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Godspells

Heaven and Hell

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It seems recently a lot of stirring on this subject has occurred. I'm always interested to find Christian's perspective on the afterlife. I particularly find the arguments for annihilation, and I myself hopefully believe in universal reconciliation. 

 

What are you're thoughts about where we go when we die? 

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It seems recently a lot of stirring on this subject has occurred. I'm always interested to find Christian's perspective on the afterlife. I particularly find the arguments for annihilation, and I myself hopefully believe in universal reconciliation. 

 

What are you're thoughts about where we go when we die? 

 

Please explain what you mean by the concept you mentioned of universal reconciliation and how it relates to heaven and hell?

My thoughts off the top of my head are the Bible has a lot to say about eternal salvation and eternal life. :)

God bless,

GE

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 Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting (αἰώνιον) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰώνιον) life." (NKJ)

 

The word of God is clear and provides absolutely no wriggle room on this issue at all, it is either eternal punishment or eternal life - and this life determines where the next will be spent! 

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The cross created an ark of salvation and its capacity is enough to save EVERYONE. I hope everyone makes it as all Christians should. And presently I know no other way that God will be properly glorified, but I think that with a fallible human mind and I could be wrong.

 

In any case, Annihilation theology fits scriptural doctrine fairly well including Mathew 25.

Edited by Godspells
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My friend, I would suggest you are wrong on several counts.

 

 

 

The cross created an ark of salvation and its capacity is enough to save EVERYONE.

 

I don't find that in my Bible, rather i find that Christ died for a certain groups of people. 

 

Joseph was told to call Mary's child Jesus because he would save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21 - Joseph was been told that the work of the cross would actually be effective, not just potentially effective, for a specific group. Turning to John 10 is becomes clear that Jesus Christ also understood this to be his mission, look at what he says in v11  "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. (NKJ) 

 

 

 

 I hope everyone makes it as all Christians should.

 

Should we desire something that God does not? 

 

 

 

And presently I know no other way that God will be properly glorified, but I think that with a fallible human mind and I could be wrong. 

 

It is not up to us to reason out how God would be best glorified, especially not when his word tells us how he will be glorified :D

 

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,  (NKJ)
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I'm not sure if an unsaved person spends eternity in hell or not.  Here's why:

 

Jesus says to fear the one who can destroy the soul. When that same word (destroy) is used elsewhere, it means to annihilate....to no longer exist.

God speaks of the eternal punishment. Now, most people read that as you will be punished for eternity. However, it can also mean just what it says, that the punishment is eternal. Meaning, the punishment never changes. It's the same punishment since the beginning of time and everyone who is not accepted into heaven will be subjected to the same punishment. So, it's the punishment that is eternal, not the soul.

Jesus tells a parable in Luke 12 where the slave knew his master's will and knowingly disobeyed. This slave received many lashes. The slave that did not know his master's will and disobeyed received few lashes. If everyone is cast into the same hell, how can there be "many" or "few" lashes?

Lastly, Jesus really only promises His followers one thing: eternal life. It seems like an empty promise if you have an eternal soul living in hell. I don't believe the creator of the universe would promise you something that you already have.

Anyway, that's my take on hell. If I were somehow forced to make a decision right now, I would say that a soul does not spend eternity in hell. The soul would be punished for a time (few vs. many lashes), and then be destroyed. I don't plan on knowing firsthand though. smile.png

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My friend, I would suggest you are wrong on several counts.

I don't find that in my Bible, rather i find that Christ died for a certain groups of people. 

 

Joseph was told to call Mary's child Jesus because he would save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21 - Joseph was been told that the work of the cross would actually be effective, not just potentially effective, for a specific group. Turning to John 10 is becomes clear that Jesus Christ also understood this to be his mission, look at what he says in v11  "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. (NKJ) 

 

 

Should we desire something that God does not? 

 

It is not up to us to reason out how God would be best glorified, especially not when his word tells us how he will be glorified :D

 

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,  (NKJ)

 

 

I assume you are a Calvinist, which I am not, so we will probably not come to an understanding here, but nevertheless, I will address your assertions. 

 

In the early Church the term "Catholic" was applied which means universal, that is Christianity is a universal, world-wide religion, and the first one ever such. Christ died so that "whosoever believes in Him" has eternal life. The death was for all humanity should we choose to accept it. 

 

God does desire all to be saved, in fact it says the phrase almost verbatim. 

 

I believe that when someone repents and turns to God, it glorifies Him. If everyone repents and turns to God, how much more would that glorify Him? That is my logic, and perhaps I miss a key element, but I'm not pretending to be infallible. 

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I'm not sure if an unsaved person spends eternity in hell or not.  Here's why:

 

Jesus says to fear the one who can destroy the soul. When that same word (destroy) is used elsewhere, it means to annihilate....to no longer exist.

God speaks of the eternal punishment. Now, most people read that as you will be punished for eternity. However, it can also mean just what it says, that the punishment is eternal. Meaning, the punishment never changes. It's the same punishment since the beginning of time and everyone who is not accepted into heaven will be subjected to the same punishment. So, it's the punishment that is eternal, not the soul.

Jesus tells a parable in Luke 12 where the slave knew his master's will and knowingly disobeyed. This slave received many lashes. The slave that did not know his master's will and disobeyed received few lashes. If everyone is cast into the same hell, how can there be "many" or "few" lashes?

Lastly, Jesus really only promises His followers one thing: eternal life. It seems like an empty promise if you have an eternal soul living in hell. I don't believe the creator of the universe would promise you something that you already have.

Anyway, that's my take on hell. If I were somehow forced to make a decision right now, I would say that a soul does not spend eternity in hell. The soul would be punished for a time (few vs. many lashes), and then be destroyed. I don't plan on knowing firsthand though. smile.png

 

Indeed. The ancient Hebrews had no concept of hell. And I think immortality of the soul being the default state of humanity has been accepted as a given in Christianity even though that is not clear. But then again, tradition has overwhelmingly held eternal torment. 

 

Annihilation, though, does not discount hell, it simply perceives that the soul is destroyed in hell and therein lies the eternal punishment. That doctrine fits quite well with the scriptures that otherwise indicate something contrary to eternal torment. 

 

I myself hold the Orthodox opinion that the unrighteous are temporarily cosigned to hades until the resurrection, upon which whatever state we have assigned ourselves to in this life, either self-serving or God-serving will determine how we experience the everlasting presence of God (i.e. hell or heaven). As CS Lewis contended, there are two types of people, those who say to God, "Thy Will be done" and those to whom God says, "Thy will be done".

 

I also assert that hell is consequential not punitive. It is, in a sense, the terminal stage of a disease called sin. Not the retribution of an angry God.  

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My friend, I would suggest you are wrong on several counts.

I don't find that in my Bible, rather i find that Christ died for a certain groups of people. 

 

Joseph was told to call Mary's child Jesus because he would save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21 - Joseph was been told that the work of the cross would actually be effective, not just potentially effective, for a specific group. Turning to John 10 is becomes clear that Jesus Christ also understood this to be his mission, look at what he says in v11  "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. (NKJ) 

 

 

Should we desire something that God does not? 

 

It is not up to us to reason out how God would be best glorified, especially not when his word tells us how he will be glorified :D

 

Romans 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,  (NKJ)

 

 

I assume you are a Calvinist, which I am not, so we will probably not come to an understanding here, but nevertheless, I will address your assertions. 

 

In the early Church the term "Catholic" was applied which means universal, that is Christianity is a universal, world-wide religion, and the first one ever such. Christ died so that "whosoever believes in Him" has eternal life. The death was for all humanity should we choose to accept it. 

 

God does desire all to be saved, in fact it says the phrase almost verbatim. 

 

I believe that when someone repents and turns to God, it glorifies Him. If everyone repents and turns to God, how much more would that glorify Him? That is my logic, and perhaps I miss a key element, but I'm not pretending to be infallible. 

 

He desires universal salvation Yes.  I can confirm I have also learned Catholic means universal.  Not referring to the RCC

 

1 Timothy 2:4

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

1 John 2:2

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

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I also assert that hell is consequential not punitive.
 
It is, in a sense, the terminal stage of a disease called sin.
 
Not the retribution of an angry God. 

 

~

 

The Justice Of A Just God

 

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

 

Or The Mercy Of A Gracious God

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

 

The Choice Is

 

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

 

Yours

 

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 1 Corinthians 5:20-21

 

Love, Joe

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