Matthew 24, for Jews or for Christians?

[Defending the Name]

Hello again Salty,

The remainder of your statements are presented here along with my replies:

Your Statement 3:

Wrong.

Die once and then after this the judgment per Hebrews 9. That Scripture does not tell us there that judgment is immediately after flesh death. Because so many events are written to occur prior to the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev.20, we know Christ must reign a thousand years AFTER His second coming per the Scriptures. If what you say were true, then that "thousand years" reign would have been over around 1029 A.D. per your false reckoning that Christ's second coming happened in His Apostle's days.

My reply to statement 3:

Look closely at Hebrews 9:27-28

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The context is in verse 28, where the appearing of The Lord is based conditionally when we are presented before him the second time without sin. This verse is based on the conditional appearance of The Lord to the faithful in Christ who after death, puts on the incorruptible body as one of the many holy ones (white cloud that he comes with). The first time the faithful in Christ is born from an earthly mother and thereby inheriting the sin of Adam, whereas the second time without sin is when the faithful in Christ wears the celestial post resurrection body. Christ is sinless and so the statement the second time with sin unto salvation is a message to the believers in Christ who are living. So flesh death must first occur before we are presented before The Lord, for we will not come with our earthly raggy garments before his Holiness and Majesty Christ Jesus.

The rest of what you state is out of context and unrelated to the verse in question.

Your Statement 4:

Funny how you chose to only quote that part of 1 Cor.15, when Apostle Paul later there goes into great detail about the time of Christ's second coming on the "last trump" change "at a twinkling of an eye".

What Paul was preaching there in those 12-18 verses was because some among them didn't believe in any resurrection of the dead, which was a false doctrine that the Sadduccees held. It was in regards to Christ's crucifixion and resurrection by The Father, thus sealing His gift by Faith on Him for the remission of sins. It wasn't about the subject of His second coming.

My reply to statement 4: (my commentary is in brackets)

1 Corinthians 15:46-57

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

(Saint Paul goes at great length to try and convey that the first man of the earth is completely separate from the second man from heaven, for earthly have their own domain and the heavenly have their own domain. The heavenly is our permanent destination, whereas the earthly is only temporary.)

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

(Saint Paul elaborates further that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Christ. So it should be clear according to the prophesy in Daniel 2:44 that Christ's kingdom consists of the second man from heaven, for the first man of the earth cannot enter in, unless they first die and then be raised as the second man from heaven. This is why Christ throughout scripture is portrayed as coming with the white cloud, where the white cloud are his holy ones who are the second man from heaven.)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

(Saint Paul confirms that there is no death when the earthly body perishes, by saying "we shall not all sleep", meaning that when we die we don't fall asleep like the old covenant believers did, when The Lord had not yet come. So Saint Paul is comforting the believer that when they die, the process of being transformed from the first man of the earth to the second man from heaven will be instantaneous WITHOUT DELAY.)

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? -- The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Saint Paul states a condition of entry to the kingdom of Christ is that the corruptible must put on incorruption. It would be a literal joke if Saint Paul is poetically singing the song, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?", if he has been rolling in his grave for the last almost 2000 years asleep. Apostle Paul would not sing the song of victory if he did not believe that the transformation was not immediate after he died, otherwise his previous statement "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" has no contextual meaning what so ever if it is for a future appointed time that would make Saint Paul's song of victory over death as a 2000 years in the making joke, because that would mean he has slept for the last almost 2000 years.)

Final comment as a reply to statement 4 is that your exegesis of 1 Corthinians 15 is completely adhock and has no contextual basis to the intended recipients of the letter, who were those still alive in Saint Paul's days. This means that when he stated that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" is to them and not to a future generation who are waiting for a future resurrection of the dead. This means the message applied to those recipients who would behold the transformation without suffering to taste death, meaning to fall asleep. That is what Jesus said to those standing around him when he said some standing here will not taste death after they see the Son of Man going into his heavenly kingdom.

Your Statement 5:

Then by that crazy idea, there could never be any more saints gathered by Christ Jesus after that point, which of course is a huge falsehood. You're not preaching Christian Doctrine. You're preaching the false doctrines of Lucifer.

My reply to statement 5:

Your forgetting that the Holy Spirit as witnessed in Romans 8:9-11 is the one who raises you from the dead and he presents you before the risen Christ the second time without sin, for he is the sanctifier of the faithful in Christ and the resurrector. When the tombs to the old covenant saints were opened and they were taken into the Holy City heavenly New Jerusalem, as promised to the Old covenant saints. This is their promised Land and Judah was the first to be salvaged by Christ at his first and only coming. When he initiated the long awaited resurrection of the dead, then all new convenant believers after death, as Saint Paul testified in the 1 Cor 15 "shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" immediately into the second man from heaven. So the reaping of the harvest of God encompasses the entire new covenant age and that is why Jesus said for all new covenant believers, that died after he went into his heavenly kingdom, will not taste death. That is why Saint Paul could sing the song of victory over death by saying:

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

The only Messiah that will manifest within the earthly realm is the devil who is also known as Lucifer. The real messiah is here with us in Spirit and He is the Holy Spirit who raises us up and presents us before the risen lord as one of the many holy ones (white cloud).

The love of the truth is believing in this message for it is the true testimony of one of the servants of The Lord.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Defending the Name

[Salty]

Quotes by Defending the Name

 

 

 

My reply to statement 1:

If there is a silent rapture, then why can't there be a silent trumpet that declares the passing of an individual from the earthly life. Secondly you are confusing the Lord's Appearing for this event, because the Holy Ghost was already here and Saint Stephen was said to be a faithful full of the Holy Ghost. This event is after Pentecost and not within the 40 days that you had mentioned. Jesus revealed himself to Saint Stephen when he died during the time the Holy Ghost was present in him. (Romans 8:9-11)

 

 

 

My reply to statement 2:

Firstly I can see your argument is based on a faulty premise, that being that you believe that ALL his saints are gathered in one go, then as you commented by saying obviously that did not happen. The very fact that you used the faulty premise to then conclude with denying Saint Stephan's testimony, which is rather concerning to me.

No such thing as a "silent rapture" of the Church, nor a "silent trumpet". You're imagining things.

 

When saint Stephen was being stoned and saw Jesus, that was not Jesus appearing to the world as required for His second coming per Rev.1:7. The cases of people near death seeing into the other dimension are plentiful. We're even given one by Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.12.

 

The one-time gathering by Christ Jesus of His Church at the end of this world is NOT... a "faulty premise" as you say. It is written, but you have chosen to not heed those Scriptures as they are written, but have chosen to default to something else. Nor have I denied saint Stephen's testimony of Acts 7, that is YOU TELLING A FALSEHOOD NOW.

 

I don't often have to resort to this level of rebuke, but in a case like yours it is warranted. When you make up lies to try to discredit while pushing false doctrine, that reveals there's no hope for me helping you come to the simplicity of God's Word. You are obviously here to push false Preterist doctrines of men that began by a few men back in the 15th - 16th centuries A.D. It was false then, and it's still a false doctrine today. The main reason is because there is an abundance of both Old and New Testament Scripture about Christ's second coming to gather His saints and then take reign over all this earth, over ALL peoples.

[Defending the Name]

Salty this is the problem, where in scripture does it teach a one-time gathering by Christ Jesus of His Church at the end of this world?

These are the conditions that you have placed on scripture:

1) one-time gathering of the church

2) happens ONCE at the end of the world

3) gathering together of both dead and living at the SAME TIME

[iamlamad]

Salty this is the problem, where in scripture does it teach a one-time gathering by Christ Jesus of His Church at the end of this world?

These are the conditions that you have placed on scripture:

1) one-time gathering of the church

2) happens ONCE at the end of the world

3) gathering together of both dead and living at the SAME TIME

There is a small problem:

 

1 Thes. 4 tells us of a ONE TIME gathering of the Church.

It happens, not at the END of the world, but at the end of the church age, and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord.

It is CLEARLY a gathering of both the dead and living at the same time.

 

My question to you, Defending the Name, is why you are fighting against a scripture that is written so clearly? (Or am I missing your stance on this?)

 

¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

What is difficult to understand here?

1) the Lord descends from heaven to the earth with a SHOUT, an archangel with Him and with the trumpet sound of God.

2) The dead in Christ - all who have died believing in Jesus as savior - will rise.

3) One instant later, those that remain alive and are in Christ will be changed and rise to meet the dead in Christ IN THE AIR.

4) From this moment one, they will ever be with the Lord.

 

Now, let's go on:

 

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 

Note that there is only two verses between the classic rapture verse (17) and the mention of the Day of the Lord. WHY would Paul tie these two events so closely together?

 

Paul now compares two groups of people and what will happen to each at this SUDDEN EVENT of the rapture. Those living in darkness, not born again, get "sudden destruction," and NONE will escape it. Why? It will be a world wide earthquake - the very same earthquake we read of at the 6th seal.

 

Those living in the light at this sudden event of the rapture of the church, get to be raptured and then get to "live together with Him." (So shall we every be with the Lord.)

 

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

Notice that Paul shows us this "sudden destruction" that will catch all those left behind as a snare, will be the wrath of God. If we go and read at the 6th seal, we read the same thing: the great earthquake is the beginning of God's wrath.

 

Therefore, DON"T EVEN SAY that there will be no rapture: it is written clearly in black and white. And DON'T EVER think it will be at the end. Rather it will be the trigger for the start of the Day.

 

LAMAD

 

You see, what Paul has done is show us that the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord.

[Defending the Name]

Iamlamad,

Read:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You stated:

"1 Thes. 4 tells us of a ONE TIME gathering of the Church.

It happens, not at the END of the world, but at the end of the church age, and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord.

It is CLEARLY a gathering of both the dead and living at the same time."

Firstly the dead and the living are not gathered at the same time, as it states those living unto the coming of The Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep, meaning dead. This means the dead rise before those who still remain alive. What is the time frame from the dead to those who still remain alive, if the Lord's coming is a ONE TIME EVENT?

It simply doesn't make sense. The only way that it will make sense is that if there is a TIME separation between the dead who rise first to those very end day elect who remain on a God forsaken earth to be finally translated into their heavenly bodies. The Lord's gathering encompasses a time interval from the first fruits, right up to the remaining elect who are alive. This is what scripture calls the time of the reaping of the great harvest of God. Therefore this time interval encompasses from the first fruits (144,000 old covenant Jews), Saint Stephan as the first martyr of the new covenant, going right down to the very last remaining elect. Friend you are behind the eighth ball, for the trumpet has been sounding for almost 2000 years and counting. This will continue to happen until the brilliant coming of Christ where he will sound the seventh trumpet and declare time no longer. The church is caught up with him in heaven as his angelic bride and not according to an earthly millennium reign, because where Christ is, his angelic white cloud also accompanies him. The Lord descending with the shout of the archangel Michael is as the seventh angel sounding his trumpet. This is the finale that is relevant to the last remaining elect and not those who had previously died and been raised in their own time when their earthly body died.

This is not a one instance later event where the living join their previously dead brother and sisters, who had been raised before them. There is no contextual merit for a time instant event, you can not separate the raising of the dead and the living by an infinitesimal time instance. Please rethink and reflect upon your statement.

You stated:

"Note that there is only two verses between the classic rapture verse (17) and the mention of the Day of the Lord. WHY would Paul tie these two events so closely together?"

Good question and the reason behind this is that Saint Paul is giving a summary of the time frame encompassing the reaping of the great harvest from the previous new covenant believers who had previously dead, right up to those still remaining alive before the seventh trumpet is sounded by Christ. This is a summary and not a one time event for both the dead and the living. You are putting your own assumption that it is a one timed instance event. From the language itself Saint Paul is providing two categories for the dead and for the living and these are tied to different events that separate the last remaining end of harvest elect from those who have previously been reaped during the entire time period of the reaping of the great harvest of God. The great harvest of God is not a one time or instant event, it is when Christ opened the fifth seal and initiated the long awaited resurrection of the dead when he arose from the dead, almost 2000 years ago.

Remember Saint Paul comforted the immediate recipients of his letters who were alive in his time; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, meaning we shall not stay dead, but will be immediately in a twinkling of an eye be transformed in the heavenly body. Saint Paul isn't talking about physical death here, but spiritual death after the earthly body dissolves. Saint Paul looked beyond the fleshly body, because when he mentions that the faithful will not all sleep, is already alluding that they have already passed from the earthly life, therefore sleeping in context after the earthly body dissolves, is when the person is in a sleep state and separated from the conscious presence of God. In this case Saint Paul is saying they will immediately be raised without delay and be in the conscious presence of Christ.

You based your whole notion of the dead and the living on the following statement:

"Paul now compares two groups of people and what will happen to each at this SUDDEN EVENT of the rapture. Those living in darkness, not born again, get "sudden destruction," and NONE will escape it. Why? It will be a world wide earthquake - the very same earthquake we read of at the 6th seal."

Please understand that the dead and living are all redeemed by The Lord, meaning they are saved and have nothing to do with the wicked as you tried to associate the verse with, when describing the two groups. The dead and the living are all saved, Saint Paul is talking about the faithful and not the condemned living in darkness. Your taking things out of context. You can not impose what you are stating on two versus of scripture alone. You need to have a solid back bone to scriptural interpretation and can not pick and choose your own story, it is not a choose your own adventure book and you are not the narrator.

[Sister]

Iamlamad,

Read:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

 

DefendingtheName,

 

Together they meet, at the same time, at the last trumpet (7th), not the eighth or 800th trumpet, because there are only 7 trumpets,

and the wrath of God starts once the world has received the Mark of the Beast, and the end time saints persecuted.

There are no trumpets before this.  The trumpets are the signs of the end,

The dead are raised first, then those alive quickened, and together they are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

This is the order of the majority in Christ.

 

However, the first fruits are separate from these two groups, the dead in Christ, and those alive in Christ at his coming,

that's why they are called the first fruits.  They are not the majority, but the minority.

and they are not Jewish blood, but spiritual Jews,

 

Galatians 3:28   There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

The 144K are alive when they are sealed, just before the wrath starts.  They are not taken up anywhere just yet but will be here during the wrath, protected, as in the days of the passover.  I think they will keep their heads.

Notice is says they follow the lamb, wheresoever he goes, and not followed, as in already happened.

Because they are alive when the sealing takes place, and not dead. 

The sealing is their protection,  because they have already made their robes white, therefore they will not have to go through death to be purified.

 

Revelation 14:4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

 

They are not defiled with women (religion) and they are virgins (not broken in by other gods)

These will be the wise virgins who had oil in their lamps and were ready, so to speak,

and Jesus gave so many clues in his parables, saying he comes as a thief in the night, so be ready, for we do not know what hour the thief comes,

well this is the hour, the sealing,

for we all know the signs of his coming, it's in the scriputres,

You know the order,

after the beast comes, and the false prophet emerges, and the mark is issued,

and the saints killed, and then the 7 trumpets and vials in detail,

and the false prophet building his temple,

and the 2 witnesses preaching in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years,

and the gathering of the armies

and the FP temple declared finished,

and the 2 witnesses killed, and after three  1/2 days resurrected, and the world will see, then Christ will come, on the 7th trumpet, that day in the same hour.

See no mystery,

 

 

but no one knows exactly when the sealing of the 144,000 will take place?  And one thing for sure it's before the wrath of God with the 7 angels, and could even be before the FP shows his face, anytime soon.

 

[iamlamad]

 

Iamlamad,

Read:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

 

DefendingtheName,

 

Together they meet, at the same time, at the last trumpet (7th), not the eighth or 800th trumpet, because there are only 7 trumpets,

and the wrath of God starts once the world has received the Mark of the Beast, and the end time saints persecuted.

There are no trumpets before this.  The trumpets are the signs of the end,

The dead are raised first, then those alive quickened, and together they are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

This is the order of the majority in Christ.

 

However, the first fruits are separate from these two groups, the dead in Christ, and those alive in Christ at his coming,

that's why they are called the first fruits.  They are not the majority, but the minority.

and they are not Jewish blood, but spiritual Jews,

 

Galatians 3:28   There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

The 144K are alive when they are sealed, just before the wrath starts.  They are not taken up anywhere just yet but will be here during the wrath, protected, as in the days of the passover.  I think they will keep their heads.

Notice is says they follow the lamb, wheresoever he goes, and not followed, as in already happened.

Because they are alive when the sealing takes place, and not dead. 

The sealing is their protection,  because they have already made their robes white, therefore they will not have to go through death to be purified.

 

Revelation 14:4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

 

They are not defiled with women (religion) and they are virgins (not broken in by other gods)

These will be the wise virgins who had oil in their lamps and were ready, so to speak,

and Jesus gave so many clues in his parables, saying he comes as a thief in the night, so be ready, for we do not know what hour the thief comes,

well this is the hour, the sealing,

for we all know the signs of his coming, it's in the scriputres,

You know the order,

after the beast comes, and the false prophet emerges, and the mark is issued,

and the saints killed, and then the 7 trumpets and vials in detail,

and the false prophet building his temple,

and the 2 witnesses preaching in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years,

and the gathering of the armies

and the FP temple declared finished,

and the 2 witnesses killed, and after three  1/2 days resurrected, and the world will see, then Christ will come, on the 7th trumpet, that day in the same hour.

See no mystery,

 

 

but no one knows exactly when the sealing of the 144,000 will take place?  And one thing for sure it's before the wrath of God with the 7 angels, and could even be before the FP shows his face, anytime soon.

 

 

Sorry, but you are very mistaken. There is a HUGE difference between the 7th trumpet in Revelation and the "last trump" of the rapture. Will God collect all the trumpets off the earth and from heaven after Revelation's 7th trumpet, so it will be the absolute last trumpet EVER SOUNDED? Will He also remove even the memory of trumpets so no trumpet will ever be created again? That is what would have to happen if the 7th trumpet was absolutely the last trumpet ever sounded.

 

Of course this is silly - but it makes a point. When Paul wrote "the last trump," it must mean the last of a SERIES or the last in some time period, such as the last trumpet sound in the church age. It could never be the last ever, until God collect all trumpets, else some child might make a sound from a trumpet and make God a liar. Neither is the "last trump" the same as the 7th trumpet, even though the 7th is the last in THAT series. There IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. That theory is MYTH. There is no gathering at the 7th trumpet; that theory is also myth. It is very likely that Paul's "last trump" means the very last of the church age, for the moment the rapture is accomplished, it is the Day of the Lord, and NO LONGER the church age. So indeed, it will be the very last trumpet of the church age.

 

You wrote, "there are only seven trumpets. Yes, indeed there are only 7 OF THAT SERIES. But God is not going to collect all trumpets after that 7th has sounded.

 

the wrath of God starts once the world has received the Mark of the Beast,

 

This is simply NOT TRUE. Go back and see where John begins God's wrath: it is at the great earthquake that begins the Day of the Lord, which is at the 6th seal. The mark will not be establish and enforced until AFTER chapter 14 which is AFTER the midpoint of the week.

 

Good point! You are right: the together is Paul's "gathering."

 

The 144K are alive when they are sealed, just before the wrath starts.  They are not taken up anywhere just yet but will be here during the wrath

 

They are protected during the trumpet judgments, which is a PART of God's wrath. Then they are caught up near the midpoint of the week as firstfruits of the Hebrews.  There is no mystery as to when they are sealed either. It will be immediately after the pretrib rapture and just before the first trumpet judgment. Actually, the Wrath of God begins with the great earthquake at the 6th seal, but they are sealed after this earthquake and before the 7th seal that opens the 70th week. If they were born again before the rapture, they would have been caught up with the church. I am convinced it is the rapture that convinces them that Jesus really IS their messiah, so they turn to Him then.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

Salty this is the problem, where in scripture does it teach a one-time gathering by Christ Jesus of His Church at the end of this world?

These are the conditions that you have placed on scripture:

1) one-time gathering of the church

2) happens ONCE at the end of the world

3) gathering together of both dead and living at the SAME TIME

 

I don't have to go into explanations of Scripture like 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15, Rev.1, 2 Thess.2, John 14 and many more Scriptures about the day of Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church, since you're a denier of God's Holy Writ, and you will not be gathered by Jesus anyway unless you repent.

[Sister]

Sorry, but you are very mistaken. There is a HUGE difference between the 7th trumpet in Revelation and the "last trump" of the rapture. Will God collect all the trumpets off the earth and from heaven after Revelation's 7th trumpet, so it will be the absolute last trumpet EVER SOUNDED? Will He also remove even the memory of trumpets so no trumpet will ever be created again? That is what would have to happen if the 7th trumpet was absolutely the last trumpet ever sounded.

 

 

 

Lamad

 

You have a lot of knowledge but not able to put it all together in the right order.  Put the pride aside brother, and see the evidence.

 

1 Corinthians 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This was written before Revelations.  They knew there would be a last trump, but they didn't know how many trumpets.  It was not revealed until Revelations.

Revelations is clear, 7 angels with 7 trumpets.  Revelations reveals the end times, and gives clarity.

 

Revelation 8:2   And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 8:6   And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Revelation 15:1   And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:6   And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Revelation 15:7   And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 15:8   And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Revelation 16:1   And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Revelation 17:1   And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 21:9   And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

 

 

The wrath of God comes in 7 stages, after the Mark is issued.

Revelation 16:2   And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

 

See, it's clear, the wrath starts after the mark is issued.

The trumpets and the vials are the same.  It's the wrath of God.  7 angels only.

This is the only time the trumpets are sounded, because the wrath happens leading up to Christ's return.

What Paul spoke of is referring the last trump.  The 3rd woe, when Babylon is finished off by Christ himself at his coming.  This is when the majority of saints will be picked up together, all at Christ's coming, at the end of it all.

 

but no one knows exactly when the sealing of the 144,000 will take place?  And one thing for sure it's before the wrath of God with the 7 angels, and could even be before the FP shows his face, anytime soon.

 

Of course this is silly - but it makes a point.

 

Silly?

 

When Paul wrote "the last trump," it must mean the last of a SERIES or the last in some time period, such as the last trumpet sound in the church age. It could never be the last ever, until God collect all trumpets, else some child might make a sound from a trumpet and make God a liar. Neither is the "last trump" the same as the 7th trumpet, even though the 7th is the last in THAT series.

There's only one series of 7 trumpets, and it is the wrath of God poured out on Babylon the great, in a certain time period - the very last days, when evil has reached it's peak, and the false prophet is here who has decieved the whole world.

All those who refused to accept Christ and look into the scriptures, will be in darkness not knowing that this prophesy is fulfilled before their very eyes.

No child is going to make the sound of a trumpet.

No one will hear the trumpets, the trumpets are only signs written for us to know what is to follow,

and Christ comes at the last trump, the 7th.

 

 

There IS NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. That theory is MYTH. There is no gathering at the 7th trumpet; that theory is also myth. It is very likely that Paul's "last trump" means the very last of the church age, for the moment the rapture is accomplished, it is the Day of the Lord, and NO LONGER the church age. So indeed, it will be the very last trumpet of the church age.

 

 

 

I am absolutely mind boggled you think this?

If there's a magical rapture, then why does the false prophet have power over all the saints?

Why are they persecuted and beheaded by him for refusing to receive the mark of the beast?

Why do they join their fellow brethren who have died? (in the 5th seal, before the trumpets have even sounded)

You are teaching us to relax, that everything will be ok?

but there are hard times ahead, and a big test coming apon all the christians, if they can walk their talk.

We will all have to make a choice.  Take the mark and live, or refuse it and die.

The majority of saints are going to be killed, not raptured away. 

Why are there some saints still alive at the coming?

Why are they working in the field or at the mill?  Why not raptured earlier?

 

[Defending the Name]

Iamlamad,

Read:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

DefendingtheName,

Together they meet, at the same time, at the last trumpet (7th), not the eighth or 800th trumpet, because there are only 7 trumpets,

and the wrath of God starts once the world has received the Mark of the Beast, and the end time saints persecuted.

There are no trumpets before this. The trumpets are the signs of the end,

The dead are raised first, then those alive quickened, and together they are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

This is the order of the majority in Christ.

However, the first fruits are separate from these two groups, the dead in Christ, and those alive in Christ at his coming,

that's why they are called the first fruits. They are not the majority, but the minority.

and they are not Jewish blood, but spiritual Jews,

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The 144K are alive when they are sealed, just before the wrath starts. They are not taken up anywhere just yet but will be here during the wrath, protected, as in the days of the passover. I think they will keep their heads.

Notice is says they follow the lamb, wheresoever he goes, and not followed, as in already happened.

Because they are alive when the sealing takes place, and not dead.

The sealing is their protection, because they have already made their robes white, therefore they will not have to go through death to be purified.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

They are not defiled with women (religion) and they are virgins (not broken in by other gods)

These will be the wise virgins who had oil in their lamps and were ready, so to speak,

and Jesus gave so many clues in his parables, saying he comes as a thief in the night, so be ready, for we do not know what hour the thief comes,

well this is the hour, the sealing,

for we all know the signs of his coming, it's in the scriputres,

You know the order,

after the beast comes, and the false prophet emerges, and the mark is issued,

and the saints killed, and then the 7 trumpets and vials in detail,

and the false prophet building his temple,

and the 2 witnesses preaching in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years,

and the gathering of the armies

and the FP temple declared finished,

and the 2 witnesses killed, and after three 1/2 days resurrected, and the world will see, then Christ will come, on the 7th trumpet, that day in the same hour.

See no mystery,

but no one knows exactly when the sealing of the 144,000 will take place? And one thing for sure it's before the wrath of God with the 7 angels, and could even be before the FP shows his face, anytime soon.

Thank you Sister,

You stated:

The sealing is their protection, because they have already made their robes white, therefore they will not have to go through death to be purified.

My reply:

The seal in context to the 144,000 is alluding to the figure of speech, to convey that The Lord has already banked them, in his heavenly barn.

Matthew 13:30

Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

The mark cannot have any influence on them, because they are not in the earthly realm. Scripture declares after the sealing of these 144,000, the following happens:

Revelation 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These who were slain for the word of God, rather than for the testimony of the lamb, are the old covenant saints who had previously been departed and waiting for the Messiah's first advent to raise them up from their graves after the fifth seal was opened, to signal the commencement of the long awaited resurrection of the dead. These were given white robes which are the symbol of the Holy Ones, that is Holy Angels that accompany Christ as his white cloud. Therefore these old covenant Saints were asleep in Abraham's Bosom (paradise) and when they were saying to The Lord, how long are you going to wait before judging the inhabitants of earth? They were raised and then were told to be patient until also their new covenant brothers and sisters would also be born and then die as they died, in order to also join them in the wedding supper of the lamb. The white garments are the garments of the guests to the wedding supper of the lamb, so they are post resurrection garments.

Now after the broad summary of the seals in chapter 6, scripture now goes into further detail to who these saints who were slain for the WORD OF GOD are.

Revelation 7:2-4

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

This Holy Angel that ascends from the EAST having the SEAL of the living God, is The Lord himself. The Lord SEALS the group called the SERVANTS OF OUR GOD. This group are called servants where as Jesus told his new covenant believers I no longer call you servants but now call all you friends. So this particular group called the SERVANTS OF OUR GOD are the 144,000 old covenant Jews of all the tribes of the children of Israel. This event is a past event and not future because The Lord has already sealed THROUGH the resurrection of the dead these first fruits who are the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

First fruits means first fruits of the harvest of God, meaning they are the first to be redeemed / reaped from the harvest from amongst men. They sing the sing of Moses that no man living on earth can sing, because they have gone through the experience of death and onto resurrection to now be the guests of the wedding supper of the lamb, wearing the white angelic robes.

1 Corinthians 15:23

But each in turn: Christ (Forerunner), THE FIRST-FRUITS; then, when he comes, those (New Covenant) who belong to him.

Christ is not the fruit of the harvest because the harvest is his, he created all things (John 1:1-4).

Revelation 14:3

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The 144,000 are the FIRST-fruits to be redeemed FROM the earth and so they are those who were raised first and therefore they were reaped from the harvest of God as the first fruits. The reaping of the great harvest of God commenced when the first fruits were reaped meaning SEALED, through the resurrection of the dead, where they were presented before The Lord with white wedding robes of angels the second time without sin (Hebrews 9:28).

Please read on:

Revelation 14:4-6

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Notice after the sealing of the 144,000 through the resurrection of the dead, the angel in sequence after the sealing declares that now the everlasting gospel should be preached to the rest of humanity comprising of the many gentile nations of the world. As Jesus declared salvation did come to the Jews (house of Judah) first as these old covenant saints who were waiting in Abraham's Bosom (paradise) were raised in fulfilment of prophesy (Ezekiel 37:11-14, Daniel 12:1-4, Matthew 27:52-53).

The resurrection of the dead cannot be a one time future event in the making, because The Lord before the close of the odd covenant age, needed to fulfil his promise to the house of Judah and this he did in full. Therefore the time of the reaping of the harvest commenced when the 144,000 were raised after Christ's resurrection, who is the forerunner to the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:23).

Then we have a picture in heaven with also another group joining these 144,000 through the first resurrection:

Revelation 7:9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Notice that in Rev. 14:6 the everlasting gospel was preached onto the gentile nations at large AFTER the SEALING of the first fruits (144,000) of the harvest and this second group are the many gentile nations who have also been SEALED and entered in to the wedding supper of the lamb through the first resurrection, where they now also wear the white robes of the wedding.

What is depicted in the verse that follows are these jubilant two groups both Old Covenant redeemed and the New Covenant redeemed who are said to sing the SONG OF MOSES (144,000h and the SONG OF THE LAMB (Gentile nations) (Rev. 15:3) and are said to:

Revelation 7:14-15

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

It is this particular second group comprising of the many gentile nations of the world who are said to have washed their robes and made them white by the blood of the lamb. The 144,000 who are the Old Covenant SERVANTS OF OUR GOD are not said to have washed their robes and made them white by the blood of the lamb, because they were those old covenant souls waiting in Abraham's Bosom for the first coming of Messiah to raise them up, in which he did just that.

We know that these two groups are now portrayed as the many heavenly hosts, the white cloud that Christ sits with. These two groups form the great divided mountain congregation of the redeemed, mentioned in Zechariah where the Northern half of the mountain are the former sea (Old covenant) and the Southern half of the mountain are the latter sea (New covenant):

Zechariah 14:4 (Heavenly New Jerusalem)

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

which is before Jerusalem on the east,

and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,

and there shall be a very great valley;

and HALF of the MOUNTAIN shall remove toward the NORTH,

and HALF of it toward the SOUTH.

Zechariah 14:8

And it shall be in that day,

that living waters shall go out from New Jerusalem;

half of them toward the FORMER sea, (Old Covenant, 144,000)

and half of them toward the HINDER sea: (New Covenant)

in summer and in winter shall it be.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Defending the Name