically called it Gehenna. Rev 21:23 says the city has no sun or moon. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it1, for the glory2 of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. (Rev 21:23 NKJ) It doesn't say there will be no sun or moon. There will still be an entire earth outside of the city. I suspect the reason the passage says that there will be no sun or moon in the city is because the light of God will dwarf the light of the sun or moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 5, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 (edited) It doesn't say there will be no sun or moon. There will still be an entire earth outside of the city. I suspect the reason the passage says that there will be no sun or moon in the city is because the light of God will dwarf the light of the sun or moon. You're grasping at straws Butch. Why create a new sun and moon if there's no use for them. Think think.. Rev 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. Isa 60:19-20 The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end. New moon has nothing to do with being "new" as in re-created. Isa 66:23 is describing a new moon every month, (month to month) in the millenium. It has nothing to do with the new earth. What do these translations say, month to month...http://biblehub.com/isaiah/66-23.htm Edited August 5, 2014 by dscapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted August 6, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted August 6, 2014 It doesn't say there will be no sun or moon. There will still be an entire earth outside of the city. I suspect the reason the passage says that there will be no sun or moon in the city is because the light of God will dwarf the light of the sun or moon. You're grasping at straws Butch. Why create a new sun and moon if there's no use for them. Think think.. Rev 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. Isa 60:19-20 The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end. New moon has nothing to do with being "new" as in re-created. Isa 66:23 is describing a new moon every month, (month to month) in the millenium. It has nothing to do with the new earth. What do these translations say, month to month...http://biblehub.com/isaiah/66-23.htm Well, he may mean month to month, but there has to be a way to determine the months, thus the moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 6, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 Well, he may mean month to month, but there has to be a way to determine the months, thus the moon. Ok, so do you still believe there will be a sun and moon on the new earth or that isa 66:22-24 is speaking of the millennium only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted August 6, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Well, he may mean month to month, but there has to be a way to determine the months, thus the moon. Ok, so do you still believe there will be a sun and moon on the new earth or that isa 66:22-24 is speaking of the millennium only. I do believe the sun and the moon will be there. There will still be the festivals and the like in the kingdom and I suspect into eternity and the sun and moon are set for times and seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 6, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) n/a Edited August 6, 2014 by dscapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 6, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 I do believe the sun and the moon will be there. There will still be the festivals and the like in the kingdom and I suspect into eternity and the sun and moon are set for times and seasons. But I can't find any scriptures that state what you believe, that there will be a sun and moon on the new earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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