Guest shiloh357 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 But then I suspect the reason for your rejection of this is your definition of the church, as opposed to the accepted definition of the church which is simply the one called out by God from every generation, tribe and tongue throughout time. Before Israel existed as a person there was a church - it's first members were Adam and Eve, for a time that church was largely restricted to one family, then one nation (Israel) but never exclusively so, then in the NT era the church enters into a new epoch of it's existence. So, of course, if you narrowly define the church by how it looks in that epoch you will struggle to find it anywhere but in that epoch - the question is can you justify that narrow definition from God's word? Where does the Bible offer that definition of the Church? You call it the accepted definition. Accepted by who? It might be accepted by some in certain denominations but to assume that it is THE definition accepted church-wide would be rather presumptuous. It might be the accepted view in your reformed circle, but you need to presume that everyone shares that view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Of course there is no mention of the specific word 'church' in the OT, it would be anachronistic for one to expect there to be! However, as I have demonstrated linguistically, it appears that the concept was there, and must have been there, or else what both Jesus Christ and Stephen said without explanation would have been nonsense to everyone who heard - However it meant something to them because the concept was something that was familiar to them, just two references from the English translation of the LXX will suffice to make this clear: Deuteronomy 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the Church. Deuteronomy 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the Church, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. It's interesting because, "Church" isn't a translation of ekklessia. The word "Church' is a teutonic word and it has no connection to the Greek word, ekklesia. The word "Church" comes from the old Teutonic/Germanic/Gaelic "kirke" which means "circle." The ancient druids worshiped the sun in a kirke on the first day of the week. So really your references are don't impress me at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted August 4, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Quote Oakwood Now that they have their own homeland again, Satan concentrates on trying to destroy Israel. The lies told about Israel are preposterous. Israel is falsely accused of being a terrorist state or an apartheid state, but anybody with any knowledge of the facts knows that these claims are ludicrous. Hopefully it is not wrong to feel a little sympathy for the Palestinians. I know the events of the past 70 or so years have been very complicated, but honestly, can't we have a kinder, gentler existence? I know there are vicious things being done, often in God's Name, but so many innocents have suffered on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 4, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 4, 2014 The way I define the term "Israel" is per God's Word in Genesis involving God's Promised Salvation by Faith that He first gave through Abraham, which then continued to Isaac, and then to Jacob. The word itself means those who prevail with God's help. Isaac said to his son Jacob... Gen.28 3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. Then God appeared to Jacob in a dream... Gen.28 13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. The same Blessing God first gave to Abraham was transferred to Jacob from his father Isaac, and then God made it official in those Gen.28:13-14 verses. The later in Gen.32, Jacob wrestled with the Angel of The Lord, and prevailed, and with the blessing he received was given the new name Israel... Gen.32 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Thus the real... meaning of the name Israel was first and foremost, and always will be, about God's Promised Salvation by Faith that He first gave to Abraham. God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be the carriers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ and defenders of The Faith once shown to Abraham that God would accomplish His Promise as He said. Abraham believed and God counted it to Abraham as righteousness. That Promise is not to be hoarded or used to exalt God's chosen seed of Israel that He established to be carriers and defenders of The Gospel, but the Promise is to all seeds, to all peoples on the earth that believe by Faith as Abraham did, and by this all the families on the earth are blessed (Gal.3 further defines this point, as does Rom.9 by Apostle Paul). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Thus the real... meaning of the name Israel was first and foremost, and always will be, about God's Promised Salvation by Faith that He first gave to Abraham. That has nothing to do with Israel. Abaraham was a Gentile when He was justified before God. Israel is later and is only counted through Jacob, not Abraham. You have a definition of Israel that the Bible doesn't offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted August 4, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Quote Oakwood Now that they have their own homeland again, Satan concentrates on trying to destroy Israel. The lies told about Israel are preposterous. Israel is falsely accused of being a terrorist state or an apartheid state, but anybody with any knowledge of the facts knows that these claims are ludicrous. Hopefully it is not wrong to feel a little sympathy for the Palestinians. I know the events of the past 70 or so years have been very complicated, but honestly, can't we have a kinder, gentler existence? I know there are vicious things being done, often in God's Name, but so many innocents have suffered on both sides. Did I ever say that there should be no sympathy for the Palestinians? They are just victims of Islam, like all the other Muslims in this World. They are not victims of Israel. What is being done by Muslims is not in God's name - it is in the name of the false god Allah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted August 4, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted August 4, 2014 The way I define the term "Israel" is per God's Word in Genesis involving God's Promised Salvation by Faith that He first gave through Abraham, which then continued to Isaac, and then to Jacob. The word itself means those who prevail with God's help. Isaac said to his son Jacob... Gen.28 3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. Then God appeared to Jacob in a dream... Gen.28 13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. The same Blessing God first gave to Abraham was transferred to Jacob from his father Isaac, and then God made it official in those Gen.28:13-14 verses. The later in Gen.32, Jacob wrestled with the Angel of The Lord, and prevailed, and with the blessing he received was given the new name Israel... Gen.32 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Thus the real... meaning of the name Israel was first and foremost, and always will be, about God's Promised Salvation by Faith that He first gave to Abraham. God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be the carriers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ and defenders of The Faith once shown to Abraham that God would accomplish His Promise as He said. Abraham believed and God counted it to Abraham as righteousness. That Promise is not to be hoarded or used to exalt God's chosen seed of Israel that He established to be carriers and defenders of The Gospel, but the Promise is to all seeds, to all peoples on the earth that believe by Faith as Abraham did, and by this all the families on the earth are blessed (Gal.3 further defines this point, as does Rom.9 by Apostle Paul). You've merely stated the purpose of Israel here, which I don't disagree with. That is not the same as a definition. The purpose of Israel is to select a body of chosen people through whom salvation would be offered to everybody (they gave us Jesus Christ). That does not mean that their definition is anything other than being the seed of Jacob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscapp Posted August 4, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 253 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/20/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 4, 2014 First, how do you view Israel (Jews)? Second, how would you respond to this friend? God bless, GE I will support Israel until the day I die. My people Israel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted August 4, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 4, 2014 The way I define the term "Israel" is per God's Word in Genesis involving God's Promised Salvation by Faith that He first gave through Abraham, which then continued to Isaac, and then to Jacob. The word itself means those who prevail with God's help. Isaac said to his son Jacob... Gen.28 3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. Then God appeared to Jacob in a dream... Gen.28 13 And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. The same Blessing God first gave to Abraham was transferred to Jacob from his father Isaac, and then God made it official in those Gen.28:13-14 verses. The later in Gen.32, Jacob wrestled with the Angel of The Lord, and prevailed, and with the blessing he received was given the new name Israel... Gen.32 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Thus the real... meaning of the name Israel was first and foremost, and always will be, about God's Promised Salvation by Faith that He first gave to Abraham. God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be the carriers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ and defenders of The Faith once shown to Abraham that God would accomplish His Promise as He said. Abraham believed and God counted it to Abraham as righteousness. That Promise is not to be hoarded or used to exalt God's chosen seed of Israel that He established to be carriers and defenders of The Gospel, but the Promise is to all seeds, to all peoples on the earth that believe by Faith as Abraham did, and by this all the families on the earth are blessed (Gal.3 further defines this point, as does Rom.9 by Apostle Paul). You've merely stated the purpose of Israel here, which I don't disagree with. That is not the same as a definition. The purpose of Israel is to select a body of chosen people through whom salvation would be offered to everybody (they gave us Jesus Christ). That does not mean that their definition is anything other than being the seed of Jacob. But I did... define the meaning of the name Israel, even per God's Word involving Jacob and his wrestling with the Angel of The Lord Who gave him the new name. But obviously some here think otherwise than God's Word. And if you read all of what I showed, the Promise of Salvation began with Abraham. That was the same Blessing given to Isaac, and then to Jacob. Thus the name Israel = those entrusted to carry The Gospel of Jesus Christ to all peoples, and thus prevail with God like Jacob did. This is why Apostle Paul used the expression "commonwealth of Israel" in Eph.2 about Gentile believers on The Faith. It is why Paul said what he did in Rom.9 that those of The Promise are 'counted' for the seed. So how is it any of the seed of Israel would want to change that commission from God, and try to make that name only mean the seed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted August 4, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Did I ever say that there should be no sympathy for the Palestinians? They are just victims of Islam, like all the other Muslims in this World. They are not victims of Israel. What is being done by Muslims is not in God's name - it is in the name of the false god Allah True in part. The stop to violence must be bilateral. Thousands of years later, we still have not learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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